God’s Omniscience and Predestination

[Arial]

I would say since there was no plan of redemption everyone is going to get what they deserve.

That is not actually an answer to the questions I asked. Would you say God predestined them to condemnation? Or that the justice of God demanded their condemnation?

 

[brightfame52]

@JIM

You attribute doing as a work of law.

Seems pretty clear to me that Faith is a work of the Law not be left undone Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The word done also means work

 

[makesends]

That makes God the author of all evil.

Only in your mind. But, you continue with your small god, who couldn't help it that things go badly.

That means that God causes every disobedience in every human being.

There is a difference between saying that God causes that there be evil, and God creating evil. Evil is not even of itself properly 'a thing' but the privation of good. Disobedience is a result of James 1's 'desire conceived', and in all people a habit by inherent rebellion.

There can be very little that can be more heretical than believing that to be true.

It's a strawman argument, but, good thing you made it no stronger! I mean, there's the heresy of a less-than-omnipotent God to compare to that one!

That makes man no different than the animals who behave through instinct and yet is condemned to hell for it. It is the spirit of man than makes all of that to be nonsensical.

We like to conjecture on the difference between mere brute beasts and man made in the image of God. The arguments I have heard so far depend entirely on our silly ignorant human point of view; even our arguments citing scripture depend on the individual using the scripture. Some, like you, think that the human categorically —that is, fallen or regenerated— is necessarily still 'in the image of God', which has yet to be proven, (though, admittedly, I think there is something to it). You have all that to work through yet, but then, you have to show that your use of that supposed fact is going to undo the effect of Adam's fall affecting the whole of Creation till the day all things are restored to him, and you have to show how that speculative claim includes such passages as 2 Peter 2:12 and Psalm 32:9 which aptly describe Romans 8's 'mind of flesh'.

"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction..."

"Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle..."

Note, please, that the difference between whatever "free will" and/or intelligence that is endemic to fallen humanity, and that of mere animals, is one of degree, and not of kind.

Lol, strangely, somehow, and probably aptly, on this subject, writing "creation", what rolls off the ends of my fingers is, "cretin".

 

[makesends]

Carbon said:
I have to disagree. The elect were never a reprobate, and a reprobate is never an elect.

We are entering into the territory of definition of words and how each of us is applying them. The same is true with predestination.

Everyone is born a sinner. A sinner is the type of being humans are. The elect are no different in that respect. I admit I probably shouldn't have used the word "reprobate" in the way that I did. I have an excuse!

I was only posting that late because Boaz (dog) was having gastrointestinal troubles and woke me up to go outside. I was posting while I waited, half asleep and not really into it.

Back to subject. The elect must be placed in Christ, by God, through faith. That is why I say predestination applies to the elect.They are predestinated to do so.

Definition: Reprobate

reprobate /rĕp′rə-bāt″/

noun​

1. A morally unprincipled person.
2. One who is predestined to damnation.
3. One morally abandoned and lost.

Carbon is using definition 2;
Arial is using definition 1 or 3, or, I might add, One who is currently heading the direction of 2, and by all appearances is no different from 2.



Definition: Destined; Predestined

destined

adjective​

1. Confined to a predetermined fate or destiny; certain.
2. Headed or intending to head in a certain direction; often used as a combining form as in `college-bound students'
   "a flight destined for New York"
3. (usually followed by `to') governed by fate.
   "he is destined to be famous"

Note that the Cambridge dictionary defines 'Destined' according to intention, alone.

predestine​

verb​

pre·des·tine (ˌ)prē-ˈde-stən

predestined; predestining; predestines
Synonyms of predestine
transitive verb
: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand
especially : predestinate sense 1

 

[fastfredy0]

This is where I disagree. God must proactively choose the elect. The rest will be left in their natural condition. He doesn't have to choose them.

Well, God had to chose Adam and God had to chose to put the unredeemed in Adam and God chose who would never hear the gospel and God chose to pass the reprobate by.

I can have two life jackets and I push 2 people (Romans 11:32) into the water such that two people drowning and I actively throw one life jacket (Christ) to one person and throw a rock (Romans 9:18) to the other person who drowns. Seems I am an active participant; double predestination.

God NOT INACTIVE as it concerns the reprobates. God actively hardens (or blinds) their hearts against himself.
Romans 9:18 "God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills"
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [according to their role] for the day of evil.
Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your heritage.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all,

It is not as if the man could create and control himself while God passively watches him. "In him we live and breathe and have our being".

On a more merry note, bitcoin is up today. *giggle*

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
This is where I disagree. God must proactively choose the elect. The rest will be left in their natural condition. He doesn't have to choose them.

Well, God had to chose Adam and God had to chose to put the unredeemed in Adam and God chose who would never hear the gospel and God chose to pass the reprobate by.

I can have two life jackets and I push 2 people (Romans 11:32) into the water such that two people drowning and I actively throw one life jacket (Christ) to one person and throw a rock (Romans 9:18) to the other person who drowns. Seems I am an active participant; double predestination.

God NOT INACTIVE as it concerns the reprobates. God actively hardens (or blinds) their hearts against himself.
Romans 9:18 "God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills"
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [according to their role] for the day of evil.
Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your heritage.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all,

It is not as if the man could create and control himself while God passively watches him. "In him we live and breathe and have our being".

On a more merry note, bitcoin is up today. *giggle*

You two are not in actual disagreement there, but each emphasizing a point of view. @Arial is correct, as concerns predestination —by human definition, the lost are lost, without further action necessary by God. @fastfredy0 is correct —that condition in which humanity finds itself is by Adam's sin which was by the Serpent's lie which was by God's positive determination/action.

