False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Hobie]

Many Churches have picked up the false Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture", and give the people the idea that if you are a real Christian you will be caught up in the secret rapture to be with Christ. To arrive at this the Scripture has to be twisted and taken out of context.
Here are some of the texts that have been quoted as referring to the rapture:-

1. The Church will meet Christ in the air - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
2. The Church will be taken to heaven - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:3
3. Christ will come for His saints - 2 Thessalonians 2:1
4. The rapture is a mystery - 1 Corinthians 15:51
5. The righteous will be removed - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used in 1, 2, and 5 has been twisted to make it seem to say the things they claim. Let us look at this verse in context with the verses around it.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
Verse 14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
Verse 15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
Verse 16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Verse 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Verse 18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
Verses 13 - 15 says sorrow not for those that are asleep or dead, Jesus died and rose again and so conquered death. When He comes again these people He will raise from the grave as verse 16 explains and then in verse 17 we which are alive and remain will be caught up with those that have been raised from the grave to be ever with the Lord Jesus Christ. This quote can fit nowhere else but the second coming of Jesus - verse 15.

John 14:3 used in this, tells us that after Jesus arose, He told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, referring also to all the righteous, and that he was coming again to receive all the righteous unto Himself. It is refering to the time when Christ comes at His 2nd coming.
John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."
Verse 2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Verse 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

2 Thessalonians 2:1 used in number 3 is correct but let us put the correct interpretation to it. Read verses 1, 2, and 3 and the reader will see that verse 1 tells us that Christ is coming again to gather His people to Himself; verse 2 tells us not to be troubled but hold firm; verse 3 tells us not to be deceived for that day shall not come until the man of sin -"The Pope" - is revealed; and verse 4 gives us a description of what the man of sin is like.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
Verse 2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
Verse 3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Verse 4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

1 Corinthians 15:51 used in number 4 is taken completely out of context. By reading verse 52 also we find that we shall not all sleep, but those that are alive when Christ comes the second time at the end of the seven last plagues, shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. This is the very same meaning as in 1 Thessalonians 13:18 which is talking about the second coming.
1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
Verse 51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
Verse 52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Verse 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Its clear what is being said, but evil likes to bring confusion and twist the truth.

 

[Hobie]

So don't be deceived by the false doctrine of the Secret Rapture.The Second Coming will be seen by everyone so its kind of hard to have a "Secret Rapture" with everyone watching. So how will Christ return and how will the Second Coming unfold, well lets start at how he ascended:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'. Acts 1:9-11

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him. Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. Matthew 25:31

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

Jesus return in the clouds will be visible to everyone on earth and will be any kind of secret, or only seen or experience by a select few. Christ also warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Jesus return in the clouds will great a audible sound so that everyone on earth know of his coming, not just a select few.

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

Jesus will return in the clouds while everyone sees and hears his Second Coming and the faithful, those that had died and those alive will be picked up and meet him in mid-air in the cloud of his angels. The redeemed (elect) will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky, the verses make clear it is not a secret rapture.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31 NIV

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalm 50:5

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. We cannot go to heaven with pain, sickness, disease, we will be transformed in a instance, all these things will be taken away. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His, incorruptible, and changed to immortal.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

 

[Hodgie]

A big question should be, who are the dead in Christ? I believe it is the martyrs as meantioned in Rev 20:4-5. It tells you who the dead in Christ are and it even says that they are the only people who are raised.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-5
Notice how it says that the rest of us are not raised up? So, we believers will not precede those that have fallen asleep. That is the martyrs. The martyrs will be raised first and reign for 1000 years. Then those that are left alive will be caught up into the air to meet with Christ. This is everybody will meet with Christ. Believer and non-believer, great and small dead and alive and we will all go to the Great White Throne to give an account of our lives.

 

[EarlyActs]

So don't be deceived by the false doctrine of the Secret Rapture.The Second Coming will be seen by everyone so its kind of hard to have a "Secret Rapture" with everyone watching. So how will Christ return and how will the Second Coming unfold, well lets start at how he ascended:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'. Acts 1:9-11

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him. Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. Matthew 25:31

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

Jesus return in the clouds will be visible to everyone on earth and will be any kind of secret, or only seen or experience by a select few. Christ also warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Jesus return in the clouds will great a audible sound so that everyone on earth know of his coming, not just a select few.

