Does God draw everyone?

[Arial]

Everything in Post 19 has been acknowledged and added to over the last 19 posts, as well as several in the thread that prompted this op. Is there some specific furtherance of this discussion in Post 19 I am supposed to garner because, if so, I have missed it. Would you mind clarifying it? thx

When Jesus is lifted up all men are drawn to him..... but only those who believe in him will have eternal life...... AND nothing in scripture states that drawing is the only drawing or the only means of drawing.

You changed the subject to every use of "drawing" rather than "Does God draw everyone?" and the scripture that was used in conjunction with that question. And then impugned the OP. But no biggie.

 

[Carbon]

That is incorrect and you've just misused scripture and contradicted yourself. John 10 is not the only use of drawing in scripture (that one mention does not define all of scripture), Judas was, in fact drawn, drawn as the son of perdition, drawn as the son of perdition by God's design, and drawn not to Jesus for purposes other than salvation.

Yes, a person is drawn because God opens his heart, but a person is also drawn in other ways (such as when their eyes are opened (or their ears), When you say "when" you are not talking about how. This op asks about how, not just if (or when).

Those are yes or no questions (and the second one assumes the "everyone" as a given). The questions beg explanation.

You have proven He does draw. You have not proven He draws everyone in the same way, especially not with scripture, and especially not in a manner disproving the many examples I provided.

I suppose it could be argued God used affliction to draw Naaman (2 Kings 5) and Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2-4) as a common method (or "way") but they were entirely different afflictions with entirely different methods for bring the pagan to acknowledging God as God. I think a reasonable case might be made for Naaman's conversion but not so much for Neb. Daniel was able to use Cyrus' pride when showing God had mentioned him in prophecy hundreds of years before Cyrus was born, drawing him to God's purpose, but not to salvation. The Bible is filled with diverse accounts of God's diverse ways of drawing men to His diverse purposes. In fact, if you say God has provided everyone some way of knowing the gospel then all have been drawn. You cannot then say, "All those who are drawn believe," without contradicting the belief all people know the gospel in some way sufficient to make them without excuse when they stand before God on the other side of the grave.

For now because my time is limited I’ll just say, if Judas was drawn he would have been a believer.

Sometimes I think you’re a closet synergist. No offense intended, I’m just sayin.

 

[Josheb]

You changed the subject to every use of "drawing" rather than "Does God draw everyone?" and the scripture that was used in conjunction with that question. And then impugned the OP. But no biggie.

That is incorrect.

This op asks

Does God draw everyone, and does He draw every one the same way?

Consider what Jesus said,
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

So, is the drawing universal? Or does God draw those He chose?

Can you prove your beliefs with scripture?

The first question precedes the citing of John 6:44 and John 6:44 is cited as a consideration, not the sole context or qualifier of all God's drawing. This op, as I noted, was prompted by the earlier thread in which this matter of drawing arose within the much larger context of God vilating man's will (although that is not mentioned in this op).

Does God draw everyone? Yes
Does God draw everyone the same way? No.
Consider the drawing of John 6:44. That is an excellent example of God drawing but the "drawing should be understood as an active, strenuous, monergistic drawing and not something passive or collaborative AND that verse does not define all that scripture has to say about God's drawing people to His Son. The larger text of John 6 passage stipulates resurrection and eternal life but, again, the larger passage does not define all that scripture has to say about God drawing sinners to His Son.
Is the drawing universal? According to John 12 it is, but it is not all universally salvific.
Does God draw those He chose? Yes.
Can you prove your beliefs? Yes.

The questions asked were answered and answered op-relevantly and supported with scripture both here in this thread and in the thread prompting this thread (where a wider sampling of whole scripture can be found).

You changed the subject....

Never happened.

In that scripture the drawing is coming to Him in saving faith, because He says He will give them eternal life. Within the entire context we find that only certain ones are drawn and those are the ones the Father is giving to Jesus. They would be the same ones we see in John 10---His sheep who hear His voice, who He knows, and they follow Him. They are the same ones in John 3 who the Spirit has regenerated. That drawing is not universal. They are the same ones we see in Romans who are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Yes, but that passage does not define the whole of scripture. John 12 plainly states ALL men are drawn to Christ, not just those he will raise on the last day to eternal life. John 6:44 does not contradict John 12:32.

