• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Gen 6...who are the sons of God?

You have the accounts presented in the NT of the angels leaving their first estate and their punishment.
Still your interpretation of those events, when there are also other interpretations, that you deny but do not refute. Your presuppositions and choice of belief are always and everywhere behind what you give as evidence.
You have the book of Enoch and the quotes from it found in the Bible.
Only biblical evidence can be considered valid. You have no way of knowing that Jude's quote or any other was expressing the same view as you are. IOW you presume the thought process and meaning to be the same as yours because of things you have read in the book of Enoch.
You have the mentioning of Giants in the OT.
Yes, and that does not have to be explained or mean an angel/human hybrid.
You have archeology recovered concerning Giants.
Maybe you should present this instead of just stating it. I have seen none. Which does not mean it doesn't exist, only that I haven't seen it so cannot comment on it.
You have Gen 6.....we can go deeper if you want.
Like I said, Gen 6 presented as confirmation bias is not evidence.

And we can't go deeper than we already have because you will not address or reason with or through anything I have said on the matter or the evidence that I have given for an alternate view.
 
Still your interpretation of those events, when there are also other interpretations, that you deny but do not refute. Your presuppositions and choice of belief are always and everywhere behind what you give as evidence.

Only biblical evidence can be considered valid. You have no way of knowing that Jude's quote or any other was expressing the same view as you are. IOW you presume the thought process and meaning to be the same as yours because of things you have read in the book of Enoch.

Yes, and that does not have to be explained or mean an angel/human hybrid.

Maybe you should present this instead of just stating it. I have seen none. Which does not mean it doesn't exist, only that I haven't seen it so cannot comment on it.

Like I said, Gen 6 presented as confirmation bias is not evidence.

And we can't go deeper than we already have because you will not address or reason with or through anything I have said on the matter or the evidence that I have given for an alternate view.
I believe the interpretations of Gen six are true. The watcher angels married daughters of men and had giant offspring that became rulers of the antediluvian world. The angel DNA also mixed with human DNA in an attempt to stop the linage of Christ Jesus.

You don't have to believe that.
 
God created the male and female souls in Genesis 1:27.
Its the immaterial invisible soul that was created in His image.

The bodies for those souls were not created out from nothing like the souls in 1:27.
The bodies were not existing until Genesis chapter Two.

The bodies are biological means for the immaterial souls to navigate about in the material world ...
The soul lives on after the body dies.
God created mankind Man and woman as one "let there be" to represent. The Holy Father and His Son . The likeness of God not image figure ..

Eternal God is not a man as us, neither is Eternal Spirit male nor female.

The soul has to do with the communication in relationship of one spirit to another. The soul that sins dies no longer having the breath of Spirit life

Acts 14. . . a commentary on the doctrine of likeness of God as unseen character and image visible of God likeness of dying mankind .

Those who had no faith power of Christ's labor of love (none) coming from of Christ as it is writen (gospel key).

When they as sign and wonder, wonder, seekers witnessed with thier eyes the apostles touching him laying on of hand "a form of prayer or request" and he walks .They attributed the power to the dying flesh and blood of the Apostles . Calling them after the Roman /Greek legion of gods in the likeness. . character of God as if he was a man .

Lucifer the legion the counterfeit copy cat. . of the Christin priesthood( Christ in us), . Barnabas, Jupiter the father of gods Like Moses . Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. . preacher of the gospel Aaron

Exodus 7:1-3King James Version And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.


Acts 147 And there they preached the gospel.(power of God) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith (Christ) to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
 
I believe the interpretations of Gen six are true. The watcher angels married daughters of men and had giant offspring that became rulers of the antediluvian world. The angel DNA also mixed with human DNA in an attempt to stop the linage of Christ Jesus.

You don't have to believe that.
And I don't. If you have decided to believe it, to shut out all biblical evidence that is given as an alternate view, to not even reason concerning that evidence, then so be it. There is no point in anyone offering it. At some point hopefully you will realize that it is a reliance on human wisdom in this area, and subsequently no doubt in many areas, rather than what we are instructed to do---- all of us. To listen so as to learn, letting the Bible and the indwelling Spirit through His word, be our guide. We are not to shut our ears.
 
