God’s Omniscience and Predestination

[Arial]

Does God’s omniscience mean that He knows all things in the future with absolute certainty?

There is no such thing as the future to God. He knows all things, period, because he ordained all things, created all things, governs all things. It is very difficult if not impossible for humans to think or imagine or describe, outside of time frames. Still---we try. What is time to us is God acting within our history to accomplish his purposes. After the creation account it is sandwiched between the curse of the serpent and the promise of Christ and the goal accomplished that we see in both Is 11 and Rev 21, and have promised to us all along the way.

So, If God knew those that would not accept Jesus to be saved, why did He create them knowing this?

He doesn't tell us. If I were to guess given the final result it is to destroy evil. To kill sin and its results. In the words of Michael D. Williams "God's judgement on sin always takes place for the sake of grace."

If God chose to create unbelievers to be damned for their unbelief, and believers to be saved for their belief, isnt this predestination?

Unbelievers are destined to be damned for their unbelief. It would imo only be predestination if God were the cause of sin. Off the top of my head. I haven't really worked through it. And that would be everyone ever born but for divine election of some for mercy. To me, the predestination is that the elect will come to Christ. They are predestined to be drawn to Christ, to hear, and to believe. Predestined to regeneration. But I may be left of the bullseye.

 

[fastfredy0]

But, is there an age of accountability? Or is the age of accountability just a man made argument?

It's definitely a man-made construct reliant upon biblical deductions of which I am aware of three.

1. There's going to be people in heaven from every nation and tribe. Since some tribes no longer exist and never heard of Christ we assume some made it to heaven then the process to get them there is the "age of accountability".
2. David's infant son dies and David says he will be with him some day. People assume that in heaven and there's great evidence the David ends up there. But then there's the verses of the kings and how they die and are with their fathers .... problem is that not all of Israel's kings end up in heaven as based on the short analysis of how they lived
3. The verse(s) about suffer the little children to come to me for such is the kingdom of God. This is made to fit the 'age of accountability' thought line
4. No based on scripture is the great desire of parent's to be ensured there child that died in it's youth or still born or whatever is in a pleasant place. It would (I'm not allowed to use 'suck' I was told *giggle*) ... it would be difficult to talk at a child's funeral and not favor the 'age of accountability' doctrine.
5. Makes one ponder about abortion as if the 'age of accountability' is true then the consequences for the aborted one highly favorable.

Like universalism, I vote for the 'age of accountability' to be true though God doesn't run a democracy.

so Carbon regarding abortion consider ...
You're a 2 month old fetus and you somehow able to understand the following situation and question ...
You're told you can go directly to heaven provided the "age of accountability" is true with the odds determines by your confidence that that viewpoint is true OR take your chances (narrow is the way and I guess 5% chance of making it) and go to a world that Satan rules and the outcome could be heaven or hell .... what do you chose? (yeah, I know no such thing as "chance" in God's mind, but from your point of view "chance" exists and in this question you don't know you've already been chosen)

 

[Carbon]

There is no such thing as the future to God.

I'm talking from a human perspective.

 

[Carbon]

so Carbon regarding abortion consider ...
You're a 2 month old fetus and you somehow able to understand the following situation and question ...
You're told you can go directly to heaven provided the "age of accountability" is true with the odds determines by your confidence that that viewpoint is true OR take your chances (narrow is the way and I guess 5% chance of making it) and go to a world that Satan rules and the outcome could be heaven or hell .... what do you chose? (yeah, I know no such thing as "chance" in God's mind, but from your point of view "chance" exists and in this question you don't know you've already been chosen)

I'd think it would depend on if I was elected or not. It would have an effect on my decision.

 

[Carbon]

He doesn't tell us. If I were to guess given the final result it is to destroy evil.

So, He would create those whom He knows would not come to Jesus just so He would have some to destroy?

To kill sin and its results. In the words of Michael D. Williams "God's judgement on sin always takes place for the sake of grace."

Unbelievers are destined to be damned for their unbelief.

Yes, pre-destined.

It would imo only be predestination if God were the cause of sin.

Explain?

Off the top of my head. I haven't really worked through it. And that would be everyone ever born but for divine election of some for mercy. To me, the predestination is that the elect will come to Christ. They are predestined to be drawn to Christ, to hear, and to believe. Predestined to regeneration. But I may be left of the bullseye.

Okay. It's not a sin to believe that way.

 

[fastfredy0]

The eternal context of predestination is a reflection of the transcendence of God. He exists beyond the linear flow of this dimension of time that we experience, beyond the constraints of past, present, and future. In other words, he knows our future because he is already there, just as he is simultaneously in our present. There is no unrealized "future" for a God who occupies all of time simultaneously, for whom every moment is present in an eternal "now." In other words, his omnipresence includes both space and time (spacetime).

This is interesting. I can't prove you wrong. I agree God is not limited by time. If you're right then there are existing concurrently over 2 billion copies of me (based on a new copy being created every second ... of course God could create a new me every nanosecond but let's keep it simple *giggle*) ... I suppose that is possible.

I have another model which again is just me hypothesizing (in other words I don't know what I am talking about) .... maybe there is only one Fastfredy0 existing concurrently in a time line that seems consecutive where consecutive means we can predict the future to a degree as in I hit a ball and it goes through the air in a predictable way. Consider ... God could have everything as it is now and then instantly put everything as we would normally perceive it 10 years ahead or 5 years behind. This has God to not be limited by time and to only have 1 instance of me which He can move through time non consecutively if He so desires. There is no need for God to have a billiard ball go or me to go through what we call a normal sequence of events described by observations we summarize via physics. Now, God has things go to the laws of physics not because objects of power in themselves to operate in a given way but because He causes moment by moment to have them operate in a predictable way so dummies like me can try to grasp what the heck is going on in an organized way.