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

Jesus will return in the clouds while everyone sees and hears his Second Coming and the faithful, those that had died and those alive will be picked up and meet him in mid-air in the cloud of his angels. The redeemed (elect) will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky, the verses make clear it is not a secret rapture.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31 NIV

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalm 50:5

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. We cannot go to heaven with pain, sickness, disease, we will be transformed in a instance, all these things will be taken away. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His, incorruptible, and changed to immortal.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

The end of time is a matter of Christ collecting us for the NHNE. This is why 2 P 3 does not mention the events in Judea of 21 judgements etc. They were in the 1st cent. I don't know a NT passage that has any Judaic detail when the final day arrives, judgement is executed, and we are with him in the NHNE.

 

[Josheb]

Many Churches have picked up the false Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture", and give the people the idea that if you are a real Christian you will be caught up in the secret rapture to be with Christ. To arrive at this the Scripture has to be twisted and taken out of context.
Here are some of the texts that have been quoted as referring to the rapture:-

1. The Church will meet Christ in the air - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
2. The Church will be taken to heaven - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:3
3. Christ will come for His saints - 2 Thessalonians 2:1
4. The rapture is a mystery - 1 Corinthians 15:51
5. The righteous will be removed - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used in 1, 2, and 5 has been twisted to make it seem to say the things they claim. Let us look at this verse in context with the verses around it.....................

Its clear what is being said, but evil likes to bring confusion and twist the truth.

While I agree with the conclusion, I differ with the method by which that conclusion was reached. I also read the op to say verse X, Y, or Z has been misread but I do not read anything explaining how the verse should be read.

For example, the 1 Thessalonians passage is written to calm the concerns the Thessalonians had about those who had died not going with Jesus when he returns. They, apparently, thought their deceased siblings had missed out. Paul assures them the dead will rise but he also adds something particularly curious: the ones who were living, the alive Christians would not be going first. The dead go first! You guys reading my letter will have to wait until those who have died and are now lying in the grave are raised first. This necessarily precludes any view of the rapture that says only living Christians get raptured away and then much later in time there is a resurrection where everyone, living and dead gets raised to face God and be judged.

Now we know from the second letter Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that the Thessalonians had trouble with this being raised from the dead teaching. In his second letter Paul has to address the misguided belief they'd missed the resurrection. This is altogether a different problem than the one wherein those Christians were believing their dead loved ones had missed the boat, but it shows there is some pervasive confusion about the resurrection in that church.

If we look to other scriptures to inform the Thessalonian texts we might start with any number of texts, but I'm inclined to start with the "harvest" texts, such as that found in Matthew 13.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Logically, if all the Christians are gone from the earth beforehand there won't be any wheat to be harvested at Jesus' second coming. They've all be raptured away. The dissent arguing new Christians are converted during the millennium conflict with the fact the wheat and wheat were "sown" first and the wheat and tares get reaped at the same time.

There are a number of passages that speak of only the Christians being gathered but not all of them speak of being raised or resurrected, and while there may be mention of Christians that does not preclude the weeds. Matthew 24, for example states,

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and the moon will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Space does not provide for a proper exegetical rendering of this text, but Jesus goes on to explain how it was "in the days of Noah" where some were taken away and some remained. Rapturists mistakenly read this to refer to the rapture but in the days of Noah it was those taken away by the flood that were destroyed and it was the ones who remained behind that went on to live in a covenant relationship with God. Jesus states this explicitly.

Matthew 24:37-41
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Luke 17:26-27
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

The ones taken away by the flood were destroyed. So we see a double twisting of these passages: first the texts are made out to be an occasion when the saved are saved and, second, the texts are made out to be a separate rapture, one where the rapture is separate from the resurrection and one in which the wheat are raised separately from the weeds.