So He created a species that had no need of reproducing and who were not allowed to reproduce, able to produce offspring?
Apparently so. Just as He has created our own bodies that are capable of reproducing - lawfully within the bounds of matrimony - but also physically possible of reproducing unlawfully by fornication. It is a test. A test that shows us the weakness within all created beings when offered choices of good or evil. Humanity failed this test with eating the forbidden fruit. Some of the angels failed this test by forbidden marriages with human women, and other angels by accepting human worship which caused their fallen condition.

I will ask you this: Anywhere in the Bible before the flood do we see these fallen angels manifesting as men? (The question does not include using your interpretation of Gen 6. It must be other than that.)
Why must it be "other than Genesis 6"? You yourself have allowed that the term "sons of God" as being angels is one of the possible choices of interpretation (as in Job 38:7). With a 50 -50% chance of this term "sons of God" meaning celestial angels, why then is it so unlikely that these Genesis 6 "sons of God" were angels with the bodily appearance of human males? I guess I am finding it difficult to understand why your opposition to this is so vehement, given that you yourself allow that there is a 50 - 50% chance that these "sons of God" in Genesis 6 might be angels instead of human males.

As I have said before, this issue is actually a moot point at present, since God destroyed the entire Satanic realm back in AD 70. There is no danger of this ancient problem re-emerging if Satan with all the evil angels and the unclean spirits have been utterly destroyed.

The rest of this post I will not even stoop to engage with. It has nothing to do with anything.
The Genesis 6 account of the angels producing hybrid angelic / human sons who became giants in the earth has everything to do with why God was so irate concerning the "mark of the Beast" - the Tyrian shekel with that image of a pagan, hybrid demi-god on it. The history of the god Melqart depicted on that Tyrian shekel (who was the main deity of the city of Tyre) is a mock duplication of Christ. Melqart was supposed to have died, and then been resurrected. Tyre's ceremonies in the spring celebrated Melqart's resurrection from the dead.

This was a double slap in God's face for the high priesthood to REQUIRE this Tyrian shekel coin with that pagan hybrid demi-god on it as the only coin accepted in the temple and make the people pay a fee for using it. This requirement was an egregious breaking of God's former commands in Deuteronomy 7 concerning graven images of other gods and the silver or gold that those images were made of.
 
Why?
A black cat and 666 on your billboard?
 
