Evangelism, rooted in scripture?

[ChristB4us]

Oh but it does matter in order to validate your point.

Depends on what you consider an apostle.

When a believer challenges the Catholic church practices and traditions by the scripture in rightly dividing the word of truth in using the meat of His words to discern good and evil, would you call that believer an apostle?

As I said...I'll wait. As it stands you are sounding more Gnostic by the minute.

How so?

I consider the Gnostics as tongues for private users which is gibberish nonsense for why secret or hidden knowledge is how they are best known by.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Depends on what you consider an apostle.

Then let's start there. What do you consider an apostle? The Apostles ( capital A ) displayed miraculous signs ( healings, raising the dead, ect ) for the establishment of the church. Fairly certain that type of apostle is no longer about.

Oh...and whenever someone tells me I simply don't have enough discernment instead of directly interacting with what I post I start hearing gnostic warning bells.

So...let's skip the entire charismatic gold dust, new teeth, and such. Point me to an "Apostle" that has been proven to raise the dead, cure blindness, maybe a little growing back of a finger. I know a few people who could use that.

Now to be fair I'm not saying that God cannot raise up an Apostle. I wonder what stripe the two witnesses will be? But pretty sure there are none running about right now.

 

[Mikeuk]

I think we need today more biblical, holy, humble, prayerful and heavenly ministers.

When Peter preached at Pentecost, at least 3000 were pricked in their hearts. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Acte 2:37.
Now there are no more apostles today but I believe the church has lost something distinctive when it comes to preaching.
Consider John the Baptist in Matthew 3:1-12 he preached about the wrath to come.

People just don't want to hear about sin anymore. Finney really had an impact on the world. Like Finney, many do not want to warn man about sin and the wrath to come because it loses converts and money.

However, the bible abounds with teaching about sin as guilt, defilement, depravity, and corruption in the human heart. But too many evangelists today say too little about sin. I wonder in some cases it's because they have little sense about sin themselves. It seems some believe the first thing they must do is win people to Christ by addressing their "felt needs." The things people think they need to hear about, rather than their real spiritual needs.

It seems that many who mention sin and man's guilt just don't go far enough. Don't seem there is much teaching on the natural man being so dead in sin, thet left to himself he is not able to seek God and His forgiveness. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Eph 2:1-3.
Romans 3:9-18.

They overlook verses such as, Romans 8:7, For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
And 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree.

I am not convinced you can blame preachers. It is a cultural decline.
Look on an historic perspective.

The so called enlightenment was in reality an excuse for hedonism.
The scientism used to justify it was just a means to an end.
Breaking free of the shackles of any moral code which was the goal.
The cult of self entitlement has taken over from responsibility.
Sin has proliferated

Now I see voices in all churches arguing for weakening limits in the name of "inclusivity"
Jesus is very clear about divorce, adultery and so on. From the didache onwards there was opposition to abortion.

To use an example from judaism, to avoid offending any particular group here:
Orthodox judaism, which opposes abortion, spawned a "reform judaism" which openly permits it.

Reform is now a by word for permissiveness. Designer religion. Pick and choose the rules you like.
Sixties liberalism imposed on religion.. If you do not like the preaching, create a congregation in your own image not Gods!

It is also fascinating that our culture now states as an article of faith "religion is the cause of all wars and genocides"
The truth can no longer get through. If you add up the cost of atheism and communism which devalue life - from the soviet Gulags, the chinese cultural revolution, in more recent times to pol pots killing fields, the genocied in Rwanda etc etc. These are hundreds of millions dead.
The crusades in comparison were a civilised affair. Saladdin sent Richard the Lionheart a bowl of fruit when ill. They tried to arrange a marriage to settle the future of jerusalem!

Whatever you think of the sacrament of confession is beside the point for my next statement:
In catholicism, the use of the sacrament, has rapidy declined , which is proof that the perception of sin has rapidly declined.

Again whatever you think of Fatima , the prophecy and apparitions:
The prime message of Fatima was very clear and I think pertinent to all Christians.
"do not offend God any more, He is already too much offended"
The seers were shown a vision of Hell to show it is real....

I think the way back, it is to show young people that the scientism and materialist view of existence is just pseudoscience.
It is why they no longer believe. They are wrongly told sceince "disproves" faith, God or both.
And by losing faith, so sin explodes.

 

[Arial]

Finney? Why do you provoke me, brother?

I agree that the soft peddling of the Gospel is anything but the Gospel. In order for the "Good News" to be good...the Bad News needs be applied first.

This is the first forum I have heard anyone mention Finny except me---and when I did there was absolutely no response to the statement about him.

He didn't have everything wrong but he is the one who opened wide the gates for a major heresy to become the foundation of the whole church, and with it all and any sort of false teaching. He might as well have called to the wolves and handed out sheep's clothing to them. A few pockets excepted. He got the sinfulness of man right and our need for a Savior and repentance but that is about the extent of gospel truth preached by him. He systematically set out to destroy his Presbyterian roots.

