FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[JIM]

Amen that! The whole notion is repugnant, not only in assuming that the human race has something of itself to be complemented, but, worse, in juxtaposing some virtue endemic to the human race with God's purposes in having created them. This is everything BUT grace.

So you are saying that God's supreme physical creation, mankind, is repugnant. Interesting.

 

[makesends]

So you are saying that God's supreme physical creation, mankind, is repugnant. Interesting.

Wow. Hard to believe you actually misunderstood me that badly! Explain how you took the grammar of my statement to that strange conclusion, that I was saying what you claim there.

No, I said that the notion of God complementing mankind is repugnant, in the way you claim he was doing, as though mankind has anything endemic of itself to offer, to add virtue to God's own virtue, or to elicit admiration or respect from God, quite apart from God's work.

Does mankind operate in God's realm?

 

[Mr GLee]

Great observation. Make it apply to the claim any competent person can seek God.

Not possible. Saving faith is a gift .

 

[Mr GLee]

Bottom line it for me. How does that relate to the fate of the unreached? As far as I can see, everyone referenced in that post would be a reached person, not an unreached person.

The written law sola scriptura, the sword of the spirit it as it ia written defends us we miraculously can defend it . Those who do not have the Bible . . . no defense

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (Bible) shall also perish without lawBible) and as many as have sinned in the law( Bible)shall be judged by the law;( Bible)

The law the power of life and death.

 

[Josheb]

The written law sola scriptura, the sword of the spirit it as it ia written defends us we miraculously can defend it . Those who do not have the Bible . . . no defense

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (Bible) shall also perish without lawBible) and as many as have sinned in the law( Bible)shall be judged by the law;( Bible)

The law the power of life and death.

So..... people who don't have Bibles can't/won't get saved and they have no defense for that? They'll have no defense against perishing apart from the law (the Bible)?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right. What has that post to do with the OP? What is the point you are trying to make, as relates to the OP?

Makesends, my original thread addressed "The Fate Of The Unreached." It soon evolved into Calvinist doctrine, but not initiated by me. I simply "followed suit."​

 

[makesends]

Makesends, my original thread addressed "The Fate Of The Unreached." It soon evolved into Calvinist doctrine, but not initiated by me. I simply "followed suit."​

ok. I'll leave it alone.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

More on Romans, Chapter 1, Relative to
"The Fate Of The Unreached"
​

To extricate the idea that man is incapable of choosing God, Romans, chapter 1, needs to be revisited and appraised. We dialogued these passages of scripture earlier, but let's do a little more clarifying.

Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says, “What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.” He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (Rom. 1:18-32). Paul continues by saying that “they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” (v. 28). Here is what we have:

1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

This class of people in Paul's lecture could very possibly have included Sodom and Gomorrah, for in verses 26 & 27 he describes some of their evil fleshly practices.

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those contrary to nature [lesbianism], and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another [homosexuality], men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Verse 32 is interesting. "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

The core message seems to be that regardless of when and where man is located, if he is not, nor can be, exposed to either audible or written revelations from Heaven, God and divine nature reveal themselves to them through the revelation of creation. God can be acknowledged via nature, for he can be "clearly perceived...through what has been made." And if acknowledged by a sincere heart, God's grace will rescue him eternally.

[Perhaps more on this later.]​

 

[makesends]

Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says, “What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.” He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (Rom. 1:18-32). Paul continues by saying that “they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” (v. 28). Here is what we have:

1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

How did you get all that from those verses? It doesn't say they were free at all. Nor does it say that they were able to choose well, but only (implied) that they chose wrong.

But, you were right about (1) and partly right about (4), though it doesn't say they retained the knowledge of God, but that they did not think it worthwhile to retain it.

You are wrong about 5, in that they did not and would not and could not, having Romans 8's mind of flesh. It is bogus speculation.

The core message seems to be that regardless of when and where man is located, if he is not, nor can be, exposed to either audible or written revelations from Heaven, God and divine nature reveal themselves to them through the revelation of creation. God can be acknowledged via nature, for he can be "clearly perceived...through what has been made." And if acknowledged by a sincere heart, God's grace will rescue him eternally.

It only concludes that they are without excuse. It does not say that they could have done what is right.

Also, the unqualified statement that "if acknowledged by a sincere heart, God's grace will rescue him eternally.", is mistaken. Once again you drag the engine behind the car. There is only grand emotion, and supposed sincerity, concerning spiritual things in the lost. The only way spiritual things are valid is when God does it in them.