Apparently so. Just as He has created our own bodies that are capable of reproducing - lawfully within the bounds of matrimony - but also physically possible of reproducing unlawfully by fornication.
Apparently? Do you not see that apparently is not how we should arrive at our beliefs and that it only exists in your system because of presuppositions that the Bible will not support in any definitive way. And the comparison you make are two completely different things, involving two completely different types of beings, serving two different purposes in God's economy? A false dichotomy. And it is nowhere stated in the Bible without confirmation bias playing the pivotal role.
It is a test. A test that shows us the weakness within all created beings when offered choices of good or evil. Humanity failed this test with eating the forbidden fruit. Some of the angels failed this test by forbidden marriages with human women, and other angels by accepting human worship which caused their fallen condition.
Again. Pure confirmation bias given as fact. Do we ever see God testing angels, or say He tests angels, in the Bible? No. Do we ever see God saying He tests humans in the Bible? Yes. There is also nothing within the Scripture that says or indicates angels accepted human worship and that that caused them to fall. You would do well to take into consideration these things that I am pointing out. I am not doing it to demean or dismiss you, but to hopefully recognize when you are doing it and learn to not do it. It leads to many distortions of Bible teaching. There is not a one of us who does not sometimes do that very thing, but if it is truth we are after and thirst for, we will learn to catch ourselves. As we grow in the Lord we should find ourselves doing it less and less. We learn to handle the word of God seriously and with reverence.
Why must it be "other than Genesis 6"?
Because you only give it one possible interpretation (yours) and do not consider any other possibilities, when there are other possibilities. It would be good to do your own study---Bible in hand--- and with an honest desire for the truth of the matter. In presenting my view I have made the attempt to reconcile it with the whole counsel of God on all that is involved in the situation. And by not using sources that don't carry the authority that Scripture does, and vain imagination.
With a 50 -50% chance of this term "sons of God" meaning celestial angels, why then is it so unlikely that these Genesis 6 "sons of God" were angels with the bodily appearance of human males?
It isn't a 50/50 chance. It only means one thing and that is what God means. You have to find what God means in this instance by comparing it for example with everything else God says about angels and none of what He doesn't say. And you have to keep the context of what the Bible is in mind. It is the historical progress of the story of redemption (and all that is involved in it through every historical event) from Gen 3 and the curse on the serpent onward. And also the creation account. How it was, what happened, and so on.
I guess I am finding it difficult to understand why your opposition to this is so vehement, given that you yourself allow that there is a 50 - 50% chance that these "sons of God" in Genesis 6 might be angels instead of human males.
There is nothing vehement about my opposition to the possibility that "sons of God" means angels. And I do not agree with a 50/50 chance. I only say that I see how it could be taken that way. If there is any vehemence, and that is certainly not accurate as to how I feel, it is to all the nonsense theories that are nowhere in the Bible being presented as evidence. And that those doing that do not understand it is not valid evidence or that it is no way to rightly handle the word of God.
As I have said before, this issue is actually a moot point at present, since God destroyed the entire Satanic realm back in AD 70. There is no danger of this ancient problem re-emerging if Satan with all the evil angels and the unclean spirits have been utterly destroyed.
Another completely undocumented, unscriptural, teaching stated as fact. And I know that I should take apart that statement and show from Scripture just how false it is. But that changes the subject into something that belongs in eschatology/end times, and requires an in depth detailed, carefully Bible documented effort. Which I could do, because I have searched it out, but like I said, a different topic,different board. So your statement does not really even belong here as it irrelevant to the conversation anyway.
The Genesis 6 account of the angels producing hybrid angelic / human sons who became giants in the earth has everything to do with why God was so irate concerning the "mark of the Beast" - the Tyrian shekel with that image of a pagan, hybrid demi-god on it. The history of the god Melqart depicted on that Tyrian shekel (who was the main deity of the city of Tyre) is a mock duplication of Christ. Melqart was supposed to have died, and then been resurrected. Tyre's ceremonies in the spring celebrated Melqart's resurrection from the dead.
Also a redhering and not applicable to the topic being discussed.
 

Genesis 6​

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Numbers 13

33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

The sons of God in Genesis 6:2,4 were men from the godly families of the righteous descending from Seth to Noah. Their sin was to break their covenant with God and lustfully marry into the wicked families on earth descending from Cain and others. The offspring were famous men in the antediluvian world, and God drowned the earth for this sin and the wickedness of man.

Speculators, rejecting even elementary hermeneutics, assume the sons of God to be angels, which they say came to earth for sexual liaisons with women, resulting in a mongrel super race, which they call the Nephilim. Though God destroyed all living creatures with the Flood in Noah’s day, the consistent speculators find the Nephilim again in Canaan from Numbers 13:33.

Nephilim is a transliterated Hebrew word, occurring in corrupt Bible versions in two places, and subsequently used by some as a name for the mongrel creatures resulting from angels copulating with women according to a false and foolish interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 and Numbers 13:33.

Genesis 6:4 (RV, ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, NSRV, ESV, WEB, HSCB, GW, NCV, NIRV).

Numbers 13:33 (RV, ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, NSRV, ESV, WEB, HSCB, GW, NCV, NIRV, BBE, CEB, The Message, Young’s).


The King James Version, God’s inspired and authoritative scriptures in English, which may be trusted and argued at the word level, as it was designed and used, has giants in both places.

