Gen 6...who are the sons of God?

[makesends]

Are you saying angels don't have flesh? Angels can eat. But, I would imagine after they got up from Lots table there was a pile of food laying on the floor under where they were sitting.

Ha! Nice mental picture, there!

No, I'm saying they can appear in the flesh, or AS in the flesh or however God gives them temporary or permanent ability. We really know very little about the spirit realm and even less about what God can do. We have our "usual", and so we tend to think the spirit world also has their "usual" which God doesn't mess with very often. But I don't think it works that way there —if they 'take on' flesh for a time, or for a purpose, it doesn't mean that they are flesh beings, complete with genetics.

By the way, I have plenty reason to think it possible that the food they ate immediately 'disappeared' or was undone. My goodness, look at what will happen to our decomposed bodies and even scattered ashes when we are resurrected! Is it any harder or more unusual for God to do the miraculous in the spirit realm? Who knows what happened to the food after they ate it? I find it hard to believe they waited till the digestion was complete before reverting to purely spirit form.

BTW, just so you understand me, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying don't be so sure. Believe what you will, here, but it is not cardinal doctrine.

 

[Biblelesson]

LOL....come on....you're the one who told me angels can't have a reproductive system and the equipment to reproduce with human women. Considering you are unlearned on this subject...why should I follow what you say about it?

Gen 6 tells us that the angels can reproduce with humans and that they did.

Genesis 6 never ever stated that angels can reproduce. If these were angels then why didn’t the Bible just say they were angels? Because these were the men born after Adam who were marrying women born to these men, thus the daughters of men. The earth was being populated with girl babies and boy babies and they grew up and got married. Evil was rampant because of Adam’s fall - remember he sinned - that’s how evil came about in the world.

 

[Arial]

You seemed to have forgotten...the book was quoted by Peter and Jude. Even Jesus referred to the book of Enoch.

Jude quoted the book of Enoch, Peter did not.

This is Jude's quote from the book of Enoch.

"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones. to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This quote is in complete agreement with what the rest of the Bible says about ungodly men. Those hearing Jude's letter would be familiar with it. It is not in any way talking about angels. What is an improper way of handling (dividing as the KJV calls it) the word is to take earlier statements of Jude, or Peter, about Noah and the flood and the reason for the flood that we see in Gen 6, and attach this statement to it as saying angels leaving their station (Jude) means fallen angels copulated with human women and created a giant ungodly race. Or to take the rest of what Enoch writes about angels as gospel truth.

It is not even certain that Enoch the seventh from Adam is the author of the book of Enoch.

What is it that both Peter and Jude are dealing with? False prophets and false teachers that had come into the church who lived a lifestyle of, in particular, sexual abomination, but also greed and personal gain, and teaching the believing community that there was nothing wrong with it, encouraging them to do the same. They were undercutting the entire gospel except for the grace part which they took as antinomianism. Just as in the days of Noah, and again in Sodom and Gomorrah. The angels spoken of in Jude left their God given stations and responsibilities. Some do believe that means they came to earth, but that is not a given. But even if it does, they were bound in chains. Jude 6 "And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement of the great day---"

You have indicated that you recognize that "sons of God" also at times refers to men, and not angels. To then say that because a passage in Job does mean angels, so does Gen 6, is nothing more than picking and choosing to fit a presupposition.

 

[Arial]

LOL....come on....you're the one who told me angels can't have a reproductive system and the equipment to reproduce with human women. Considering you are unlearned on this subject...why should I follow what you say about it?

Gen 6 tells us that the angels can reproduce with humans and that they did.

Unless that isn't what it is saying at all.

 

[CrowCross]

Ha! Nice mental picture, there!

No, I'm saying they can appear in the flesh, or AS in the flesh or however God gives them temporary or permanent ability. We really know very little about the spirit realm and even less about what God can do. We have our "usual", and so we tend to think the spirit world also has their "usual" which God doesn't mess with very often. But I don't think it works that way there —if they 'take on' flesh for a time, or for a purpose, it doesn't mean that they are flesh beings, complete with genetics.