When scripture is used selectively then it can be made to say anything, and Calvinism is easy to "prove" that way. Arminianism, Provisionism, Pelagianism, and any other ~ism is likewise easily proven, but selective use is abuse and it proves nothing.

If you dropped into the thread solely for the purpose of telling me I'm off-topic than I got your message. Thanks. If you've got something more to add to the topical discussion I am having then do please further the conversation. Otherwise, I've received and understood your position.

 

[Josheb]

For now because my time is limited I’ll just say, if Judas was drawn he would have been a believer.

Can that be amended to say, "If Judas was drawn to Jesus for the purpose of salvation then he would be a believer"?

You cannot make John 6:44 contradict John 12:32.

Sometimes I think you’re a closet synergist. No offense intended, I’m just sayin.

No offense taken. Blessedly, I am not the subject of this discussion. The facts in evidence are that I back up everything I post with whole scripture, examining its diversity and not proof-texting any one verse or small passage. When commenting on an extra-biblical author (like Calvin or Arminius) I go to the original source (and not second-hand or third-hand ones). Furthermore, more often than not, when you've considered my posts you often agree and that sometimes entails changes in your pov. The previously cited op on sanctification proves it. No offense intended . Furthermore, I have gone on record explicitly the drawing of John 6:44 and 12:32 are wholly monergistic.

And you're not just saying.


So..... if we can get back to the topic at hand, how do you reconcile John 6:44 with John 12:32? ALL men are drawn to the lifted-up Jesus. Even Judas. Not all are drawn to him for resurrection and eternal life.

 

[Carbon]

Can that be amended to say, "If Judas was drawn to Jesus for the purpose of salvation then he would be a believer"?

What’s wrong with saying it like I did? Is it not biblical? I think you’re looking for something that just isn’t there. So stop adding it.

You cannot make John 6:44 contradict John 12:32.

You’re falsely accusing.
Jesus draws all men unto himself. These all men are believers. Think about that.

God does not do His part, to draw all of Adam’s posterity and then let them make a choice. Ultimately, that is what you are saying.

 

[Carbon]

Can that be amended to say, "If Judas was drawn to Jesus for the purpose of salvation then he would be a believer"?

And if Judas came, as you seem to say he did from being drawn. Will he be lifted up on the last day? Will he be given eternal life?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Does God draw everyone, and does He draw every one the same way?

Obviously not (Rom 9). God has mercy on some, and HARDENS others. Simple as that. That's all tangled up in "election" theology.

 

[Arial]

That is incorrect.

This op asks

The first question precedes the citing of John 6:44 and John 6:44 is cited as a consideration, not the sole context or qualifier of all God's drawing. This op, as I noted, was prompted by the earlier thread in which this matter of drawing arose within the much larger context of God vilating man's will (although that is not mentioned in this op).

Does God draw everyone? Yes
Does God draw everyone the same way? No.
Consider the drawing of John 6:44. That is an excellent example of God drawing but the "drawing should be understood as an active, strenuous, monergistic drawing and not something passive or collaborative AND that verse does not define all that scripture has to say about God's drawing people to His Son. The larger text of John 6 passage stipulates resurrection and eternal life but, again, the larger passage does not define all that scripture has to say about God drawing sinners to His Son.
Is the drawing universal? According to John 12 it is, but it is not all universally salvific.
Does God draw those He chose? Yes.
Can you prove your beliefs? Yes.

The questions asked were answered and answered op-relevantly and supported with scripture both here in this thread and in the thread prompting this thread (where a wider sampling of whole scripture can be found).

Never happened.

Yes, but that passage does not define the whole of scripture. John 12 plainly states ALL men are drawn to Christ, not just those he will raise on the last day to eternal life. John 6:44 does not contradict John 12:32.

