Doxology

[Red Baker]

Contraire. . .

plus tard....I have a short trip to take, but do desire to address your post.

 

[civic]

Careful dear sister~God was not the Son, the Son was God.

Jesus was not the second person of the Trinity~Jesus was the I AM THAT I AM in his divinity as the Word in the beginning. The Word without any qualifications was God, period.


No, that is not correct~The Word (which was God ) became flesh as it joined himself to the tabernacle of God's son conceived in the womb by the power of the Highest.

Dear sister, there was no son in the beginning ( only in covenant ) ~Jesus was born around two thousand years ago.

And you would be 100% wrong. God is Immutable. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Eternal and Unchanging.

Throughout church history the doctrine of eternal Sonship has been widely held, with most Christians believing that Jesus existed as God’s eternal Son before creation. It is affirmed in the Nicene Creed (325 A.D.) which states: "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." It was also later reaffirmed in the fifth century in the Athanasian Creed.

There is considerable biblical evidence to support the eternal Sonship of Christ. First of all, there are many passages that clearly identify that it was “the Son” who created all things (Colossians 1:13-16; Hebrews 1:2), thereby strongly implying that Christ was the Son of God at the time of creation. When one considers these passages, it seems clear that the most normal and natural meaning of the passages is that at the time of creation Jesus was the Son of God, the second Person of the Triune Godhead, thus supporting the doctrine of eternal Sonship.

Second, there are numerous verses that speak of God the Father sending the Son into the world to redeem sinful man (John 20:21; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 4:10) and giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin (John 3:16). Clearly implied in all the passages that deal with the Father sending/giving the Son is the fact that He was the Son before He was sent into the world. This is even more clearly seen in Galatians 4:4-6, where the term “sent forth” is used both of the Son and the Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit did not become the Holy Spirit when He was sent to empower the believers at Pentecost, neither did the Son become the Son at the moment of His incarnation. All three Persons of the Triune Godhead have existed for all eternity, and their names reveal who they are, not simply what their title or function is.

Third, 1 John 3:8 speaks of the appearance or manifestation of the Son of God: “the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” The verb “to make manifest” or “appeared” means to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. The idea communicated in this verse is not that the second Person of the trinity became the Son of God, but that the already existing Son of God was made manifest or appeared in order to fulfill God’s predetermined purpose. This idea is also seen in other verses such as John 11:27 and 1 John 5:20.

Fourth, Hebrews 13:8 teaches that “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.” This verse again seems to support the doctrine of eternal Sonship. The fact that Jesus’ divine nature is unchanging would seem to indicate that He was always the Son of God because that is an essential part of His Person. At the incarnation Jesus took on human flesh, but His divine nature did not change, nor did His relationship with the Father. This same truth is also implied in John 20:31, where we see John’s purpose in writing his gospel was so that we might “believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” It does not say that He became the Son of God but that He is the Son of God. The fact that Jesus was and is the Son of God is an essential aspect of Who He is and His work in redemption.

Finally, one of the strongest evidences for the eternal Sonship of Christ is the triune nature of God and the eternal relationship that exists among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Particularly important is the unique Father/Son relationship that can only be understood from the aspect of Christ’s eternal Sonship. This relationship is key to understanding the full measure of God’s love for those whom He redeems through the blood of Christ. The fact that God the Father took His Son, the very Son He loved from before the foundation of the world, and sent Him to be a sacrifice for our sins is an amazing act of grace and love that is best understood from the doctrine of eternal Sonship.

 

[civic]

continued below:

One verse that speaks of the eternal relationship between the Father and Son is John 16:28. "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father." Implied in this verse is again the fact that the Father/Son relationship between God the Father and God the Son is one that always has and always will exist. At His incarnation the Son “came from the Father” in the same sense as upon His resurrection He returned “to the Father.” Implied in this verse is the fact that if Jesus was the Son after the resurrection, then He was also the Son prior to His incarnation. Other verses that support the eternal Sonship of Christ would include John 17:5 and John 17:24, which speak of the Father’s love for the Son from “before the foundation of the world.”

After one considers the many arguments for the doctrine of eternal Sonship, it should become clear that this is indeed a biblical doctrine that finds much support in Scripture. However, that is not to imply that arguments cannot be made against the doctrine as well, or that all Christians will agree to this doctrine. While it has been the view of the majority of Christian commentators throughout history, there have been several prominent Christians on the other side of the issue as well.

Those that deny the doctrine of eternal Sonship would instead hold to a view that is often referred to as the Incarnational Sonship, which teaches that while Christ preexisted, He was not always the Son of God. Those that hold this view believe Christ became the Son of God at some point in history, with the most common view being that Christ became the Son at His incarnation. However, there are others who believe Christ did not become the Son until sometime after His incarnation, such as at His baptism, His resurrection, or His exaltation. It is important to realize that those who deny the eternal Sonship of Christ still recognize and affirm His deity and His eternality.