By the way, I have plenty reason to think it possible that the food they ate immediately 'disappeared' or was undone. My goodness, look at what will happen to our decomposed bodies and even scattered ashes when we are resurrected! Is it any harder or more unusual for God to do the miraculous in the spirit realm? Who knows what happened to the food after they ate it? I find it hard to believe they waited till the digestion was complete before reverting to purely spirit form.

BTW, just so you understand me, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying don't be so sure. Believe what you will, here, but it is not cardinal doctrine.

Yes, there is a lot we don't know about the "world". I agree. But the bible "hints" at angels having "material" bodies as well as being spiritual. We are material bodies that also have a spiritual aspect.

The bible presents evidence that angels can produce offspring with humans and did....and perhaps Nephilim are still around today.

 

[CrowCross]

Genesis 6 never ever stated that angels can reproduce. If these were angels then why didn’t the Bible just say they were angels?

It does...Job presents angels as sons of God.

Because these were the men born after Adam who were marrying women born to these men, thus the daughters of men. The earth was being populated with girl babies and boy babies and they grew up and got married. Evil was rampant because of Adam’s fall - remember he sinned - that’s how evil came about in the world.

Evil was present prior to the fall of Adam and Eve....the tempter was evil.

I still need an answer from you...why even mention Gen 6 if it was humans producing other humans? How do humans produce Nephilim? "Giants"? The bible presents numerous examples of "giants".

 

[CrowCross]

Jude quoted the book of Enoch, Peter did not.

This is Jude's quote from the book of Enoch.

"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones. to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This quote is in complete agreement with what the rest of the Bible says about ungodly men. Those hearing Jude's letter would be familiar with it. It is not in any way talking about angels. What is an improper way of handling (dividing as the KJV calls it) the word is to take earlier statements of Jude, or Peter, about Noah and the flood and the reason for the flood that we see in Gen 6, and attach this statement to it as saying angels leaving their station (Jude) means fallen angels copulated with human women and created a giant ungodly race. Or to take the rest of what Enoch writes about angels as gospel truth.

It is not even certain that Enoch the seventh from Adam is the author of the book of Enoch.

What is it that both Peter and Jude are dealing with? False prophets and false teachers that had come into the church who lived a lifestyle of, in particular, sexual abomination, but also greed and personal gain, and teaching the believing community that there was nothing wrong with it, encouraging them to do the same. They were undercutting the entire gospel except for the grace part which they took as antinomianism. Just as in the days of Noah, and again in Sodom and Gomorrah. The angels spoken of in Jude left their God given stations and responsibilities. Some do believe that means they came to earth, but that is not a given. But even if it does, they were bound in chains. Jude 6 "And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement of the great day---"

You have indicated that you recognize that "sons of God" also at times refers to men, and not angels. To then say that because a passage in Job does mean angels, so does Gen 6, is nothing more than picking and choosing to fit a presupposition.

It's a lot more than more than picking and choosing to fit a presupposition. Job calls the sons of God angels. God tells Job they were present when He laid the foundations of the earth. This isn't a presupposition.
Moses in Gen 6 tells of these sons of God had children with the daughters of men. The result was Nephilim "giants". Why would a procreation between humans produce Nephilim? Was Seths descendants messing with human DNA?

 

[CrowCross]

Unless that isn't what it is saying at all.

I have no reason to believe fallen angel watchers didn't.

 

[Biblelesson]

It does...Job presents angels as sons of God.

Evil was present prior to the fall of Adam and Eve....the tempter was evil.

I still need an answer from you...why even mention Gen 6 if it was humans producing other humans? How do humans produce Nephilim? "Giants"? The bible presents numerous examples of "giants".

Evil was not present on earth prior to Adam’s fall. Remember earth was made for man not Satan.

If you will look at Genesis 6:3 KJV, God is about to remove His Spirit from man because of man’s wickedness - man was to be spirit after eating from the tree if life, but because of Adam’s sin, eating from the wrong tree, the tree of life was blocked off and man remained flesh. In Genesis 6, God is showing how the earth is being populated with wickedness and He no longer can remain with man. God removing His Spirit from man basically condemned man because of sin. This is why we needed a redeemer. Without Christ the state of all men was to be burning forever in the lake of fire. Christ saves us from this condemnation by giving us back God’s Spirit.