When scripture is used selectively then it can be made to say anything, and Calvinism is easy to "prove" that way. Arminianism, Provisionism, Pelagianism, and any other ~ism is likewise easily proven, but selective use is abuse and it proves nothing.

If you dropped into the thread solely for the purpose of telling me I'm off-topic than I got your message. Thanks. If you've got something more to add to the topical discussion I am having then do please further the conversation. Otherwise, I've received and understood your position.

Like I said, "no biggie."

 

[Josheb]

What’s wrong with saying it like I did?

I have already answered that question and explain how and why. John 12:32 states all men are drawn to Christ. Therefore, John 6:44 cannot be made to say only some men are drawn to Christ. The reconciliation of those two lies in the specified context of John 6 and the specified context of John 12. Some men are drawn to Jesus for resurrection and eternal life, but all men are drawn to Christ for judgment.

Therefore, the belief only the elect are drawn to Christ is incorrect, and so too is the earlier statement, "All those who are drawn believe." John 12:32 necessarily precludes the former and the many, many verses about Jesus condemning and casting out the non-believers precludes the latter.

Is it not biblical?

No, the premise ONLY the elect are drawn to Christ is not biblical. The biblically accurate position is that God draws all of the elect to Christ for salvation (or, more specifically as far as John 6 goes, He draws them to His Son for resurrection and eternal life). Everyone else is also drawn to Christ whereby they are judged, confess him as Lord, and then get shipped of in their already-existing state of condemnation (a state that currently exists and is NOT limited to any "church age" or the other side of the grave). Just as the John 6 text is couched in resurrection and eternal life, the John 12:32 text is explicitly couched in judgment of the not believing.

John 12:27-40
"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Judgment. Not believing. Those prophesied not to believe what they heard. Those prophesied not to believe to whom the arm of the LORD had been revealed. Those who had been blinded, hardened, and blinded and hardened so they would not be healed.

So, no, the only-some-are-drawn and the all-men-drawn-believe and the only-elect-are-drawn positions are not biblical. Only the elect are drawn by God to His Son for salvation. All others are drawn to the Son for judgment without salvation.

I think you’re looking for something that just isn’t there. So stop adding it.

You’re falsely accusing.

Never happened. However, for the sake of fellowship I will rephrase what I said. NO ONE can make view John 6:44 in a manner that contradicts John 12:32. Not me, or you, or Lucy, or Ricky, or anyone else. Doing so violates the precept of scripture speaking cohesively and never contradicting itself.

Is that better?

Jesus draws all men unto himself. These all men are believers. Think about that.

I have. It is wrong. It is wrong for the reasons already posted.

God does not do His part, to draw all of Adam’s posterity and then let them make a choice.

I agree and have never said any such thing (unless openly playing the part of the Arminian as the proverbial "devil's advocate"). I have repeatedly stated the sinner's will is irrelevant. There is no choice and even if there were it is irrelevant. God does not consider the sinner's faculties, attributes, or works. Nothing of the sinner is meritorious and God in no way is ever dependent upon anything of the creature, especially nothing sinful. I have posted these statements scores of times so it cannot truthfully be said I have ever stated God "let them make a choice." No such thing has ever happened in this forum (two decades ago when I was a synergist I said such things but it's never happened here).

And I'd like to know why my posts are being so grossly misrepresented.

Ultimately, that is what you are saying.

Prove it.


Quote me stating "God does not do His part to draw all of Adam's posterity and then let them make a choice." If that cannot be done then quote me necessarily implying such a thing. Do it now, please.

 

[Carbon]

Yes, a person is drawn because God opens his heart,

That’s why they are drawable.
Consider Lydia.

Consider Jesus’ words,
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me John 6:45.

What about those who are not being drawn when they hear the Word? Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. John 6:43.

They grumble, they resist. And the more they hear, the more they grumble and resist.

So what did Jesus say? After, do not grumble among yourselves?
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

It’s pretty simple actually. Just let scripture speak.

 

[Carbon]

That’s why they are drawable.
Consider Lydia.

What an awesome passage for all those who are drawn.
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. Acts 16.

 

[Carbon]

.Prove it.