He brought in the altar call, teaching that man is his own Savior, just choose to be saved, which has morphed into sermons, and seminars, and media pleas, the greedy for money and power, that teach all these amazing benefits of earthly things that Jesus died so that we might have. And by the thousands, millions?, people gather before false apostles, false prophets, false teachers, seeking the loaves and fishes and invite! the risen Lord! to come into their life. All the while having been told nothing of who He is or what He did.

And from Finney who taught that emotion and experiences were enough, church leaders took classes to learn the tricks of the world, on how to stir emotions to such a pitch the brain is shut down. If it takes lies and deceit---so what---they come to the altar as notches in their belts. Do they feed the flock? No. Certainly not with bread from heaven.

I am stopping now and will let the rant that could go for some time, rest there.

 

[Carbon]

`When He ascended....He Himself gave some to be apostles, ....` (Eph. 4: 10 & 11)

`But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul...` (Acts 14: 14)

`Paul, Silvanus and Timothy.....nor did we seek glory from men neither from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2 6)

`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me` (Rom. 16: 7)

etc

Why do you disagree? The apostles God gave us weren’t good enough? You want more?

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers

Do you have scripture teaching God gives us more and more apostles?

 

[Carbon]

I agree with @Marilyn C that God is still supplying apostles today.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Not sure what makes an apostle differ from those other "offices" and although some would believe it means having seen Jesus Christ directly like Paul did by way of a vision or for when He was on earth as His disciples did, I cannot believe that would be accurate way to ascertain who an apostle is.

Granted not very many people today are identifying themselves as an apostle but that does not mean God has not given them to be an apostle & those other offices when it is about edifying the body of Christ in love.

Post in thread 'Evangelism, rooted in scripture?'
https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/evangelism-rooted-in-scripture.93/post-4496

 

[Carbon]

Not sure what makes an apostle differ from those other "offices" and although some would believe it means having seen Jesus Christ directly like Paul did by way of a vision or for when He was on earth as His disciples did, I cannot believe that would be accurate way to ascertain who an apostle is.

No offense but your opinion and lack of understanding don’t change the fact that there are no more apostles.

Granted not very many people today are identifying themselves as an apostle but that does not mean God has not given them to be an apostle & those other offices when it is about edifying the body of Christ in love.

They are making a false claim. Probably wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Would you present any passages teaching God gave more apostles? Other that the ones when Christ walked the earth that Eph 4 teaches?

 

[ChristB4us]

Then let's start there. What do you consider an apostle? The Apostles ( capital A ) displayed miraculous signs ( healings, raising the dead, ect ) for the establishment of the church. Fairly certain that type of apostle is no longer about.

So an apostle is someone who establishes a church? Where did you get that from in scripture?

I have no idea from scripture what an apostle does other than God has them for the edification of the body of Christ in love as other positions do.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Oh...and whenever someone tells me I simply don't have enough discernment instead of directly interacting with what I post I start hearing gnostic warning bells.

Can you connect that to something the Gnostics would do or teach? Are there any Gnostics around today?

So...let's skip the entire charismatic gold dust, new teeth, and such. Point me to an "Apostle" that has been proven to raise the dead, cure blindness, maybe a little growing back of a finger. I know a few people who could use that.

Miracles can be found in Roman idolatry too.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

I'd post this video per the media button below but I remember that @preacher4truth says that any more than one video in the thread does something to the thread and I cannot recall it right now and so I'll just provide a link instead.

Kundalini; The False Holy Spirit in Churches

The point of this is that healings and miracles can occur for why Jesus warned believers about that.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And so saved believers can go astray too by chasing after a rudiment in the world by receiving spirits by a sign or for a miracle, thinking that is the Holy Spirit.

Now to be fair I'm not saying that God cannot raise up an Apostle.

Okay.

I wonder what stripe the two witnesses will be?

Scripture just calls them the two witnesses in Revelation. So I do not know either.

But pretty sure there are none running about right now.

In these matter days where faith is hard to find and only a few will find it, reads to me that many are ignoring Hos words about how God the father wants us to come to Him only by and how to only honor Him by and because of the Nicene creed and church practices, nobody is seeing that offense let alone why Jesus is saying strive ye to enter through that straight gate after broadening the way by including the Holy Spirit as if He is another way to come to God the Father by and to honor Him by... and He is not per John 14:6 & John 5:22-23

So would wayward saved believers recognize an apostle when they hear His words but believe He did not really meant that in favor of church traditions & practices which pretty much is what the catholic Church is doing in those that oppose her teachings by the scripture?

 

[ChristB4us]

Why do you disagree? The apostles God gave us weren’t good enough? You want more?

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers

Do you have scripture teaching God gives us more and more apostles?

And

Post in thread 'Evangelism, rooted in scripture?'
https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/evangelism-rooted-in-scripture.93/post-4496

What does an apostle and those other offices do?

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Can we tell the difference between those offices? I do not know, and yet for the purpose of those offices, apostles cannot cease to exist.

 

[ChristB4us]

No offense but your opinion and lack of understanding don’t change the fact that there are no more apostles.

They are making a false claim. Probably wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Would you present any passages teaching God gave more apostles? Other that the ones when Christ walked the earth that Eph 4 teaches?