Transliteration creates new words with no established meaning in the receiving language, and in this case, having little or confused meaning in the originating language. This unnecessary transliteration created the mysterious term Nephilim, encouraging imaginations to run wild about angels having sex with women resulting in a new race. A certain meaning of Nephilim cannot be determined, but since it does not occur in God’s Bible anyway, it is of no consequence to saints.

The wild idea of angels having sexual intercourse with human women to generate science fiction supermen should be ignored, if it were not for some publishing speculations based on this bizarre interpretation. Having turned their ears away from sound doctrine and truth for fables, carnal Christians with itching ears have found teachers that will scratch their lusts with these farfetched tales of a super race (II Tim 4:3-4). Rather than learn Christ, truth, and godliness, they want to be entertained with ridiculous propositions based on even more ridiculous interpretational methods.

The texts above do not say or imply anything about angels, and the rest of scripture is totally silent about such an incredible heaven-earth, interracial sexual event and its result. It is the logical fallacy of begging the question or circular reasoning to assume that angels are intended by a few uses of “sons of God” for angels in Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7. There is no reason to connect these passages beyond the mere sound of their words, which is a presumptive mistake violating even elementary hermeneutics for rightly dividing scripture (Neh 8:8; II Tim 2:15).

Rather than leap into the black abyss of angel-human mongrels running around in dark forests or leading international conspiracies, let sane readers weigh the evidence for a much simpler and Biblical explanation of the text. The scriptures themselves will prove that God in this passage … identified the sin of His adopted children (Seth’s descendants) marrying the reprobate children of the world (Cain’s and others’ descendants), thus bringing the Flood on the whole world, except for the family of Noah, which obtained mercy for his faithful obedience.

1. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels, for God in context and in consequence said He would not always strive with fleshly man (Gen 6:3). The sin was taking daughters for marriage – not a sin of giving daughters in marriage. This must be human males taking human females, for the sin was by fleshly men, not angels, and the sin was taking the wives.

2. The sin was by men of flesh, not by angels, for God’s consequential judgment came on humanity and other breathing creatures in 120 years, when He drowned the human race by Noah’s Flood (Gen 6:3). Nothing happened to any angels 120 years later. Angelic destruction and punishment were thousands of years away, as they confessed to the Lord Christ on earth.

3. The also in verse 6:3 compares two things that are flesh. Since God is not flesh, He is not compared. Since angels are not flesh (and not mentioned here), they are not compared. Are there comparable fleshly things in context? Sons of God and daughters of men! The sons of God, who chose and took wives from the daughters of men, were also flesh. Though named after God religiously, they still had bodies and lusts of flesh like the daughters of men.

4. The Flood was provoked by men of the earth, not by angels, for God saw the wickedness of man and the evil imaginations of his heart (Gen 6:5-7). He did not see the wickedness of angels. If the angels were guilty of corrupting humanity, as would be the case if the wicked sexual perpetrators were angels, they would be mentioned. They are not mentioned. If the angels were guilty of this horrible sexual transgression, why did God punish humanity for it?

5. There is no mention in Genesis 6:1-4 of angels or anywhere else in scripture regarding such an incredible event as angel-human marriages, sexual intercourse, conception, reproduction, mongrel birth, mongrel nursing, etc. The Bible is a closed system of truth, and honest men never argue for an incredible thing like angel-human mongrels when there is not a mote of Biblical evidence for anything even resembling such a wild, Greek mythology fantasy. The burden of proof is upon them, for the doctrine they construct is entirely based on Job alone.

There are about forty more evidences that could be cover.
 
This can go on until the Rapture comes!

And, it will... for those who do not get it.
 
This can go on until the Rapture comes!

And, it will... for those who do not get it.
What rapture? The one scripture speaks of at the Second Coming?
 
Not a chance. :cool:
Try telling where you do stand, then?
Its still a bit vague.

For when you said....

What rapture?

The one scripture speaks of at the Second Coming?

The second coming is when He returns to earth.