Why do I have to prove it? This thread isn’t about you. I’m just reading what your writing, your proving it yourself. You don’t see it?

 

[Carbon]

I have already answered that question and explain how and why. John 12:32 states all men are drawn to Christ. Therefore, John 6:44 cannot be made to say only some men are drawn to Christ. The reconciliation of those two lies in the specified context of John 6 and the specified context of John 12. Some men are drawn to Jesus for resurrection and eternal life, but all men are drawn to Christ for judgment.

Therefore, the belief only the elect are drawn to Christ is incorrect, and so too is the earlier statement, "All those who are drawn believe." John 12:32 necessarily precludes the former and the many, many verses about Jesus condemning and casting out the non-believers precludes the latter.

No, the premise ONLY the elect are drawn to Christ is not biblical. The biblically accurate position is that God draws all of the elect to Christ for salvation (or, more specifically as far as John 6 goes, He draws them to His Son for resurrection and eternal life). Everyone else is also drawn to Christ whereby they are judged, confess him as Lord, and then get shipped of in their already-existing state of condemnation (a state that currently exists and is NOT limited to any "church age" or the other side of the grave). Just as the John 6 text is couched in resurrection and eternal life, the John 12:32 text is explicitly couched in judgment of the not believing.

John 12:27-40
"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Judgment. Not believing. Those prophesied not to believe what they heard. Those prophesied not to believe to whom the arm of the LORD had been revealed. Those who had been blinded, hardened, and blinded and hardened so they would not be healed.

So, no, the only-some-are-drawn and the all-men-drawn-believe and the only-elect-are-drawn positions are not biblical. Only the elect are drawn by God to His Son for salvation. All others are drawn to the Son for judgment without salvation.

Never happened. However, for the sake of fellowship I will rephrase what I said. NO ONE can make view John 6:44 in a manner that contradicts John 12:32. Not me, or you, or Lucy, or Ricky, or anyone else. Doing so violates the precept of scripture speaking cohesively and never contradicting itself.

Is that better?

I have. It is wrong. It is wrong for the reasons already posted.

I agree and have never said any such thing (unless openly playing the part of the Arminian as the proverbial "devil's advocate"). I have repeatedly stated the sinner's will is irrelevant. There is no choice and even if there were it is irrelevant. God does not consider the sinner's faculties, attributes, or works. Nothing of the sinner is meritorious and God in no way is ever dependent upon anything of the creature, especially nothing sinful. I have posted these statements scores of times so it cannot truthfully be said I have ever stated God "let them make a choice." No such thing has ever happened in this forum (two decades ago when I was a synergist I said such things but it's never happened here).

And I'd like to know why my posts are being so grossly misrepresented.

Prove it.


Quote me stating "God does not do His part to draw all of Adam's posterity and then let them make a choice." If that cannot be done then quote me necessarily implying such a thing. Do it now, please.

You have no scripture to use that teaches all men, as in, all Adam’s posterity are drawn to Jesus.
Sorry

 

[Arial]

Never happened. However, for the sake of fellowship I will rephrase what I said. NO ONE can make view John 6:44 in a manner that contradicts John 12:32. Not me, or you, or Lucy, or Ricky, or anyone else. Doing so violates the precept of scripture speaking cohesively and never contradicting itself.

At the risk of "feeding the bear", no one has tried to make or has made, John 12:32 contradict John 6:44. You have given your interpretation of John 12:32 in a way so as to avoid a contradiction, but are you correct? If you are not, a topic has been introduced that really is irrelevant to the OP.

Suppose the "when I am raised up" and the "drawing" of John 12 have nothing to do with being drawn to Jesus for judgement? Suppose it refers to the universal appeal to the whole world. One Savior, one way of salvation, for the whole world, and the all is all types of people in all the earth, and not all without exception?

 

[Carbon]

At the risk of "feeding the bear", no one has tried to make or has made, John 12:32 contradict John 6:44. You have given your interpretation of John 12:32 in a way so as to avoid a contradiction, but are you correct? If you are not, a topic has been introduced that really is irrelevant to the OP.