For 2,000 years Christianity has not separated the rapture apart from the resurrection. That separation was made popular in the mid-1800s. I know you all get tired of me saying this, but as long as modern futurists are preaching their end-times views I am going to dissent. If they can make EVERYTHING about the end times, then I can speak to all their end times views with scripture and the history of that doctrine. Dispensational Premillennialism does not share common views with Historical Premillennialism. The Historicists had to start calling themselves Historicists because Dispensationalists act like their views have always been around. Historicists, Amils, Premils, Postmils, and Idealists ALL share the same common view about the rapture and the resurrection: the scriptures speak of them as one event, and that event occurs at the end.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

And when the reaping occurs the wheat will be separated from the weeds and the weeds destroyed, not before then. This is just one example of how the "rapture theory" can and should be addressed but there are many passages that speak in the same way to the same end to prove a separate "secret rapture" a gross misinterpretation of scripture that was invented long, long, long after more orthodox Christian eschatologies were established.

 

[Mr GLee]

While I agree with the conclusion, I differ with the method by which that conclusion was reached. I also read the op to say verse X, Y, or Z has been misread but I do not read anything explaining how the verse should be read.

For example, the 1 Thessalonians passage is written to calm the concerns the Thessalonians had about those who had died not going with Jesus when he returns. They, apparently, thought their deceased siblings had missed out. Paul assures them the dead will rise but he also adds something particularly curious: the ones who were living, the alive Christians would not be going first. The dead go first! You guys reading my letter will have to wait until those who have died and are now lying in the grave are raised first. This necessarily precludes any view of the rapture that says only living Christians get raptured away and then much later in time there is a resurrection where everyone, living and dead gets raised to face God and be judged.

I would agree. What method of interpretation? There are many different private intertations avialble available . .

Revelation the last chapter in the book of prophecy uses the metaphors used in parables from the beginning ,Bruise heel, crush head serpent *The gospel hid in that parable.

It would seem to be the most confusing chapter in the book of prophecy. . . because of it (.hidden manna) signified understanding

The "last day" one of the most controversial private interpretations or personal commentaries

I would think by looking to the introduction of Revelation which gives us the kind of understanding by which the book is writen after . Not only did he send it as prophecy with the apostle John but also signified it using the temporal things seen to give us the gospel understanding hiding it from those who literalize the parables called hidden manna in Chapter 2:17 .I think of it as our daily bread desiring to know the will of the Holy Father.Not visible to dying mankind .

The Amil (no literal thousand) It works the best for myself. Nothing disappears until the last day under the Sun It will end with the fiery judgment up in smoke the first with water representing the born again. . gospel

Revelation 1King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Thousand years a unknown . no need to know with those who walk by the faith of Christ that works in us with us . Yoked with him our daily sufferings can be lighter with a future hope beyond the grave a living hope not dead powerless .

No signs (day or literal number of people were given to wonder after.

 

[Josheb]

I would agree. What method of interpretation? There are many different private intertations avialble available . .

No there are not.

That is a common claim but it is not true. Most people mean there are different hermeneutical models and that is true, but hermeneutics and exegesis are different categories, and it is always a mistake to conflate the two. The fact is, the truth is, the basic rules of exegesis do NOT vary from theological orientation to theological orientation. For example, one of the universally accepted rules for reading and understandinig scripture is to read the text exactly as written with the words understood in the normal definitions in ordinary usage unless the surrounding text provides reason to do otherwise.

I have done that repeatedly in many threads.

Most here have not.

The fact that nowhere in the entire book of Revelation is Jesus ever explicitly reported to physically be on earth until chapter 21 proves it. ALL the dissenters have ignored the first rule of exegesis. Historicists, Amils, Postmils, Idealists, Dispensatinalists, Covenantalists, etc., etc., etc., everyone is supposed to use these same rules and you and I can Google "principles of biblical exegesis" and peruse 50 different websites from a variety of theological perspectives and they will all teach the same basics.

The problem arises over how well those rules are applied, not their absence.

Revelation the last chapter in the book of prophecy uses the metaphors used in parables from the beginning ,Bruise heel, crush head serpent *The gospel hid in that parable.

It would seem to be the most confusing chapter in the book of prophecy. . . because of it (.hidden manna) signified understanding

The "last day" one of the most controversial private interpretations or personal commentaries

I would think by looking to the introduction of Revelation which gives us the kind of understanding by which the book is writen after . Not only did he send it as prophecy with the apostle John but also signified it using the temporal things seen to give us the gospel understanding hiding it from those who literalize the parables called hidden manna in Chapter 2:17 .I think of it as our daily bread desiring to know the will of the Holy Father.Not visible to dying mankind .

