Hebrews 6

[Arial]

Do you apply that same argument to all the “ if we say” passages in 1 John ?

1 John is dealing with false teachings and how to recognize them. He did this by presenting a series of contrasts (the "ifs")and as a measure for their own reassurance that they are Christians.
Those who walk in the light with those who walk in the darkness.
Those who say they have no sin with those who confess their sins.
Those who keep God's commandments with those who do not.
Those who love their brother with those who hate their brother.
Those who love the world with those who do not.
Those who practice righteousness with those who practice sin.
Those who love with those who do not love.
Those who believe God and those who do not.
Those who have Christ and those who do not.

 

[Arial]

Voddie, Sinclair, Sproul

I get a tremendous amount of information and perspectives from Voddie and Sproul and I like both their preaching and expositional styles. Have read some Sinclair but not seen a lot of his videos. Will check out more.

 

[Arial]

When someone isolates Heb 6:4-8 as saying we can lose our salvation they have failed to see all the many places the very same book affirms that they cannot lose their salvation. The long and thorough presentation of the full sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice (9:1-10:18) makes Jesus losing any for whom He died inconceivable.

In addition we have all those passages that affirm that those who have true faith will persevere to the end. We have Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Professing believers have come to share in Christ only if they persevere in that faith to the end. We have Heb 7:25.

Look at Peter and Judas. Both denied Christ. Only Peter was restored. Jesus prayed for Peter. He did not pray for Judas. If Jesus ever lives to intercede for those who draw near to Him in faith, then He will never cease to pray for the truly converted, and the Father will not deny His Son.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I believe they were saved: "Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation." Hebrews 6:9.

I also believe this was a warning to Hebrews about apostasy and encouragement of the supremacy and finality of Christ as the way and as eternal High Priest whose sacrifice makes us perfect forever (those who are being sanctified, Hebrews 10:14.)

I see the letter as
persuading them not to apostasize, by
countering Judaism with the inferiority of the angels and Moses (who both gave the law according to Jewish tradition) in relation to the supremacy of Christ, and
the consequence of rejecting that supremacy.

The whole letter is warning about apostasy, 2:1-4, 3:7-4:13, 5:11-6:12, 10:29-39, 12:14-29.

 

[civic]

When someone isolates Heb 6:4-8 as saying we can lose our salvation they have failed to see all the many places the very same book affirms that they cannot lose their salvation. The long and thorough presentation of the full sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice (9:1-10:18) makes Jesus losing any for whom He died inconceivable.

In addition we have all those passages that affirm that those who have true faith will persevere to the end. We have Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Professing believers have come to share in Christ only if they persevere in that faith to the end. We have Heb 7:25.

Look at Peter and Judas. Both denied Christ. Only Peter was restored. Jesus prayed for Peter. He did not pray for Judas. If Jesus ever lives to intercede for those who draw near to Him in faith, then He will never cease to pray for the truly converted, and the Father will not deny His Son.

They were not “ converted “ until Pentecost. They were all His disciples as the 12. And you cannot compare Peter and judas sins , betrayal and denial. Apples and oranges

 

[Eleanor]

Does that change anything?

It goes to the point there of the authorship of Hebrews.

There is also much in the book that is not consistent with Paul's style. And Paul and the other apostles got their message from Jesus. Gal 1:12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Do you mean until one has the same understanding and comes up with the same purpose of Heb 3:7-4:11 and draws the same conclusions that you do, they can't understand the warnings of Heb 6? In what way have I misunderstood them?

I mean:
1) the key to understanding the purpose of Hebrews lies in an understanding of Heb 3:7-4:13 consistent with all the factors, details stated there,
2) the whole letter is about apostasy, as seen from the strategically positioned warnings therein at 2:1-4, 3:7-4:13, 5:11-6:12, 10:29-39, 12:14-29.

 

[ReverendRV]

When someone isolates Heb 6:4-8 as saying we can lose our salvation they have failed to see all the many places the very same book affirms that they cannot lose their salvation. The long and thorough presentation of the full sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice (9:1-10:18) makes Jesus losing any for whom He died inconceivable.

In addition we have all those passages that affirm that those who have true faith will persevere to the end. We have Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Professing believers have come to share in Christ only if they persevere in that faith to the end. We have Heb 7:25.

Look at Peter and Judas. Both denied Christ. Only Peter was restored. Jesus prayed for Peter. He did not pray for Judas. If Jesus ever lives to intercede for those who draw near to Him in faith, then He will never cease to pray for the truly converted, and the Father will not deny His Son.