Anyways, that's the model I use ... God's K.I.S.S. rule (Keep It Simple Stupid for dumb humans)

>>>> O.K. going to work on quantum mechanics next.... *giggle*

 

[Arial]

So, He would create those whom He knows would not come to Jesus just so He would have some to destroy?

That is a very odd way of wording it. It is stated in such a way as to make it sound as though God enjoys destroying people and creates them for that sole purpose. It sounds like an Armenian argument. So my answer is a simple no. It violates the very character of God.

Yes, pre-destined.

No destined. Why? Because they are sinners. I think "Predestine" is being applied to the wrong thing and in the wrong place.

Explain?

If he predestines some to condemnation then it can be said that they sin because God predestines them to sin.

 

[Carbon]

If he predestines some to condemnation then it can be said that they sin because God predestines them to sin.

Well, it can be, but that's not the reformed view.

And why would God have to cause anyone to sin, wouldn't their fallen nature take care of that?

 

[Carbon]

Calvin believed that God's eternal decree determines the fate of each person, and that some are predestined to eternal life while others are predestined to eternal damnation.

Do you agre/disagree?

 

[fastfredy0]

I'd think it would depend on if I was elected or not. It would have an effect on my decision.

Oh, you took the easy way out.

 

[fastfredy0]

Calvin believed that God's eternal decree determines the fate of each person, and that some are predestined to eternal life while others are predestined to eternal damnation.

Do you agre/disagree?

I say God determines all things. There no way to know the future completely when nothing exists but you (God) unless you determine it.

 

[Carbon]

Oh, you took the easy way out.

I know, couldn't help myself.

Would you (anyone) show me scripture in support of an age of accountability?

Thanks.

 

[Carbon]

Unbelievers are destined to be damned for their unbelief. It would imo only be predestination if God were the cause of sin. Off the top of my head. I haven't really worked through it. And that would be everyone ever born but for divine election of some for mercy. To me, the predestination is that the elect will come to Christ. They are predestined to be drawn to Christ, to hear, and to believe. Predestined to regeneration. But I may be left of the bullseye.

Yes, pre-destined.

Let's look at the word you usedestined
Webster 1928 version: DESTINED, participle passive Ordained; appointed by previous determination; devoted; fixed unalterably.

Modern diectionary:
1. (of a person's future) developing as though according to a plan.
"she could see that he was destined for great things"
2. certain to meet (a particular fate).
"she was destined to become a life-long friend"
3. intended for or traveling toward (a particular place).
"agricultural exports destined for the United States"

So, again I will say, Yes, pre-destined.

 

[fastfredy0]

Would you (anyone) show me scripture in support of an age of accountability?

I gave 3 passages that support the "age of accountability" which is not to say they conclusively support the idea.
I personally don't believe in the "age of accountability" but I'd be happy to be wrong....I'd like to be wrong when I say universalism is incorrect too.

 

[Carbon]

Unbelievers are destined to be damned for their unbelief. It would imo only be predestination if God were the cause of sin.

@Arial I really do not understand how you come to this conclusion if someone is predestined. Why would God have to be responsible to cause sin if a person is predestined to sin?
Maybe I am just not understanding your meaning.

 

[Carbon]

I gave 3 passages that support the "age of accountability" which is not to say they conclusively support the idea.
I personally don't believe in the "age of accountability" but I'd be happy to be wrong....I'd like to be wrong when I say universalism is incorrect too.

Oh okay, we agree then. I do not believe there is an age of accountability taught in scripture either.

 

[fastfredy0]

Unbelievers are destined to be damned for their unbelief. It would imo only be predestination if God were the cause of sin.

How can God not have determined all would sin if He ensures all have a sin nature? Romans 11:32
How can God not have determined that Adam would sin when He knew in the future Adam would sin and created Adam anyways? He could have created a man and ensured the man didn't sin like He does with 2/3s of the angels or us when we're glorified.
How can God not have determined/known all things if He is eternally omniscient and there was no other source of information but God before His creation?

 

[fastfredy0]

Oh okay, we agree then. I do not believe there is an age of accountability taught in scripture either.

Hmmm ... I think we are in the minority.... I'll throw out 1 in 10 believers though I really have little clue.

Probably preferable at a babies funeral to have a pastor that disagrees with us.

 

[Carbon]

Hmmm ... I think we are in the minority.

Probably

Probably preferable at a babies funeral to have a pastor that disagrees with us.

I surely wouldn't bring it up there.

 

[makesends]

Agreed.

Amen.

I believe He has. 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9.

Okay.

Seems you just don't want to think on a certain part. And, that's okay.

One of the reasons I don't like the tag, 'Determinist', is this very subject. Then notion that God created for the purpose of creating a people for himself isn't a problem for most people. The problem is that when they heard that God pre-determined all things, they jump immediately into the idea of whether it makes sense for the God of Love to create the reprobate for the purpose of their damnation. That is not why he created, but rather, to make a people for himself. The fact that he created the reprobate for their purpose has everything to do with him creating his people for himself —as you showed from Romans 9. The reprobate were created, and damned, to demonstrate God's glory to the objects of his mercy. Without having created those reprobate, those to whom he showed mercy would not know his mercy in the same regard as they will know with the reprobate being part of his creation.

This is not a matter of chance, but, as all things with God, a matter of purpose.