Genesis 6 is just showing how evil is growing rampant as the world is being populated.

 

[CrowCross]

Evil was not present on earth prior to Adam’s fall. Remember earth was made for man not Satan.

Then why did God say the following to the "serpent" for his deception?

14So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!
On your belly will you go,
and dust you will eat,
all the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed.
He will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.

If the deception wasn't evil...prior to the fall of Adam and Eve....why the curse placed upon the serpent if it wasn't evil?

 

[Arial]

I have no reason to believe fallen angel watchers didn't.

Do you mean these watchers?
Dan 9 4:13-14 "I saw in the visions of my head as I lay in bed, and behold, a watcher, a holy one, came down from heaven. He proclaimed aloud and said thus: 'Chop down the tree and lop off its branches, strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.---'"

Dan 4:23 (Daniel speaking) And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one. coming down from heaven and saying--- 24---this is the interpretation, O King: It is a decree of the Most High which has come up on my lord the king---

Are you bringing the book of Enoch into it again, instead of the clear word of Scripture?

These watchers are holy ones. They are no doubt angels but they are not fallen angels and there is nothing of them copulating with human women in the passage.

 

[Biblelesson]

Then why did God say the following to the "serpent" for his deception?

14So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!
On your belly will you go,
and dust you will eat,
all the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed.
He will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.

If the deception wasn't evil...prior to the fall of Adam and Eve....why the curse placed upon the serpent if it wasn't evil?

Would God have cursed the serpent if Adam had not listened and eaten of the wrong tree? No!

Those curses could only take place once Adam took part in the sin. Why? Because it was Adam who had dominion over the earth, not Satan. Remember, Satan had already been kicked out of heaven. So the serpent’s curse after Adam’s sin now covered the earth and heaven. Now we can see why Genesis 3:15 makes sense!

 

[Arial]

It's a lot more than more than picking and choosing to fit a presupposition. Job calls the sons of God angels. God tells Job they were present when He laid the foundations of the earth. This isn't a presupposition.

That isn't the presupposition. The presuppostion is that sons of God in Gen 6 refers to angels just because it is in Job. It is a presupposition that fits your presupposed interpretation.

Moses in Gen 6 tells of these sons of God had children with the daughters of men. The result was Nephilim "giants". Why would a procreation between humans produce Nephilim? Was Seths descendants messing with human DNA?

Moses doesn't tell us the sons of God were fallen angels who copulated with human women. That is what you say Moses is saying.

Do a research on the word nephilim. Then decide which usage and translation is consistent with clear teaching of the whole of Scripture. I have posted it to you before but alas and alack---who cares, right?

You keep bringing DNA into the mix even though the Bible never discusses DNA and DNA was never an issue of redemption or the sinful condition of mankind. In addition, you have stated yourself that no one knows the actual composition of angels or if they even have DNA, and yet you continue to post as though you do know. The argument is invalid as an argument.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you mean these watchers?
Dan 9 4:13-14 "I saw in the visions of my head as I lay in bed, and behold, a watcher, a holy one, came down from heaven. He proclaimed aloud and said thus: 'Chop down the tree and lop off its branches, strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.---'"

Dan 4:23 (Daniel speaking) And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one. coming down from heaven and saying--- 24---this is the interpretation, O King: It is a decree of the Most High which has come up on my lord the king---

Are you bringing the book of Enoch into it again, instead of the clear word of Scripture?

I'm bringing in Enoch as commentary. the Enoch commentary fills in a lot of blanks.

These watchers are holy ones. They are no doubt angels but they are not fallen angels and there is nothing of them copulating with human women in the passage.

Some of the watchers fell. Not all of them.

 

[CrowCross]

Would God have cursed the serpent if Adam had not listened and eaten of the wrong tree? No!

We don't know. We can only speculate. God may have used him for trying.

Those curses could only take place once Adam took part in the sin. Why? Because it was Adam who had dominion over the earth, not Satan. Remember, Satan had already been kicked out of heaven.

Satan was kicked out of heaven for sinning..being EVIL. If Satan was on the earth in a fallen state prior to A&E sinning...there was evil present on the earth.

