God’s Omniscience and Predestination

[Carbon]

Suppose we do a bit of supposing.

Suppose there was no plan of redemption. And suppose what happened in Eden did happen and God put them out of the garden. And there was no promise of redemption. That how our world became is how our world would remain, and all people would meet condemnation and face the wrath of God. Would you still say God predestined them to condemnation? Or would you see that the justice of God demanded their condemnation?

Well, first, can we suppose God is sovereign in this scenario? Or no?

 

[Arial]

Well, first, can we suppose God is sovereign in this scenario? Or no?

God is God in this scenario. The one true and living sovereign holy God.

 

[Carbon]

Suppose we do a bit of supposing.

Suppose there was no plan of redemption. And suppose what happened in Eden did happen and God put them out of the garden. And there was no promise of redemption. That how our world became is how our world would remain, and all people would meet condemnation and face the wrath of God. Would you still say God predestined them to condemnation? Or would you see that the justice of God demanded their condemnation?

I would say since there was no plan of redemption everyone is going to get what they deserve.

 

[Carbon]

I would say since there was no plan of redemption everyone is going to get what they deserve.

And since God is God and He is sovereign, it was all predetermined. Predestined.

 

[Carbon]

@Arial
Whatever you want to believe concerning predestination is entirely up to you. Predestination is a decree of God concerning the eternal condition of men which shows His special glory.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9.

But of us believers, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 5:9.

It is called destination because there is a sure determination of the order of means for the end. Because God determined this order by Himself before any actual existence of things, it is called not simply destination but predestination.

It is called a decree because it contains a definite sentence to be executed under a firm council. In the same sense also it is called a purpose and a council, because it sets forth an end to be reached as a result of deliberation.
Predestination is accompanied by the greatest wisdom, freedom, firmness, and immutability. These are found in all the decrees of God. Ames.

As I said, believe what you like. But your examples and feelings just don't have what it takes to change my mind when compared with scripture. So, if you don't mind, I believe how I like also.

 

[Carbon]

@Arial Consider these. Reprobation is the predestination of certain men so that the glory of God's justice may be shown in them.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Romans 9.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4.

 

[Carbon]

God saves some from their certain destination. Predestination is not a specific doctrine of the doctrines of grace. Election is. It is those God elects unto salvation who are predestined----not to election---but to come to the one with saving faith who has died in their place, and purchased them with his blood.

Predestined unto salvation, the elect. Predestined as vessels of wrath, not elect, but reprobate.

 

[fastfredy0]

everyone is going to get what they deserve.

Well, since God determines all things this is without question true. (Potter and clay)
Anyone doubts this, then I assume God answers back with Job 38. (poor Job... poor me ... does go well to 2nd guess God)

So Carbon, you're in accord with "double predestination"?

Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.

 

[Arial]

Predestined unto salvation, the elect. Predestined as vessels of wrath, not elect, but reprobate.

Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and to salvation are are part of the same thing. But the election comes first and I do not think that is what the predestination refers to. They are elected for salvation and it is certain (predestined) that they will be save. The elect are the foreknown. And they are taken out of the reprobate. They begin as reprobate and are brought to Christ. They are born in Adam like everyone else. They are always his sheep, but they must be gathered into the fold---through regeneration and faith in Christ.

We are probably not going to agree on this, and that is a ok. There is a sense in which it could be said that the non-elect are predestined as vessel of wrath. And that is in the sense of what the are not predestined to---salvation.

 

[Arial]

@Arial Consider these. Reprobation is the predestination of certain men so that the glory of God's justice may be shown in them.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Romans 9.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4.

I agree. It is as Williams said, God's wrath is never for the sake of wrath alone, but to make room for grace. It is where justice and mercy kiss. Also, evil is what Christ is conquering on the cross.

 

[makesends]

Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.

That definition leaves out equality of intent, which is not implied in Scripture —quite the contrary is implied, actually. God's purpose in creating the reprobate was not their condemnation, but his glory, and that, shown to the objects of his mercy. Their condemnation is what it took to do that.

 

[JIM]

The foreknowing is election.

No, it is not.

 

[JIM]

It is the simple math of causation that renders it sure, that whatsoever comes to pass does so by God's causation.