The Amil (no literal thousand) It works the best for myself. Nothing disappears until the last day under the Sun It will end with the fiery judgment up in smoke the first with water representing the born again. . gospel

Revelation 1King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Thousand years a unknown . no need to know with those who walk by the faith of Christ that works in us with us . Yoked with him our daily sufferings can be lighter with a future hope beyond the grave a living hope not dead powerless .

No signs (day or literal number of people were given to wonder after.

What's the subject of this op?

 

[Mr GLee]

Most here have not.

The fact that nowhere in the entire book of Revelation is Jesus ever explicitly reported to physically be on earth until chapter 21 proves it. ALL the dissenters have ignored the first rule of exegesis. Historicists, Amils, Postmils, Idealists, Dispensatinalists, Covenantalists, etc., etc., etc., everyone is supposed to use these same rules and you and I can Google "principles of biblical exegesis" and peruse 50 different websites from a variety of theological perspectives and they will all teach the same basics.

The problem arises over how well those rules are applied, not their absence.

Not all do practice Amil. No litteral thousand to whatsoever is in view. Time, money, people, mountains, cattle, sheep. Hundreds of examples in the old it does not become literal in the last chapter revelation using the the sigfied understanding of parables . Again they teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God Hid from those who litral the signified understanding it remained a hard lesson for the apostles , yoked with Christ made the lesson lighter

Thousand as if a year a unknow revealed in parables

a fe wexamples thousands in mutiples ten hundred, thousand ten thousand a million thousand) a unknown

Genesis 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Thousands equaling . . unto all that are with thee an ith all others a unknown

Genesis 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed (Christ ) possess the gate of those which hate them.

The bride of Christ the mother of us all in the born agin spiritual family .

Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

God forbids lieraly numbering the troops He desire they trust his un seen presence working in mankind

Exodus 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

All the people that fear God. fifty in multitudes redemption Five virgins etc

Genesis 5:30And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and fiveyears, and begat sons and daughters:

Rounded off as a metaphor to indicate redemption

Genesis 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth

Psalm 50:10F or every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Every, all the beasts on all the hills

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle
A another unknown hid in a parable much cattle.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
5 redemption the gospel

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents

Aso with Elijah the first two time (.666) they were recognized as false apostles The father sent own fire to judge the 50 the last 50 to represnt the redeemed as true apostles sent by the Father

2 kings 1 :9-15 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down. And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.2 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
( no redemption) And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight. Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight. And the angel of the Lord said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.

 

[Josheb]

Not all do practice Amil. No litteral thousand to whatsoever is in view. Time, money, people, mountains, cattle, sheep. Hundreds of examples in the old it does not become literal in the last chapter revelation using the the sigfied understanding of parables . Again they teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God Hid from those who litral the signified understanding it remained a hard lesson for the apostles , yoked with Christ made the lesson lighter

Thousand as if a year a unknow revealed in parables

a fe wexamples thousands in mutiples ten hundred, thousand ten thousand a million thousand) a unknown

Genesis 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Thousands equaling . . unto all that are with thee an ith all others a unknown

Genesis 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed (Christ ) possess the gate of those which hate them.

The bride of Christ the mother of us all in the born agin spiritual family .

Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

God forbids lieraly numbering the troops He desire they trust his un seen presence working in mankind

Exodus 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

All the people that fear God. fifty in multitudes redemption Five virgins etc

Genesis 5:30And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and fiveyears, and begat sons and daughters:

Rounded off as a metaphor to indicate redemption

Genesis 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth

Psalm 50:10F or every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Every, all the beasts on all the hills

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle
A another unknown hid in a parable much cattle.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
5 redemption the gospel

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents

Aso with Elijah the first two time (.666) they were recognized as false apostles The father sent own fire to judge the 50 the last 50 to represnt the redeemed as true apostles sent by the Father

2 kings 1 :9-15 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down. And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.2 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
( no redemption) And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight. Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight. And the angel of the Lord said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.

What is the subject of this op?

 

[Josheb]

Not all do practice Amil.