Further, Freddy's look at God's immanence also applies, and I agree with him: There is no action/motion in all creation/the omni, that is not "inhabited" (I say for current lack of a better word) by God actively upholding all fact/reality.

That, however, does not undo Arial's point, that God's primary purpose in creation is not reprobation of anyone, but of glorification of the Elect for God's own glory.

 

[Carbon]

That is not actually an answer to the questions I asked. Would you say God predestined them to condemnation? Or that the justice of God demanded their condemnation?

That’s an answer. Just not an answer you would like.

 

[fastfredy0]

You two are not in actual disagreement there, but each emphasizing a point of view. @Arial is correct, as concerns predestination —by human definition, the lost are lost, without further action necessary by God. @fastfredy0 is correct —that condition in which humanity finds itself is by Adam's sin which was by the Serpent's lie which was by God's positive determination/action.

Further, Freddy's look at God's immanence also applies, and I agree with him: There is no action/motion in all creation/the omni, that is not "inhabited" (I say for current lack of a better word) by God actively upholding all fact/reality.

That, however, does not undo Arial's point, that God's primary purpose in creation is not reprobation of anyone, but of glorification of the Elect for God's own glory.

I vehemently subscribe to the point you make that "fastfredy0 is correct". (giggle) Check is in the mail.

 

[Carbon]

That is not actually an answer to the questions I asked. Would you say God predestined them to condemnation? Or that the justice of God demanded their condemnation?

Since there was no plan of redemption, no salvation. There would be so much more to explain what everything is all about. Therefore everything can only be speculation. In this case there wouldn’t even be a bible.

 

[Arial]

Since there was no plan of redemption, no salvation. There would be so much more to explain what everything is all about. Therefore everything can only be speculation. In this case there wouldn’t even be a bible.

I am just asking if in that scenario---we don't need to go into all the other things that would exist or not exist if the hypothetical were the situation----would you call that predestinated to condemnation or simply God's justice against sin.

But---never mind. Not important.

 

[Arial]

That’s an answer. Just not an answer you would like.

OK Carbon.

 

[Arial]

Well, God had to chose Adam and God had to chose to put the unredeemed in Adam and God chose who would never hear the gospel and God chose to pass the reprobate by.

Sure. But also, he is not choosing who will be reprobate, he is choosing who the elect are. All come from the same pool of sinners and he chooses who to redeem from that pool. And he did so, don't forget, before our world was even created. All I'm saying is that double predestination as a doctrine/theology has some holes that cannot be filled in without penetrating the mind of God beyond his written word. We know God elects some and not all to salvation, and predestines them and that. That is the discussion we have within the scriptures.

And we know that the non-elect will die in their sins and face God's wrath. We know evil is not a creation but the absence of good and good is defined by God's character and holiness. We know that God receives glory in both his judgments and his grace. Without judgement there would be no grace. We know that the end game is creation restored, the creation that Jesus made according to Scripture, and inhabited by the redeemed when all evil is destroyed, the deceiver is destroyed never to return, and the lion grazes with the cow. And best of all, God again dwells among us.

We know all things, every step every man takes, every decision he makes, every event that occurs; all are working towards this purpose. All perfectly governed by God. So why try to solve the unanswered questions by a double predestination theology and doctrine? It brings up more questions to which we do not have the answers, and the idea of it is so misunderstood as to cause many to abandon altogether the treasures in Calvinism and to hate it.

So I am back to an earlier statement: predestination, where it is used in the scriptures is applied to the elect and what they are predestined to become. New creatures in Christ to summarize. It is not applied to election itself. They are called in Scripture, "the elect", "believers", the "called". the "foreknown." And it refers to those who are in Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Sure. But also, he is not choosing who will be reprobate,

Sure He did. Or do you believe God does not have a choice in the matter.

 

[Arial]

Sure He did. Or do you believe God does not have a choice in the matter.

Choosing the elect leaves the rest.

 

[fastfredy0]

Seems to me:

1. God elected/chose everyone to have sin (Romans 11:32)
2. God elected some out of group 1 to be saved.

It's not as if God is inactive in insuring everyone is condemned. In effect there are two elections which God is active upon. It's not as if the entire race was given to God condemned and then He just elected some which would s be passive action in regard to the reprobates; God's actions effected both groups. He chose/elected for all humanity.

It is different if I go to the lake and see 1000 people drowning and save 50 as opposed to me pushing 1000 people into the lake and save 50. IMO

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

So I am back to an earlier statement: predestination, where it is used in the scriptures is applied to the elect and what they are predestined to become. New creatures in Christ to summarize. It is not applied to election itself. They are called in Scripture, "the elect", "believers", the "called". the "foreknown." And it refers to those who are in Christ.

Yet God purposed that the non elect die in their sins and that He would get Glory from it, of His Justice. He made them what scripture calls vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[JIM]

@JIM


Seems pretty clear to me that Faith is a work of the Law not be left undone Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The word done also means work

Eating is a work, but it is not a work of law.

 

[JIM]

Note, please, that the difference between whatever "free will" and/or intelligence that is endemic to fallen humanity, and that of mere animals, is one of degree, and not of kind.

It is most definitely a difference in kind. That difference is due to the spirit of man, which the animal does not possess. You guys and your adherence to the false doctrine of "fallen" humanity.

 

[brightfame52]

Eating is a work, but it is not a work of law.

Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[Carbon]

@Arial



Yet God purposed that the non elect die in their sins and that He would get Glory from it, of His Justice. He made them what scripture calls vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Yep.


Amen