That makes God the author of all evil. That means that God causes every disobedience in every human being. There can be very little that can be more heretical than believing that to be true. That makes man no different than the animals who behave through instinct and yet is condemned to hell for it. It is the spirit of man than makes all of that to be nonsensical.

 

[JIM]

Yes it is a work of the law if its not a work of the Spirit in you. Jesus says Faith is a law work here Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You attribute doing as a work of law. That is simply not the case. We do a lot of things that are not work of law. And besides, you have used another really poor translation/interpretation from the KJV.

(ESV) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

(NASB) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

(NIrV) "How terrible for you, teachers of the law and Pharisees! You pretenders! You give God a tenth of your spices, like mint, dill and cummin. But you have not practiced the more important things of the law, like fairness, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the last things without failing to do the first.

(NIV) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

 

[JIM]

And since God is God and He is sovereign, it was all predetermined. Predestined.

A really bad concept of the sovereignty of God.

Equating divine sovereignty with omnicausality is arbitrary and antibiblical. Instead of causation, the key word for sovereignty is control. God is sovereign in the sense that he is in control of every event that takes place among creatures, whether he actually causes it (which is often the case), or simply permits it to happen (instead of preventing it, which he could do if he so chose). Either way God is “in charge”; he is in full control over his creation; he is sovereign.

Neither the word nor the concept of your view of the "sovereignty" of God appears in the scriptures.

A biblical term specifically equivalent to sovereignty is “kingdom,” the basic meaning of which is “kingship, lordship, rule, dominion.” God’s sovereignty is naturally and properly understood in terms of kingship. “The LORD reigns!” (1 Chr 16:31; Ps 93:1-2; 96:10; 97:1; 99:1; Isa 52:7). “The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all” (Ps 103:19).

(NASB) The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.

(KJV) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

(ESV) The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.

 

[Carbon]

Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and to salvation are are part of the same thing. But the election comes first and I do not think that is what the predestination refers to. They are elected for salvation and it is certain (predestined) that they will be save. The elect are the foreknown. And they are taken out of the reprobate. They begin as reprobate and are brought to Christ. They are born in Adam like everyone else. They are always his sheep, but they must be gathered into the fold---through regeneration and faith in Christ.

We are probably not going to agree on this, and that is a ok. There is a sense in which it could be said that the non-elect are predestined as vessel of wrath. And that is in the sense of what the are not predestined to---salvation.

I have to disagree. The elect were never a reprobate, and a reprobate is never an elect.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.

That definition leaves out equality of intent, which is not implied in Scripture —quite the contrary is implied, actually.

???? well, maybe I don't understand your definition of "equality of intent" .... but the statement treats 'election' and 'non election' the same as I read it. It says both are "proactive", "balanced" and "equally active in choosing".

God's purpose in creating the reprobate was not their condemnation, but his glory, and that, shown to the objects of his mercy. Their condemnation is what it took to do that.

Agreed

 

[Arial]

I have to disagree. The elect were never a reprobate, and a reprobate is never an elect.

We are entering into the territory of definition of words and how each of us is applying them. The same is true with predestination.

Everyone is born a sinner. A sinner is the type of being humans are. The elect are no different in that respect. I admit I probably shouldn't have used the word "reprobate" in the way that I did. I have an excuse!

I was only posting that late because Boaz (dog) was having gastrointestinal troubles and woke me up to go outside. I was posting while I waited, half asleep and not really into it.

Back to subject. The elect must be placed in Christ, by God, through faith. That is why I say predestination applies to the elect.They are predestinated to do so.

 

[fastfredy0]

I have to disagree. The elect were never a reprobate, and a reprobate is never an elect.

Agreed. Has to be that way as God is immutable. The elect have always been the elect.

We are entering into the territory of definition of words and how each of us is applying them.

Probably.. *giggle*

 

[Arial]

???? well, maybe I don't understand your definition of "equality of intent" .... but the statement treats 'election' and 'non election' the same as I read it. It says both are "proactive", "balanced" and "equally active in choosing".

This is where I disagree. God must proactively choose the elect. The rest will be left in their natural condition. He doesn't have to choose them.