I know. Never said all do practice Amillennialism. The fact is only the Dispensational Premillennialists separate the rapture from the return of Christ. Historical Premils, Amils, Postmils, and Idealists all view the mentions of the rapture as synonymous with Christ's return. Both Historicists and Dispensationalists read the "one thousand years" literally. Everyone else reads it figuratively. Even though the Historicists and the Dispensationalists read the 1000 years literally the former complete disagree with the latter regarding the rapture. The Dispensationalist views is unique and exclusive, and utter outlier in comparison to what all of Christendom believes and has believed for two millennia.

No litteral thousand to whatsoever is in view.

Premils disagree.

Thousand as if a year a unknow revealed in parables

What does that have to do with the false doctrine of the secret rapture?

 

[EarlyActs]

So don't be deceived by the false doctrine of the Secret Rapture.The Second Coming will be seen by everyone so its kind of hard to have a "Secret Rapture" with everyone watching. So how will Christ return and how will the Second Coming unfold, well lets start at how he ascended:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'. Acts 1:9-11

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him. Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. Matthew 25:31

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

Jesus return in the clouds will be visible to everyone on earth and will be any kind of secret, or only seen or experience by a select few. Christ also warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Jesus return in the clouds will great a audible sound so that everyone on earth know of his coming, not just a select few.

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

Jesus will return in the clouds while everyone sees and hears his Second Coming and the faithful, those that had died and those alive will be picked up and meet him in mid-air in the cloud of his angels. The redeemed (elect) will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky, the verses make clear it is not a secret rapture.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31 NIV

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalm 50:5

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. We cannot go to heaven with pain, sickness, disease, we will be transformed in a instance, all these things will be taken away. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His, incorruptible, and changed to immortal.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

Hi, it's really tricky to have a meaningful exchange about such huge posts.
Q1: what if the cloud at Acts 1 was the mass of angels mentioned by Mt 25? When receiving Stephen, heaven was opened for people to see that He stood up. I'm sure there were numerous angels around.
Q2: this is incoherent; please rewrite:

Jesus return in the clouds will be visible to everyone on earth and will be any kind of secret, or only seen or experience by a select few. Christ also warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Q3: related to Q2: is the warning about false comings(?) actually about false messiahs? Did you think their coming would not be universally visible? Is that the warning line about 'parateresis'--signs/indicators in Lk 17:20 ?

 

[Mr GLee]

No there are not.

That is a common claim but it is not true. Most people mean there are different hermeneutical models and that is true, but hermeneutics and exegesis are different categories, and it is always a mistake to conflate the two. The fact is, the truth is, the basic rules of exegesis do NOT vary from theological orientation to theological orientation. For example, one of the universally accepted rules for reading and understandinig scripture is to read the text exactly as written with the words understood in the normal definitions in ordinary usage unless the surrounding text provides reason to do otherwise.

I have done that repeatedly in many threads.

Most here have not.

The fact that nowhere in the entire book of Revelation is Jesus ever explicitly reported to physically be on earth until chapter 21 proves it. ALL the dissenters have ignored the first rule of exegesis. Historicists, Amils, Postmils, Idealists, Dispensatinalists, Covenantalists, etc., etc., etc., everyone is supposed to use these same rules and you and I can Google "principles of biblical exegesis" and peruse 50 different websites from a variety of theological perspectives and they will all teach the same basics.

The problem arises over how well those rules are applied, not their absence.

What's the subject of this op?

Thanks I guess I do not believe in a secret rapture as some sort of return of Christ or the church . Christ is here now reigning in mankind. He will leave like a thief in the night. Perhaps that's the secret?.

 

[Josheb]

Thanks I guess I do not believe in a secret rapture as some sort of return of Christ or the church .

What do you think is the "rapture"?

Christ is here now reigning in mankind.

Yep. I completely agree if you mean he is here in his body, the Church, and here in the working of his Spirit. Physically, He ascended (Jn. 3:13; Acts 1:9; Eph. 4:0) where he is seated on his Father's throne (Rev. 3:21) at his Father's right hand, where he will remain until his Father defeats all his enemies.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

The Lord stays seated until the LORD makes a footstool of the Lord's enemies.

He will leave like a thief in the night. Perhaps that's the secret?.

You might want to re-read that passage because it states he comes like a thief in the night, not leaves like one.

Matthew 24:32-44
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

Comes, not leaves.