In the Rapture?
He is above the earth, and not yet returned to earth.

The Rapture is just before His second coming.

For while the seven years of Tribulation will be raging on earth, his resurrected church, while in heaven,
will be in the state of being prepared by God to return with Him to reign over the new earth.
 
Try telling where you do stand, then?
Its still a bit vague.

For when you said....
Amillennial.
The second coming is when He returns to earth.
Yes.
In the Rapture?
He is above the earth, and not yet returned to earth.
Yes, we will meet the Lord in the air at his Second Coming.
The Rapture is just before His second coming.
Nope.
For while the seven years of Tribulation will be raging on earth, his resurrected church, while in heaven,
will be in the state of being prepared by God to return with Him to reign over the new earth.
That's not scripture.
 
Amillennial.

Yes.

Yes, we will meet the Lord in the air at his Second Coming.

Nope.

That's not scripture.


Fine. OK....
 
I can say the same thing to you as I said to Mt. GLee

The sons of God have several nuances. We know the Job sons of Gods were not born again christians because they didn't witness the earth being made...

Check it out....

4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!

Or who stretched a measuring line across it?

6On what were its foundations set,

or who laid its cornerstone,d

7while the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
You've got the chronology incorrect. Apart from Jesus, all the "sons of God" would be created creatures, NOT creatures present prior to the creating of creation. Read through the Genesis creation account and note when the stars and lights of heaven were made. The first lights were made on the first day, and the stars (literal and figurative) were made on the fourth day, neither of which would have been present when the cornerstones were laid..... especially if the cornerstone is Jesus! 😯 ..................who was with God in the beginning.

Four verses in Job, a book of literature (not literal teaching), do not define the chronology of scripture.

So, what you're telling Mr. Glee and me is incorrect :)., and you need to start over realizing ALL creatures are created and NOT literally present at the time of any part of creation created prior to their being created. If Job's "cornerstone" is a messianic reference (and I am not yet saying it is), then that's also necessarily a soteriological reference as well and all the New Testament uses of "sons of God" apply. Job cannot be used in contradiction with the rest of scripture, and it is the newer revelation that defines the older. No answer to the question asked in this op can exclude the New Testament definitions. Surely you can agree with that.

Genesis 6's sons of God is a reference to OT saints. Nothing more.
 
And I don't. If you have decided to believe it, to shut out all biblical evidence that is given as an alternate view, to not even reason concerning that evidence, then so be it. There is no point in anyone offering it. At some point hopefully you will realize that it is a reliance on human wisdom in this area, and subsequently no doubt in many areas, rather than what we are instructed to do---- all of us. To listen so as to learn, letting the Bible and the indwelling Spirit through His word, be our guide. We are not to shut our ears.
Tell me, why would Genesis 6 even care if Cains descendents married women?
 
You've got the chronology incorrect. Apart from Jesus, all the "sons of God" would be created creatures, NOT creatures present prior to the creating of creation. Read through the Genesis creation account and note when the stars and lights of heaven were made. The first lights were made on the first day, and the stars (literal and figurative) were made on the fourth day, neither of which would have been present when the cornerstones were laid..... especially if the cornerstone is Jesus! 😯 ..................who was with God in the beginning.

Four verses in Job, a book of literature (not literal teaching), do not define the chronology of scripture.

So, what you're telling Mr. Glee and me is incorrect :)., and you need to start over realizing ALL creatures are created and NOT literally present at the time of any part of creation created prior to their being created. If Job's "cornerstone" is a messianic reference (and I am not yet saying it is), then that's also necessarily a soteriological reference as well and all the New Testament uses of "sons of God" apply. Job cannot be used in contradiction with the rest of scripture, and it is the newer revelation that defines the older. No answer to the question asked in this op can exclude the New Testament definitions. Surely you can agree with that.

Genesis 6's sons of God is a reference to OT saints. Nothing more.
Job said the angels watched and sang when the world was created. If you want to argue against that...have at it.
 
Back
Top