So the serpent’s curse after Adam’s sin now covered the earth and heaven. Now we can see why Genesis 3:15 makes sense!

Keep trying. You need to show how Satan wasn't evil during the time he was convincing A&E prior to their fall.

 

[CrowCross]

That isn't the presupposition. The presuppostion is that sons of God in Gen 6 refers to angels just because it is in Job. It is a presupposition that fits your presupposed interpretation.

Moses mentioned the sons of God...Job, the oldest book of the bible tells us the sons of God are angels.

Moses doesn't tell us the sons of God were fallen angels who copulated with human wisdom. That is what you say Moses is saying.

Yes he did. Moses used the words the sons of God. Angels.

Do a research on the word nephilim. Then decide which usage and translation is consistent with clear teaching of the whole of Scripture. I have posted it to you before but alas and alack---who cares, right?

I have there are a few interpretations.

You keep bringing DNA into the mix even though the Bible never discusses DNA and DNA was never an issue of redemption or the sinful condition of mankind. In addition, you have stated yourself that no one knows the actual composition of angels or if they even have DNA, and yet you continue to post as though you do know. The argument is invalid as an argument.

The angels had to have had DNA when they had offspring. How else does it work? If you have a work around for this, let me know.

 

[Arial]

Moses mentioned the sons of God...Job, the oldest book of the bible tells us the sons of God are angels.

Job isn't the only book in the Bible that mentions sons of God.

Gal 4:6; Romans 8:19; believers are sons of God.
Luke 3:38 Adam is the son of God.

An alternate view.
housetohouse.com/sons-god-book-job/

Yes he did. Moses used the words the sons of God. Angels.

In fact the only place the Bible uses sons of God as referring to angels in is Job. And even then it is speculative. All else sons of God are godly men, or humans in general. Why can't you see you are reading into the Bible?

I have there are a few interpretations.

And you picked the one that fit what you already believe even though it is sketchy at best?

The angels had to have had DNA when they had offspring. How else does it work? If you have a work around for this, let me know.

Or else you are wrong and they never had offspring.

 

[GeneZ]

I can’t find anywhere that the devil was an angel who rebelled.

Ezekiel 28:14-15​

​

You were anointed as a guardian cherub,​

for so I ordained you.​

You were on the holy mount of God;​

you walked among the fiery stones.​

You were blameless in your ways​

from the day you were created​

till wickedness was found in you...​

How do you read that to mean?

Maybe, might help reading the verses that follow.


grace and peace ..............

 

[Arial]

I'm bringing in Enoch as commentary. the Enoch commentary fills in a lot of blanks.

If Enoch says those watchers are fallen angels then he is contradicting the Bible. That should be obvious. So why do you believe him more that you believe God on the subject?

Some of the watchers fell. Not all of them.

Do you get that from God's word or from the word of the book of Enoch? I ask because it is not in my Bible. And you directly referred to the book of Dan as your source that the watchers are fallen angels copulating with human women.

 

[GeneZ]

Moses doesn't tell us the sons of God were fallen angels who copulated with human wisdom. That is what you say Moses is saying.

They were not fallen to begin with. Up until Noah's day...
They had been staying with the majority of angels that stayed with the Lord.

They became fallen when they willed to leave their places of authority to 'passionately' take to themselves the women they chose.

Note:
The Hebrew does not say that they "married" the woman.
That wording gets to us courtesy of prudish translators.
The Hebrew means they passionately took these women to themselves.

The following was taken from notes from that was given by a pastor-scholar to his church...

they were very beautiful . . .​

and they took/'seized passionately' to them women ('ishshah)​

{here is a masculine plural suffix signifying 'it happened but was irregular'}​

Marriage would not normally indicate irregular relations.
Details like that are only dug out by those who exegete with integrity (no agenda to push) and with depth.

There is so much more to learn then debating and concentrating on how we entered into salvation.
For that is only the maternity ward for Christians.

God has provided phenomenal teachings for those who hunger ....

God raises up only a few good teachers to be discovered amongst the great number of teachers. (James 3:1)

If not?

Where is God?

..