Saint Peter is the Poster Boy for Unconditional Election...

Peter’s three Denials ~ by ReverendRV * August 11

Matthew 26:34 NIV; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

Have you ever been a Christian but left the Faith? One survey I read says that 70 percent of college students leave Christianity; that’s a staggering number. Most choose their ‘newfound’ Learning over their old Sunday School Lessons. I have found that because of many ‘oldfound’ teachings of Theology, they do not need to disown Jesus because of new Teachings; but that’s a Gospel Tract for another day. This Gospel Tract is about Saint Peter’s three denials of his Lord. Before his Crucifixion, Jesus told his Disciples that they would be scattered because of him; Peter denied this and said he would never forsake him. Jesus was soon arrested, tried, found guilty, and Crucified. Peter watched the trial from within the crowd, but was soon recognized as a follower of Christ. Out of fright, Peter disowned Jesus three times; denouncing that he knew him. At his third denial, the rooster crowed, and Jesus looked Peter in the eyes; then Peter left, weeping bitterly…

Earlier in Christ’s Ministry, Peter Confessed that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus replied by saying that this knowledge came from God. In the book of John, Jesus says “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me, has Eternal Life and will not be Condemned; he has crossed over from Death to Life.” This is an amazing promise in the light of what happened to Peter; because he denied Jesus three times! In the Bible, the number three represents Completion. This can be seen elsewhere when the Angels of Heaven declare that God is Holy, Holy, Holy; the fullest expression of Holiness. Peter disowned Jesus three times; there was no need for a fourth denial. If anyone could have lost his Salvation, it should have been Peter. You ask, “But doesn’t the Bible say that if you deny Jesus, then you cannot be saved again?” ~ The answer is yes; but do you know whether you are a Judas or a Peter? The Bible tells us that Peter went on to be one of the three leading pillars of the early Church. From the beginning of their relationship, Peter was Justified by Faith in Jesus; and you cannot become unjustified. Peter is the ideal example when it comes to the Unconditional, Eternal Security of Saints…

After Jesus rose from the grave, he asked Peter three questions, the same question three times; “Peter, do you Love me?” Peter answered Yes all three times; another example of Completion. While you still live, you can return to Jesus as Peter did and enjoy the Completeness of your Justification. Perhaps you were not a Christian because you misunderstood the Gospel? We have Sinned against God by Lying, Stealing, committing Adultery, etc. Our Sin causes Death; an Eternal Death in a fiery Hell. But the Godman Jesus Christ lived a Holy, Holy, Holy life obtaining a perfect record which he will trade to you for your Sinful, Sinful, Sinful life's record. Jesus died on the Cross and shed his blood to Atone for Sin. This Atonement is applied by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus as our risen LORD and Savior, apart from any Work we can perform to earn this gift. Be like Peter; and come home…

John 6:68 KJV; Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.”

 

[Wordsmith]

Saul?

Explain what you mean. No-one in the OT was born again as in the new NT.

 

[Wordsmith]

I can judge a man by his doctrines, especially the doctrines of demons and the spirit of antichrist.

You said:

"I’ll even say they have an unclean spirit in them not the Spirit of God."

Sounds to me like you are judging more that false doctrine, you declared somone to be demon possessed. Maybe you do believe in the gift of the Spirit, decreeing of spirits.

You can judge what any man teaches against the Word of God and accept or reject it but you are overstepping by assuming you know any mans heart, motives or position with God.

 

[Eleanor]

Explain what you mean. No-one in the OT was born again as in the new NT.

The Holy Spirit is seen operating in the damned in Scripture, but not indwelling them by rebirth.

 

[GeneZ]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If you are interested I am curious how you understand this passage.

Or anyone actually. This could be a great discussion.

The following passage is essential in needing to be understood before Hebrews 6:4-6 can be understood without a problem.

Acts 21:20-26

​

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ​

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and ​

all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that ​

you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from ​

Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according ​

to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you ​

have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who ​

have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and ​

pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. ​

​

Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, ​

but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the ​

Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should ​

abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of ​

strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”​

​

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. ​

Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of ​

purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them."​

The Jewish believers were in essence crucifying Jesus afresh each time they insisted in returning to the Temple to offer sacrifices!

It got so bad they convinced even Paul to offer sacrifice in the Temple. God almost killed Paul (sin onto death) for doing it.
Because, Paul who understood grace and the Cross better than anyone, was without excuse for what he let himself be talked into.