Notice the idiom, or adage "thief in the night" is used completely differently in these to passages. Jesus is not a thief. In Matthew 24 he does not say he will come. Jesus is talking about the tribulation. The tribulation will come like a thief in the night. Jesus did not know exactly when, but he knew it would come in this generation, the generation of his disciples to whom he was speaking that evening on the Mount of Olives. Note also that the disciples did not ask Jesus when he was coming. They asked what would be the sign of his coming. When Jesus speaks of two people working and one being taken away he is not speaking about a "rapture" in which a Christian is taken away to live with Jesus in the sky or in heaven. Jesus explicitly couches this taking away in the flood. In the days of Noah it was the one who remained behind that continued to live in a covenant relationship with God. The ones taken away were destroyed!

Matthew 24:38-39
"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Luke 17:26-27
"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."

The flood came and took them all away. The ones taken away were the ones taken away by the flood and the flood destroyed them. They were NOT saved from the tribulation. They were destroyed by it. In the days of Noah it was Noah and the seven remaining others who went on to live in a covenant relationship with God.

Genesis 9:8-10
Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, "Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.

And in the New Testament we are told this episode was a foreshadowing of something much more spiritual in nature.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The thief is not Jesus. The "thief" is the tribulation, or the day of the Lord, and it comes, not leaves. When it came/comes a lot were/will be destroyed but both soteriologically and eschatologically speaking it is the ones that remain that get to live in a covenant relationship with their Creator.


Dispensationalists (and other modern futurists) screw this up immensely.

 

[Mr GLee]

What do you think is the "rapture"?

I think it is the opening up of the east gate the heavenly gate or gate of mercy, the salvation gate. The entrance into the beautiful city of prepared for his bride the church the salvation gate which was opened when Jesus said "it is finished".

All of the old testament shadows in ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the finished work of Christ, sufferings beforehand became substance at the cross (1 Peter 1:9-11) we can look back to the glorious demonstration as shadows , they looked ahead by the same Spirit of faith Christ that mightily works in us
1 Peter 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory (the opening of the gate to the beautiful city)

Today because the work is finished to be absence from these bodies of death is to have entered our eternal abode called a mansion. We look back to the opening of the salvation gate they looked ahead by the same Holy Spirit of faith

Then first century reformation had come ,Destroying the kingdoms as governments of dying mankind men The Pagan foundation .. Kings in Israel,the abomination of desolation.

All of the old testament born again saints entered the city of "many mansions. Mansion meaning eternal abode as that which Christ prepared from the foundation of the world for his bride the church .

The Son of man Jesus, dying mankind did not rise up physically and enter heaven anymore than Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, The spiritual understanding must be compared to the spiritual un-seen eternal Also referred to as Faith/Power (Christ's) to Faith/Power (Christ's)

God's understanding not or our own self.

God is not dying mankind .Jesus our brother in the Lord like all saints will arise in his new born again spirit on the last day under the Sun and receive the promise of a new incorruptible bodies .They will not subject to death and is awaiting (dead asleep ) for wake up call the last day under the sun in order to receive his new body as member of the eternal bride the church .

No longer Jew or gentile, male or female

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Nothing missing no disappearance of mankind for a thousand literal years with those who think The Son of man Jesus is going to return in his dying flesh .

According to 2 Corinthians below only one promised demonstration of the lam b who was slain during the 6 days the father di work no more demonstration of Christ working in our brother the Lord Jesus . His dying body has long returned to the dust

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

We do not the Father as Christ he cannot die. On the last day under the Sun the gate will close forever .

You might want to re-read that passage because it states he comes like a thief in the night, not leaves like one.

A thief comes and goes. I have read it. To me it makes no biblical sense

Christ is here reigning in a kingdoms of priests. believers are sent out as apostles from a foreign land, the city Christ prepared for his bride, many mansions.

The thief is Satan he come and goes like in Matthew 4 the beginning of the ministry of the two . And the lord rebuked the father of lies as it is writen three time the devil fled looking for another opportunity to work in the dark.

Satan the prince of darkness is the thief in every night looking to snatch the born again seed the living word of God, destroying its light

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (last day) so cometh as a thief in the night.

The word as denotes a parable is in view. Not God is a thief that comes in the darkness. It's not darkness we are waiting for.

The temporal historical (what the eyes see) must be compared or mixed to the eternal gospel understanding hid from natural mankind 2 Corinthians 4:18.

