God’s Omniscience and Predestination

[Carbon]

One of the reasons I don't like the tag, 'Determinist', is this very subject. Then notion that God created for the purpose of creating a people for himself isn't a problem for most people. The problem is that when they heard that God pre-determined all things, they jump immediately into the idea of whether it makes sense for the God of Love to create the reprobate for the purpose of their damnation. That is not why he created, but rather, to make a people for himself. The fact that he created the reprobate for their purpose has everything to do with him creating his people for himself —as you showed from Romans 9. The reprobate were created, and damned, to demonstrate God's glory to the objects of his mercy. Without having created those reprobate, those to whom he showed mercy would not know his mercy in the same regard as they will know with the reprobate being part of his creation.

This is not a matter of chance, but, as all things with God, a matter of purpose.

Amen

 

[Carbon]

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9.

 

[Carbon]

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9.

This has nothing to doo with God causing man (the reprobate) to sin, they sin because they freely choose to.

 

[fastfredy0]

they sin because they freely choose to.

Freely? as meaning they choose to do so and were not influenced by God? ... as meaning self-determined they would sin?

 

[makesends]

Probably

I surely wouldn't bring it up there.

God's mercy is unfathomable.

One thing always remains from such questions: God will not give to anyone worse than they deserve. We can count on that.

 

[fastfredy0]

One thing always remains from such questions: God will not give to anyone worse than they deserve. We can count on that.

Hmmm, not very comforting.

 

[Carbon]

Freely? as meaning they choose to do so and were not influenced by God? ... as meaning self-determined they would sin?

Of course, God temps no one to sin.

 

[fastfredy0]

Of course, God temps no one to sin.

I have difficulties with that. On the one hand there a verse saying God tempts no one and on the other hand you have the Spirit leading Christ into the wilderness to be tempted. Your explanation?

 

[Carbon]

I have difficulties with that. On the one hand there a verse saying God tempts no one and on the other hand you have the Spirit leading Christ into the wilderness to be tempted. Your explanation?

Christ was tempted as we all are. He had to suffer all things. The devil is God's devil. Jesus was tempted by the devil.

 

[fastfredy0]

Christ was tempted as we all are. He had to suffer all things. The devil is God's devil. Jesus was tempted by the devil.

Hmmm... so God is the cause of the devil's tempting a person and this distances God to the extent that it can be said He does not tempt anyone?

 

[makesends]

Hmmm, not very comforting.

Perhaps, but if they are right to whatever degree that children, and particularly infants, are innocent, even Reformed theology is happy to say that God is precisely, (albeit thoroughly) just. And to whatever degree God has had mercy on them, in not allowing them to progress further into their rebellion, they will not suffer.

Also, as with the 'brain-dead' alive, in the end, we don't know what God has done in the hearts of those he has taken from this temporal existence. I always feel a bit at a loss to explain that what God passes down in judgement here in this temporal life (such as the flood killing untold numbers of children) is of little relevance in the big picture. Better now than later.

 

[Carbon]

Hmmm... so God is the cause of the devil's tempting a person and this distances God to the extent that it can be said He does not tempt anyone?

All things are created for a purpose, the devil has his purpose. he is God's pawn. The first Adam blew it, God didn't tempt him, the devil did, the second Adam conquered, and God the Father didn't tempt him either.

 

[makesends]

Hmmm... so God is the cause of the devil's tempting a person and this distances God to the extent that it can be said He does not tempt anyone?

Yep. Ahab's story again.

 

[fastfredy0]

And to whatever degree God has had mercy on them, in not allowing them to progress further into their rebellion, they will not suffer.

True .... you're definitely a 1/2 full guy as opposed to 1/2 empty. *giggle*
God is to be feared. I had a pastor who I said that I feared God and he said that 'fear' in Christian means deep reverence. maybe so, but He still scares me too.

 

[fastfredy0]

All things are created for a purpose, the devil has his purpose. he is God's pawn.

Agreed

The first Adam blew it, God didn't tempt him, the devil did

True I suppose, but like Job it was God controlling Satan such that Satan did what God wanted.
Like, if I pay Joe to kill Sam it wouldn't go well for me in court as me saying I was not the direct cause wouldn't go well.
Aside: God is perfect .... I am stuck with seeing things from a human point of view and human experience.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed

Thought o.

True I suppose, but like Job it was God controlling Satan such that Satan did what God wanted.

All God has to do is let Satan be himself.

Like, if I pay Joe to kill Sam it wouldn't go well for me in court as me saying I was not the direct cause wouldn't go well.

Not quite, God doesn't pay Satan to do anything. He lifts His hand of sustaining grace and lets Satan be himself.

Aside: God is perfect .... I am stuck with seeing things from a human point of view and human experience.

Aint we all.

 

[fastfredy0]

All God has to do is let Satan be himself.

well, letting Satan to be himself runs exactly according to God's blueprint. I can create a watch and say it acts on its own but behind the scenes it is working exactly as I designed.

Not quite, God doesn't pay Satan to do anything.

True, nevertheless God controls Satan but not with $$$$.

He lifts His hand of sustaining grace and lets Satan be himself.

...and Satan is himself where God created/designed Satan and Satan works to God design

Aside: Job and his buddies got in heck for surmising these things. You're getting me in trouble *looks out window for lightning* *hesitant giggle*

 

[Carbon]

well, letting Satan to be himself runs exactly according to God's blueprint. I can create a watch and say it acts on its own but behind the scenes it is working exactly as I designed.

True, nevertheless God controls Satan but not with $$$$.

...and Satan is himself where God created/designed Satan and Satan works to God design

Aside: Job and his buddies got in heck for surmising these things. You're getting me in trouble *looks out window for lightning* *hesitant giggle*

Haha. Well, that's how I see it. For now anyway. It's what makes the most sense of what I think I can make sense out of with my pea brain.

 

[JIM]

Let's see: Your god lives within a reality larger than himself, there are things that happen apart from his having created, including self-contradictory things such as causation by chance. Your god is not first cause, after all, but operates subject to greater things than himself, things that came before him.

My God is in control of His creation. Control does not equate to causation. In His control, God allows for the occurrence of some things that He does not cause, such as sin.

Your god, on the other hand, is the author and cause of sin, some of it the most heinous of evil.

 

[JIM]

Sounds like salvation by works, reward for your actions, which contradicts Rom 4:3-4

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Believing is not a work of law.

Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,