Those who hold this view see the Sonship of Christ as not being an essential part of Who He is, but instead see it as simply being a role or a title or function that Christ assumed at His incarnation. They also teach that the Father became the Father at the time of the incarnation. Throughout history many conservative Christians have denied the doctrine of eternal Sonship. Some examples would include Ralph Wardlaw, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Finis J. Dake, Walter Martin, and at one time John MacArthur. It is important to note, however, that several years ago John MacArthur changed his position on this doctrine and he now affirms the doctrine of eternal Sonship.

One of the verses commonly used to support Incarnational Sonship is Hebrews 1:5, which appears to speak of God the Father’s begetting of God the Son as an event that takes place at a specific point in time: “Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. And again. I will be a Father to Him. And He shall be a Son to Me.” Those who hold to the doctrine of incarnational Sonship point out two important aspects of this verse. 1—that “begetting” normally speaks of a person’s origin, and 2—that a Son is normally subordinate to his father. They reject the doctrine of eternal Sonship in an attempt to preserve the perfect equality and eternality of the Persons of the Triune Godhead. In order to do so, they must conclude that “Son” is simply a title or function that Christ took on at His incarnation and that “Sonship” refers to the voluntary submission that Christ to the Father at His incarnation (Philippians 2:5-8; John 5:19).got?

Some of the problems with the Incarnational Sonship of Christ are that this teaching confuses or destroys the internal relationships that exist within the Trinity, because if the Son is not eternally begotten by the Father, then neither did the Spirit eternally proceed from the Father through the Son. Also, if there is no Son prior to the incarnation, then there is no Father either; and yet throughout the Old Testament we see God being referred to as the Father of Israel. Instead of having a triune God eternally existing in three distinct Persons with three distinct names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, those who hold to the doctrine of incarnational Sonship end up with a nameless Trinity prior to the incarnation, and we would be forced to say that God has chosen not to reveal Himself as He truly is, but only as He was to become. In other words, instead of actually revealing who He is, the Triune God instead chose to reveal Himself by the titles He would assume or the roles that He would take on and not who He really is. This is dangerously close to modalism and could easily lead to false teachings about the nature of God. One of the weaknesses of the doctrine of incarnational Sonship is that the basic relationships existing among the members of the Trinity are confused and diminished. Taken to its logical conclusion, denying the eternal Sonship of Christ reduces the Trinity from the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to simply Number One, Number Two and Number Three Persons—with the numbers themselves being an arbitrary designation, destroying the God-given order and relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !


2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.

Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

2 Tim 4:22
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Philem 25
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Heb 13:20-21
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:14
Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:


2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.


Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.


Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

Did you read how God and Jesus aren't the same person in any of the doxologies? That means Jesus isn't God. The God is the Father.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was not the second person of the Trinity~Jesus was the I AM THAT I AM in his divinity as the Word in the beginning. The Word without any qualifications was God, period.

Not according to Scripture. The I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; that isn't Jesus.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.
Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

 

[Fred]

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-is-eternal-subordination-of-the-son-ess.1473/page-5#post-61101

 

[civic]

Did you read how God and Jesus aren't the same person in any of the doxologies? That means Jesus isn't God. The God is the Father.

You must not understand the difference between Trinitarians and Modalists. We Trins are not modalists.

 

[Runningman]

You must not understand the difference between Trinitarians and Modalists. We Trins are not modalists.

I do understand the difference. I know you're a trin and wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I am saying trinitarianism is false.

 

[civic]

I do understand the difference. I know you're a trin and wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I am saying trinitarianism is false.

Yes just as I believe unitarians are wrong about God. God is love destroys the unitarian position. A Solitary person/ being cannot know or experience love- It takes another to know, experience and share love.

God is love is false in unitarianism.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Yes just as I believe unitarians are wrong about God. God is love destroys the unitarian position. A Solitary person/ being cannot know or experience love- It takes another to know, experience and share love.

I also believe God is love. I am not sure what angle you're trying to play here.

God is love is false in unitarianism.

God is love. Why do you say I don't believe that?

I believe this.

1 John 4
16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

hope this helps !!!

God being love isn't something different between Unitarians and trinitarians, but thanks for sharing anyway.

 

[Mr GLee]

The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !

All of dying mankind falls short of His glory . Jesus the Son of man reflected the glory of the Father (not the source )

Big difference like with the Sun as a source of light and a moon to represent the reflected glory of the Sun
His glory of the Father works in all children of Light (Christians )

Remember God is light and not that he can only create it temporally .