That was the problem being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6!

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and ​

all of them are zealous for the law. (animal sacrifices! crucifying Jesus afresh!)​

Those Jews were saved. They had been enlightened.
They had tasted the heavenly gift of salvation! But?

Those Jews, would not give up their zeal for the law. .No repentance.
They were stubborn and remained highly religious.

Those Jewish believers went apostate from real Christianity and refused correction.
It had become impossible to bring them back to their senses to repent and correct their ways....

The author of Hebrews was saying in effect....

"Leave them be! They are too far gone! Its impossible anymore to get them to repent.
But.. As for you? Continue on in maturing in Christ and the blessings to come. "

That in essence was what Hebrews 6:4-6 was addressing.

grace and peace!

 

[Arial]

Saint Peter is the Poster Boy for Unconditional Election...

Peter’s three Denials ~ by ReverendRV * August 11

Matthew 26:34 NIV; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

Have you ever been a Christian but left the Faith? One survey I read says that 70 percent of college students leave Christianity; that’s a staggering number. Most choose their ‘newfound’ Learning over their old Sunday School Lessons. I have found that because of many ‘oldfound’ teachings of Theology, they do not need to disown Jesus because of new Teachings; but that’s a Gospel Tract for another day. This Gospel Tract is about Saint Peter’s three denials of his Lord. Before his Crucifixion, Jesus told his Disciples that they would be scattered because of him; Peter denied this and said he would never forsake him. Jesus was soon arrested, tried, found guilty, and Crucified. Peter watched the trial from within the crowd, but was soon recognized as a follower of Christ. Out of fright, Peter disowned Jesus three times; denouncing that he knew him. At his third denial, the rooster crowed, and Jesus looked Peter in the eyes; then Peter left, weeping bitterly…

Earlier in Christ’s Ministry, Peter Confessed that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus replied by saying that this knowledge came from God. In the book of John, Jesus says “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me, has Eternal Life and will not be Condemned; he has crossed over from Death to Life.” This is an amazing promise in the light of what happened to Peter; because he denied Jesus three times! In the Bible, the number three represents Completion. This can be seen elsewhere when the Angels of Heaven declare that God is Holy, Holy, Holy; the fullest expression of Holiness. Peter disowned Jesus three times; there was no need for a fourth denial. If anyone could have lost his Salvation, it should have been Peter. You ask, “But doesn’t the Bible say that if you deny Jesus, then you cannot be saved again?” ~ The answer is yes; but do you know whether you are a Judas or a Peter? The Bible tells us that Peter went on to be one of the three leading pillars of the early Church. From the beginning of their relationship, Peter was Justified by Faith in Jesus; and you cannot become unjustified. Peter is the ideal example when it comes to the Unconditional, Eternal Security of Saints…

After Jesus rose from the grave, he asked Peter three questions, the same question three times; “Peter, do you Love me?” Peter answered Yes all three times; another example of Completion. While you still live, you can return to Jesus as Peter did and enjoy the Completeness of your Justification. Perhaps you were not a Christian because you misunderstood the Gospel? We have Sinned against God by Lying, Stealing, committing Adultery, etc. Our Sin causes Death; an Eternal Death in a fiery Hell. But the Godman Jesus Christ lived a Holy, Holy, Holy life obtaining a perfect record which he will trade to you for your Sinful, Sinful, Sinful life's record. Jesus died on the Cross and shed his blood to Atone for Sin. This Atonement is applied by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus as our risen LORD and Savior, apart from any Work we can perform to earn this gift. Be like Peter; and come home…

John 6:68 KJV; Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.”

It is very difficult for young to adhere to the imperatives given in the Bible as to the righteous behavior for Christians. If they are truly converted they will be restored---not to their salvation but in their salvation. There are probably only a few, and I am not one of them, who have never "backslidden" or had times in their life after conversion that they took their salvation for granted while they engaged in "fun." Outwardly to those standing in judgement there may be no evidence of salvation for a season. In my case, and I suspect it is the norm for those in Christ, it eventually strengthened me and inside the whole time I was very aware that I was hanging on for dear life to God. Sometimes all I could do was start my day with "God I only breathe because you give me breath." My heart never departed from Him. He will keep His own.

 

[civic]

You said:

"I’ll even say they have an unclean spirit in them not the Spirit of God."

Sounds to me like you are judging more that false doctrine, you declared somone to be demon possessed. Maybe you do believe in the gift of the Spirit, decreeing of spirits.