Next, if, for the sake of argument, we grant the [supposed] validity of their sincerity, "God's grace will rescue him eternally" by the gospel—not by stepping in and making an exception in this extreme case.

I reference a sci-fi book of years past —I wish I could remember the name and author— in which the protagonist has managed to transcend physicality and time (and location) and [supposedly] recognizes God. In this situation, the protagonist gives this 'God' glory and 'praise' and 'honor' because of his power and purity of being. This is the kind of "knowing God" available to the lost, upon revelation by nature and fact, were they to not reject it, but they will reject it, and pursue no further. The devil has gone this far. They have no sincere heart.

 

[Josheb]

Makesends, my original thread addressed "The Fate Of The Unreached." It soon evolved into Calvinist doctrine, but not initiated by me. I simply "followed suit."​

It was well within your ability to ignore those who took the thread off topic and stick to proving the op and its claims about the unreached. Blaming others for that lack is bad form.

Just saying

 

[JIM]

Wow. Hard to believe you actually misunderstood me that badly! Explain how you took the grammar of my statement to that strange conclusion, that I was saying what you claim there.

No, I said that the notion of God complementing mankind is repugnant, in the way you claim he was doing, as though mankind has anything endemic of itself to offer, to add virtue to God's own virtue, or to elicit admiration or respect from God, quite apart from God's work.

Does mankind operate in God's realm?

Sorry, I read "nation" not "notion".

 

[Mr GLee]

So..... people who don't have Bibles can't/won't get saved and they have no defense for that? They'll have no defense against perishing apart from the law (the Bible)?

That is what Roman 2:12 is saying . Sounds harsh but rings true

His living word is the only means of salvation. And he is not brining new revelations

In that way we go out into the world as missionaries with the book of law

 

[JIM]

Even if a person were to be saved by law keeping, it would be grace.

If a person were to be "saved by law keeping", that would mean he kept the law perfectly. In that case he wouldn't need to be saved.

I don't know where you get the idea that God ever owes us anything or for any reason.

God does owe us what He has promised.

The contrast is not between grace and works. It is between works and faith.

No, the contrast is always between grace and law.

You have actually annulled all grace and replaced it with salvation by works when you say the faith necessary for salvation is not a gift from God, but something we produce and God then rewards.

You are refusing to allow God to place conditions upon His saving grace. Believing in God is a condition for being saved. There are many passages that attest to that, Mark 16:16 being an example given by Jesus, himself.

And grace is not an attribute of God as you say. It is something he freely chooses to extend towards the undeserving. All I can say is, that was quite a dance you performed and it appears fully ad lib for the moment.

The basic word is the noun charis, most often translated “grace.” Its general meaning is “a gift that brings joy,” and it is used for many kinds of gifts, even divine gifts, that have nothing to do with salvation as such. It may refer to material blessings (2 Cor 8:19; 9:8), spiritual strength or divine aid in general (2 Cor 12:9; Heb 4:10), and equipping gifts of the spirit (e.g., 1 Pet 4:10; Rom 15:15). The point is that we must be aware of other meanings of the term and must guard against interpreting every occurrence of the word charis, as well as the English translation “grace,” as a reference to saving grace.

God is gracious. That means that grace, being gracious, is an attribute of God. In the OT the terms are all taken from the same root or stem. They are chen, a noun often translated “grace”; chanan, the verb “to be gracious”; and channun, the adjective “gracious” These words are only mildly helpful in understanding God’s saving grace, because most of the time they do not refer to salvation, even when used of God. Most often the noun means “favor,” as in “do me a favor” or “finding favor” in someone’s eyes (e.g., Gen 6:8; Exod 33:13,17; 1 Sam 16:22; Esth 2:15). The verb usually means “to act favorably toward someone, to bless, to come to someone’s aid.” Even when translated “be gracious,” this is usually what is meant (e.g., Gen 43:29; 2 Sam 12:22; 2 Kgs 13:23; Ps 4:1; Isa 33:2). When we read such language from the perspective of the NT, we are tempted to think that “be gracious unto me” means “forgive my sins and save me for eternity,” when it will most often mean something like “do me this favor” or “please answer my prayer.” To say that God is “gracious” means that he is kind and loving, and willing to aid us and answer our prayers.

 

[JIM]

All I can say is, that was quite a dance you performed and it appears fully ad lib for the moment.

There are few here who dance quite as well as you.

 

[Mr GLee]

More on Romans, Chapter 1, Relative to
"The Fate Of The Unreached"
​

To extricate the idea that man is incapable of choosing God, Romans, chapter 1, needs to be revisited and appraised. We dialogued these passages of scripture earlier, but let's do a little more clarifying.

Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says, “What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.” He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (Rom. 1:18-32). Paul continues by saying that “they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” (v. 28). Here is what we have:

1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

This class of people in Paul's lecture could very possibly have included Sodom and Gomorrah, for in verses 26 & 27 he describes some of their evil fleshly practices.

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those contrary to nature [lesbianism], and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another [homosexuality], men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Verse 32 is interesting. "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

The core message seems to be that regardless of when and where man is located, if he is not, nor can be, exposed to either audible or written revelations from Heaven, God and divine nature reveal themselves to them through the revelation of creation. God can be acknowledged via nature, for he can be "clearly perceived...through what has been made." And if acknowledged by a sincere heart, God's grace will rescue him eternally.

[Perhaps more on this later.]​

We are not saved by the knowledge of God .Knowledge puffs up.

Salvation, God loving applying his labor of love or called a work of his faith (belief) builds up.

Knowledge can become a idol .

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

In that way both . Knowledge reveals . . love empowers . To will and to do

The heaven and earth declare his glory but says nothing of the salvation plan.

Love found a way .

 

[Mr GLee]

If a person were to be "saved by law keeping", that would mean he kept the law perfectly. In that case he wouldn't need to be saved.

Yoked with Christ we can keep it perfectly.

He promises us as the better thing that acompanies salvation he will not forget our labor of love as a work of his faithfulness according to the power of his name .(eternal God)

Hebrew 6: 9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Making a list checking it twice. . . . he alone can make dying mankind naughty or nice .. He has come to town . He knows when men are sleeping and when awake .We can be good for his goodness sake .

 

[JIM]

Yoked with Christ we can keep it perfectly.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Josheb]

That is what Roman 2:12 is saying . Sounds harsh but rings true

His living word is the only means of salvation. And he is not brining new revelations

In that way we go out into the world as missionaries with the book of law

Am I correct in understanding you think the word "law" in the verse is all of God's laws as a whole and is not a reference specifically to the Law of Moses, and then, by extension, Paul is alluding to all of God's words, His entire revelation to humanity as recorded in what we now call the Bible?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

How did you get all that from those verses? It doesn't say they were free at all. Nor does it say that they were able to choose well, but only (implied) that they chose wrong.

But, you were right about (1) and partly right about (4), though it doesn't say they retained the knowledge of God, but that they did not think it worthwhile to retain it.

You are wrong about 5, in that they did not and would not and could not, having Romans 8's mind of flesh. It is bogus speculation.

It only concludes that they are without excuse. It does not say that they could have done what is right.

Also, the unqualified statement that "if acknowledged by a sincere heart, God's grace will rescue him eternally.", is mistaken. Once again you drag the engine behind the car. There is only grand emotion, and supposed sincerity, concerning spiritual things in the lost. The only way spiritual things are valid is when God does it in them.

Next, if, for the sake of argument, we grant the [supposed] validity of their sincerity, "God's grace will rescue him eternally" by the gospel—not by stepping in and making an exception in this extreme case.

I reference a sci-fi book of years past —I wish I could remember the name and author— in which the protagonist has managed to transcend physicality and time (and location) and [supposedly] recognizes God. In this situation, the protagonist gives this 'God' glory and 'praise' and 'honor' because of his power and purity of being. This is the kind of "knowing God" available to the lost, upon revelation by nature and fact, were they to not reject it, but they will reject it, and pursue no further. The devil has gone this far. They have no sincere heart.

Makesends, if you will only reexamine Romans 1 slowly and more carefully, you will see that my remarks coincide exactly with what Paul wrote. No offence, but your twisting, turning, and distorting are not conducive to what Paul wrote--or my explanations of what he said.​

​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Makesends, here's a little more for you to consider. It can be said that those who deliberately sinned and disobeyed God and who lived lives of evil without the Law of Moses, will perish without the Law of Moses. They will perish without the Covenant of Jesus as well—not because they were unexposed to either Covenant, but because they deliberately and knowingly lived lives of evil, thus violating the “divine nature” God had revealed to them through creation.

It is a sobering and disturbing truth that too many of us are prone to take the position that ignorance condemns. Not necessarily, for if ignorance condemns none of us will be saved. All of us are ignorant of some truth. If God condemns eternally the honest unexposed because of ignorance, thus requiring the impossible, how could He be a merciful God? God cares. He understands. He is aware of our plight. His mercy is beyond human comprehension!​