He created the Sun and Moon as corruption timekeepers winding down to the last day under the Sun. He uses that parable throughout the Bible

When he said let there be light his very presence entered the picture and exposed the things of darkness

On the 3rd day God saw false pride in the heart of Lucifer and His glory as Light departed. It will return ,in the new heavens and earth. There will be no Sun or Moon . Just as it was the first three days but in the new there will be no more night forever more .

Genesis 1: 14-17 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth

Psalm 19:1-6 King James Version1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

 

[Fred]

All of dying mankind falls short of His glory . Jesus the Son of man reflected the glory of the Father (not the source )

Big difference like with the Sun as a source of light and a moon to represent the reflected glory of the Sun
His glory of the Father works in all children of Light (Christians )

Remember God is light and not that he can only create it temporally .

He created the Sun and Moon as corruption timekeepers winding down to the last day under the Sun. He uses that parable throughout the Bible

Christians are not the proper recipient of doxologies because they are not God.

Jesus is the proper recipient of doxologies which prove He is God.

 

[Runningman]

Christians are not the proper recipient of doxologies because they are not God.

Jesus is the proper recipient of doxologies which prove He is God.

Not according to Jesus in Matthew 6:6,9. Jesus said to pray only to the Father hence why there is nothing clear or explicit about praying to Jesus in the entire Bible.

 

[Fred]

Not according to Jesus in Matthew 6:6,9

You had to jump away from doxologies to Jesus because they refute your heresy.

 

[Mr GLee]

Christians are not the proper recipient of doxologies because they are not God.

Jesus is the proper recipient of doxologies which prove He is God.

Yes Jesus the Christ the anointing Holy Sp[irt of the father. And not jesus the son of man our brother in the lord he reflected glory of the father .he would never stand in the unsen rsnce of God our one source of faith His working in uto both will and do his good pleasure

One kneeled to the Son of man in worship called jesu the Son of man the one and only good God.he would not dare to usrpe the authrity of the father as if it came from dying mankind.

Mark 10:17-18King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

God is not a man. Jesus the Son of man he is our brother in the lord .That is if we hear and do the will of his father

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

A distinction must be made between Jesus Christ the anointing/teaching Holy Spirit of the Father And Jesus the Son of man who was anointed by the Holy Father in heaven.

Satan would make it all one in the same. It's his goal to seduce dying mankind that God is a Jewish man as King of earthly kings kings Lord of earthly lords

God is not a man as us.

 

[Fred]

Yes Jesus the Christ the anointing Holy Sp[irt of the father. And not jesus the son of man

False dichotomy

 

[Mr GLee]

Christians are not the proper recipient of doxologies because they are not God.

Jesus is the proper recipient of doxologies which prove He is God.

Mankind living in dying bodies, mankind does not receive any doxology as glory . All glory belongs to God like the Sun. moon and stars. We are a reflection of his glory, children of light. His "superstars" .

Deuteronomy 1:10 The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

 

[Fred]

Mankind living in dying bodies, mankind does not receive any doxology as glory . All glory belongs to God like the Sun. moon and stars. We are a reflection of his glory, children of light. His "superstars" .

Deuteronomy 1:10 The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Jesus, being the Son of Man, is the proper recipient of pelach in Daniel 7:14.
One of the ways of offering pelach (Daniel 6:16) is by prayer (Daniel 6:10).

This proves the Son of Man (Jesus) is the proper recipient of prayer.

 

[Mr GLee]

False dichotomy

When the disciples that walked by sight (no faith as it is writen sola scriptura ,They were hoping Jewish flesh could profit for something.

They like you it seemed refused to separate the anointing teacher Christ, the Holy Spirit of the Father. from dying mankind Jesus
The lie. . Not taught of God but taught of the Jesus Son of man, dying mankind

Again big difference between the teacher, our Holy Father and the one being taught, brother and sisters in the Lord

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again we do not not learn as taught of the Son of man Jesus dying mankind We have his power that works in us but would never say it is of our dying flesh and blood.

God is not a man as us. Thats Satan's goal to deceive mankind that we do need dying mankind to teach us .

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Fred]

When the disciples that walked by sight (no faith as it is writen sola scriptura ,They were hoping Jewish flesh could profit for something.

They like you it seemed refused to separate the anointing teacher Christ, the Holy Spirit of the Father. from dying mankind Jesus
The lie. . Not taught of God but taught of the Jesus Son of man, dying mankind

Again big difference between the teacher, our Holy Father and the one being taught, brother and sisters in the Lord

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again we do not not learn as taught of the Son of man Jesus dying mankind We have his power that works in us but would never say it is of our dying flesh and blood.

God is not a man as us. Thats Satan's goal to deceive mankind that we do need dying mankind to teach us .

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Daniel 7:14 is still there.
So are the doxologies to Jesus.