What are those offices for? Seems like a weekly if not daily purpose for God to provide for the edification of the church for why there are still apostles, unless you eliminate prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers too.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Carbon]

And

What does an apostle and those other offices do?

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Can we tell the difference between those offices? I do not know, and yet for the purpose of those offices, apostles cannot cease to exist.

If you don’t know then why do you agree or disagree?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

So an apostle is someone who establishes a church? Where did you get that from in scripture?

No...an Apostle is someone who established the church through signs and wonders. And you know that as the Scriptures plainly state. You want a list of the Apostles performing miracles?

I have no idea from scripture what an apostle does other than God has them for the edification of the body of Christ in love as other positions do.

I have to take this as deflection. You are obviously conversant with the Scriptures so your claims of ignorance fall flat.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And? This refutes me how again? If your definition of apostle ( little "a" ) is simply this then we are in agreement.

Can you connect that to something the Gnostics would do or teach? Are there any Gnostics around today?

Sure...but since you seem to be pushing for a definition when you already know the definition

Gnosticism

Gnosticism teaches there is good and evil, spirit and matter, light and dark, etc. dualism in the universe. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son.

carm.org

Miracles can be found in Roman idolatry too.

Supernatural events can be claimed by any number of people. And will. So say the Scriptures. But that is a rabbit trail.

Now...define apostle. If you simply mean "messenger" then I'm with you. If you mean someone speaking a new word from God, or raising the dead, or such...not buying it.

 

[Deleted member 5]

I agree with @Marilyn C that God is still supplying apostles today.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Not sure what makes an apostle differ from those other "offices"

Yes, you are not sure what makes them differ. For that reason, you should stop teaching the error and find out why.

Granted not very many people today are identifying themselves as an apostle

And they shouldn't. That's the job of Christ, biblically speaking, and that's where and when they were appointed. They were called, appointed, and sent out by the Person of Christ alone.

but that does not mean God has not given them to be an apostle

He hasn't.

& those other offices

Apples and oranges.

when it is about edifying the body of Christ in love.

The above is nothing but sentimentalism and subjective emotionalism, not sound doctrine.

 

[Deleted member 5]

If you don’t know then why do you agree or disagree?

Exactly!

 

[ChristB4us]

If you don’t know then why do you agree or disagree?

Because the edification of the body of Christ in love is still going on today so how can anyone say there are no apostles without denying those other offices?

 

[Carbon]

Because the edification of the body of Christ in love is still going on today so how can anyone say there are no apostles without denying those other offices?

Where does it indicate that God keeps giving apostles?
How do you know in that verse means more that the ones that Christ called?

 

[Carbon]

Where does it indicate that God keeps giving apostles?
How do you know in that verse means more that the ones that Christ called?

@ChristB4us

All it will take is scripture support.

I’ll be waiting

 

[ChristB4us]

No...an Apostle is someone who established the church through signs and wonders. And you know that as the Scriptures plainly state. You want a list of the Apostles performing miracles?

@Carbon

Just one scripture that testify to why an apostle is called an apostle by signs and wonders.

I have to take this as deflection. You are obviously conversant with the Scriptures so your claims of ignorance fall flat.

And? This refutes me how again? If your definition of apostle ( little "a" ) is simply this then we are in agreement.

And what designates by the scripture the difference between a capitalized apostle from a apostle?

Sure...but since you seem to be pushing for a definition when you already know the definition

Gnosticism

Gnosticism teaches there is good and evil, spirit and matter, light and dark, etc. dualism in the universe. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son.

carm.org

Not really. I doubt historians know that much about them either other than what Gnosticism means.

Supernatural events can be claimed by any number of people. And will. So say the Scriptures. But that is a rabbit trail.

Yet false Christ can arise with signs and wonders to deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Not so sure one can attest that an apostle are ones that do signs and wonders as proving themselves as apostles when this can happen.

How about the definition of what a false apostle does? Will that help by seeing the opposite for what an apostle does?

2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 16 I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

So kind of like Billy Graham as a false apostle, right? Bringing believers into bondage by making a commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it, they can gain the assurance of salvation.

Now...define apostle. If you simply mean "messenger" then I'm with you. If you mean someone speaking a new word from God, or raising the dead, or such...not buying it.

How about an apostle is one who by the grace of God & His help, rightly dividing the word of truth in exhorting them to follow Christ by faith in Jesus Christ. Can I find that as teaching that is what an apostle does? It is akin to all those other offices in edifying the body of Christ in love.

 

[Deleted member 5]

I'd post this video per the media button below but I remember that @preacher4truth says that any more than one video in the thread does something to the thread and I cannot recall it right now and so I'll just provide a link instead.

Yes, one video per thread as per @Carbon.

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes, one video per thread as per @Carbon.

I recollected wrong then. I thought you had posted that earlier.

Do you know what posting more than one video to the thread does?

Anyway, I cannot change my posts where I had posted several videos but if it is really a bother, one can always edit the post by switching out the media link to just a link to the video which is what I hope I remember to do from now on.