You can judge what any man teaches against the Word of God and accept or reject it but you are overstepping by assuming you know any mans heart, motives or position with God.

I can tell by the spirit behind the message they teach from or speak on behalf of and in the case of Copeland it is demonic. Scripture calls it the testing of the spirits .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

It goes to the point there of the authorship of Hebrews.

I mean:
1) the key to understanding the purpose of Hebrews lies in an understanding of Heb 3:7-4:13 consistent with all the factors, details stated there,
2) the whole letter is about apostasy, as seen from the strategically positioned warnings therein at 2:1-4, 3:7-4:13, 5:11-6:12, 10:29-39, 12:14-29.

It is not so much about apostasy as it is about standing firm in the faith, the reasons we can, the danger of not doing so. Apostasy is just a word used to express departing from the faith.

After going through that mighty theological treatise here comes the big "therefore" in Heb 10:19-39. He follows with a discussion on what faith is and what it looked like in history in chapter 11. Followed in chapter 12 by another "therefore pertaining to all that.verses 1-11. Then another "therefore" and instructions and exhortation and encouragement in verse 12-29.

The book needs to be read as a whole and not segregated parts.

 

[Arial]

They were not “ converted “ until Pentecost. They were all His disciples as the 12. And you cannot compare Peter and judas sins , betrayal and denial. Apples and oranges

Then I suspect your idea of converted is somewhat off. Jesus said "Believe in Me and you will have eternal life." The Holy Spirit is given to the believer, and was given to the disciples at Pentecost, for the purpose of spreading the gospel to all nations. It was given for empowerment to do this, and He is given to all believers for a number of purpose not the least of which is sealing (King's seal)them in Christ.

 

[civic]

Then I suspect your idea of converted is somewhat off. Jesus said "Believe in Me and you will have eternal life." The Holy Spirit is given to the believer, and was given to the disciples at Pentecost, for the purpose of spreading the gospel to all nations. It was given for empowerment to do this, and He is given to all believers for a number of purpose not the least of which is sealing (King's seal)them in Christ.

No conversion until Pentecost when they were in dwelt with the Holy Spirit. No Spirit no conversion, no eternal life

 

[Arial]

The following passage is essential in needing to be understood before Hebrews 6:4-6 can be understood without a problem.

Acts 21:20-26

​

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ​

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and ​

all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that ​

you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from ​

Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according ​

to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you ​

have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who ​

have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and ​

pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. ​

​

Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, ​

but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the ​

Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should ​

abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of ​

strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”​

​

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. ​

Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of ​

purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them."​

The Jewish believers were in essence crucifying Jesus afresh each time they insisted in returning to the Temple to offer sacrifices!

It got so bad they convinced even Paul to offer sacrifice in the Temple. God almost killed Paul (sin onto death) for doing it.
Because, Paul who understood grace and the Cross better than anyone, was without excuse for what he let himself be talked into.

That was the problem being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6!

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and ​

all of them are zealous for the law. (animal sacrifices! crucifying Jesus afresh!)​

Those Jews were saved. They had been enlightened.
They had tasted the heavenly gift of salvation! But?

Those Jews, would not give up their zeal for the law. .No repentance.
They were stubborn and remained highly religious.

Those Jewish believers went apostate from real Christianity and refused correction.
It had become impossible to bring them back to their senses to repent and correct their ways....

The author of Hebrews was saying in effect....

"Leave them be! They are too far gone! Its impossible anymore to get them to repent.
But.. As for you? Continue on in maturing in Christ and the blessings to come. "

That in essence was what Hebrews 6:4-6 was addressing.

grace and peace!

There is much incorrect in you post but the most glaring is that the book of Hebrews never says or gives any indication of any of what you claim concerning the recipients of the letter or of what you said about Paul.

 

[Arial]

No conversion until Pentecost when they were in dwelt with the Holy Spirit. No Spirit no conversion, no eternal life

Why do you think no one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit before Pentecost? For instance why did David plead with God to not take His Holy Spirit from him?

 

[civic]

Why do you think no one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit before Pentecost? For instance why did David plead with God to not take His Holy Spirit from him?

The H.S. Came upon and also left the prophets . That’s why David pleaded with God not to take His spirit away from him. Psalm 51.

 

[GeneZ]

There is much incorrect in you post but the most glaring is that the book of Hebrews never says or gives any indication of any of what you claim concerning the recipients of the letter or of what you said about Paul.

Sorry... you are loosing out on blessings.

That answer nails it!