The father reveals to sons of God (Christians) the Day of the Lord, last day under the Sun we can watch for it but know man nknows athing of any time element . like the days of Noah he was given a golden measure of faith unknown the loving commandment of God to build a ark similar to the golden Ark having the same purpose hid what was inside from natural mankind. No sign to the end was given Noah had the soirt of watching for the day But God does not number days or peoples he desires we walk by faith the unseen eternal thing of God

The lord is not the thief in the night .His light guard us from darkness

Again not the Lord is the thief and we are waiting for him to come.

In that way our Father is here waiting with us for the last day under the Sun to complete the promise of the raising up some call rapture . Like what some call the parable of two Sons (the title is not inspired ) I call the parable of the "Waiting Father". long before the Son came in view the drawing power of the father made the son rise up (rapture)

Luke 15 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

God running before the son was in sight. his patience as a labor of love paid off

1 Peter 3:18-22 not once does mention the flesh of the Son man returning .God is not a man

We are in the tribulation the last days They began when the father gave words to the Son of man Jesus .It is finished

 

[Josheb]

I think it is the opening up of the east gate the heavenly gate or gate of mercy, the salvation gate.

The people to whom those verses were written were already saved.

All of the old testament shadows in ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the finished work of Christ....

That is true.

Today because the work is finished to be absence from these bodies of death is to have entered our eternal abode called a mansion.

That is true.

We look back to the opening of the salvation gate they looked ahead by the same Holy Spirit of faith

That is taking a lot of allegorical liberties with the text and applying to the recipients something they already possessed.

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................We are in the tribulation the last days They began when the father gave words to the Son of man Jesus .It is finished

Focus.

This op is about the "false doctrine of the secret rapture." Simple, direct, immediate and succinct op-relevant answers are valued.

A thief comes and goes.

Not in the scripture. It comes. No mention of going. Of course, practically speaking, tribulation eventually ends. A day of the Lord eventually ends. Salvation, however does not. So when arguing for a rapture that is salvation the premise it is like a thief that comes and goes, the necessary conclusion is that Jesus and his salvation are not eternal.

I suspect that is not what was intended.

I have read it.

Post prove otherwise. The scriptures state the theif comes. They do not state he goes, which is what the posts stated.

To me it makes no biblical sense.

That might be part of the problem.

 

[Mr GLee]

Post prove otherwise. The scriptures state the thief comes. They do not state he goes, which is what the posts stated.

He would have to come before he goes. The point is it's not something they can behold with their eyes.

It does not say he was caught red handed and jailed and never left.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Nothing about Jesus coming twice if the flesh On demonstration of the father working in the Son of man is all that is prpmiesd.

 

[Josheb]

He would have to come before he goes. The point is it's not something they can behold with their eyes.

It does not say he was caught red handed and jailed and never left.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Nothing about Jesus coming twice if the flesh On demonstration of the father working in the Son of man is all that is prpmiesd.

The point is what the scripture states, not what you or might infer from what is stated. There are only two places in the NT where a thief in the night are mentioned and neither is about salvation or a gate of salvation. Both NT mentions are drawing upon something the prophet Job said...

Job 24:13-14
Others have been with those who rebel against the light; they do not want to know its ways nor abide in its paths. The murderer arises at dawn; he kills the poor and the needy, and at night he is as a thief.


Jesus and Paul are not talking about salvation. Read what Zechariah wrote....

Zechariah 5:1-4
Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, there was a flying scroll. And he said to me, "What do you see?" And I answered, "I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits." Then he said to me, "This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according to the writing on the other side. "I will make it go forth," declares the LORD of hosts, "and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones."

It is not salvation.


Jesus left the temple after indicting the scribes and Pharisees, and declaring the temple desolate, and while the disciples admired the temple he told them it would be destroyed.

Matthew 24:1-3
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

They asked him one two-or three-part question directly related to what they had observed earlier that day (the entire narrative of that day covers six chapters = Mt. 21:18 - 26:6) and he answered that question. Within the answer he gave was,

Matthew 24:42-44
Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

No mention of salvation. No mention of removing the disciples from the planet. Jesus did not actually state a thief was coming. He made a simple analogy: if you knew when X was going to happen (and X is a bad thing) you would be on alert. I've already explained how the prior paragraph alludes to the flood's destruction (to the chagrin of those who subscribe to the false doctrine of the secret rapture) so I won't repeat that content. Any salvation implied in Jesus' answer is that of being saved from a temporal destruction - an additional salvation the already saved from sin in Christ would be blessed.

The only specific mention of "like a thief in the night" is in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

Here again the thing about which the readers are to be on alert is destruction, not salvation and not their removal from the planet. It is the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night and the day of the Lord brings destruction for those not in Christ. Brethren are not in darkness. The day would not, therefore overtake them. The saved in Christ will be saved from the destruction.

That is the plain reading of the text.

It is very clear in many places in the NT that the first century Christians were living in the las days (plural). Destruction did come and the Christians were spared while Israel and the artifices of Judaism were destroyed.



That being said, what was intended to be read literally can also be read allegorically - but not at the expense of dismissing the literal. The destruction of Israel and the preservation of the saints at that time can be interpreted as an analogy of what happens on the last day. The same thing can be said of Israel liberation from Egypt and their journey to the promised land. Calvary liberates us from the bondage of sin and brings us to promised land of immortality and eternal life. Reading Exodus as only allegorical denies the history of the Jews. Reading these NT passages only as allegory denies the history of Christians and it obfuscates the salvation(s) the saved experienced. Sometimes temporal salvation is illustrative of soteriological salvation, but the two are not identical. Sometimes soteriological salvation and eschatological salvation overlap (the salvation from sin Jesus brought occurred in the last times - 1 Pet. 1:20). Sometimes all three coincide: Those who were saved from sin by their fealty to the crucified and resurrected Son of God were also saved from the temporal destruction of Jerusalem during the last days and they will be raised to eternal life on the last day.




One last comment pertaining to something said earlier in your post. You mentioned being out of the body is to be with the Lord and God's "mansion". That was correct. It warrants clarification, though, because there are a lot of Christians who believe in a condition similar to the SDA's, JW's, and Christadelphian's "soul sleep," or the belief there is a period of time between when a person dies and when everyone stands before God for final judgment. Paul put it succinctly when he said, "we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). Some folks read that to mean "out of the person's physical body," while others read it to mean away from the Church or "out of the body of Christ here on earth when you die," but for the purposes of this post and this thread the difference does not matter because we are with Jesus not in a storage locker. The point being your observation about salvation and death is correct, but it has nothing to do with the thief coming in the night.

 

[Hobie]

A big question should be, who are the dead in Christ? I believe it is the martyrs as meantioned in Rev 20:4-5. It tells you who the dead in Christ are and it even says that they are the only people who are raised.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-5
Notice how it says that the rest of us are not raised up? So, we believers will not precede those that have fallen asleep. That is the martyrs. The martyrs will be raised first and reign for 1000 years. Then those that are left alive will be caught up into the air to meet with Christ. This is everybody will meet with Christ. Believer and non-believer, great and small dead and alive and we will all go to the Great White Throne to give an account of our lives.

Both are taken up, the dead in Christ and the living saints, none of the saints are left behind...

 

[Josheb]

Both are taken up, the dead in Christ and the living saints, none of the saints are left behind...

Then who is on earth coming through the great tribulation?

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

People who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb come out of the great tribulation. How can that be if unless the "taken up" happens after that tribulation?

Note also Revelation chapter 20 states, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." Not all of the dead are in Hades. Some are in the sea. If Hades and Death and the sea are all the same then why make distinctions? What leads you to conclude the sea's dead, Death's dead, and Hades' dead are all not saints? That giving up of the dead and their subsequent judgment are both post-millennial!

 

[Hodgie]

Both are taken up, the dead in Christ and the living saints, none of the saints are left behind...

1 Thes 4:15 says, "For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep." So, the dead in Christ are raised first and then those who are left until the end will later be raised at the end. The ones who are raised first are the martyrs as mentioned in Rev 20:4-6. No other person will be raised as it says in Rev 20:5.

Also, in 1Thes 4:17 it says, "Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words." The very first word in this text is "Then". The Greek word for this is "epeita". Epeita means, then, after that, afterward(s)" So, the word "then" does not mean, "right there and then", but later. It denotes that at a later time, we will be caught up with Him in the clouds".