Suppose the "when I am raised up" and the "drawing" of John 12 have nothing to do with being drawn to Jesus for judgement? Suppose it refers to the universal appeal to the whole world. One Savior, one way of salvation, for the whole world, and the all is all types of people in all the earth, and not all without exception?

And suppose (as I believe) “all the elect” of God will be drawn to Christ.

 

[grace2]

That’s why they are drawable.

God does not open our hearts.

If we are not sincerely seeking God He will not open our hearts.

We have to have willingness heats.

there is no any other way.

God does not force anyone to Him who is not willing.

 

[Josheb]

And if Judas came, as you seem to say he did from being drawn. Will he be lifted up on the last day? Will he be given eternal life?

Hmmm.... my posts were not actually read and given authentic consideration, were they?

• I said Judas was drawn to Christ by the Father.
• I said he was drawn to Christ as the son of perdition.
• I did not say he was drawn to Jesus to be raised on the last day.
• I said all are drawn to Christ, but not all are drawn to receive eternal life.
• I said the elect are drawn to Christ to be raised.
• I said most are drawn for judgment, and not eternal life.
• I provided scripture supporting each of these points.

How then can I be asked if he will be raised on the last day?

No, I do not believe he will be given eternal life. I am not the judge of anyone's eternal disposition but John 17 plainly states he was lost when the others were not. Psalm 41 says "a wicked thing is poured out upon him." Luke 22 tells us Satan entered him (in contrast to Satan asking to sift the apostles and having Jesus pray their faith would not fail - or Peter's specifically).

None of the twelve came to Jesus on their own, especially not as a consequence of their sinful faculties in their state of total depravity. They were all called. That includes Judas. They were all also chosen, but only eleven were chosen for raising on the last day. One of them was chosen as the son of perdition, chosen to fulfill that prophecy, and he was NOT asked beforehand if he wanted to be that guy.

Mark 3:13-19
And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach and have authority to cast out demons. He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder); Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has drawn him.

John 6:53-71
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Therefore, many of his disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, conscious that his disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And he was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father." As a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore. So, Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now he meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.


Jesus called them. Jesus chose them. He did so in obedience to his Father. No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them. All are drawn to the Son. Those drawn to him who believe will be raised on the last day and receive eternal life.

Earlier I mentioned the fulfillment of Isaiah 6:9. That prophecy is cited by all the gospel writers and Paul. On one occasion Jesus is reported to say,

Matthew 13:11-14
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore, I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand, you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive.'"

One of the remarkable facts about this passage is that Judas was among the twelve to whom the knowledge of the kingdom's keys had been given (not to be confused with the actual keys). Judas had been called, chosen, assigned the role of betrayal and perdition, AND given the knowledge of the kingdom's keys.

And still wickedness was visited upon him.

Therefore, not only can John 6:44 not be made to contradict John 12:32, it cannot be made to contradict the fact Judas was drawn to Jesus for something other than eternal life, and in the end he, too, despite his being the son of perdition, will once again be drawn to Christ and forced to bend his knew and confess Jesus is Lord. He will not be able to confess Jesus as his Savior, but he will, nonetheless be hauled before Christ to glorify the Father.

 

[Carbon]

I’d like to add. With John 6:44, 65
John 12:32

This drawing of all men to Christ is the elect of God which does not end.

I believe John 6:44 teaches “also” a perseverance of the saints.
Like Lydia’s heart was open so she would pay attention to what Paul was saying? So we also continue (drawing continues) to pay attention, but of course we believes. Jesus speaks the words of life. Where else can we go?

So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” John 6.

 

[Carbon]

God does not open our hearts.

If we are not sincerely seeking God He will not open our hearts.

We have to have willingness heats.

there is no any other way.

God does not force anyone to Him who is not willing.

I’m talking and reciting God’s word.

And it never teaches He forces anyone who is not willing. No one ever chose Jesus against their will.

 

[Josheb]

At the risk of "feeding the bear", no one has tried to make or has made, John 12:32 contradict John 6:44.

I did not say they had. I simply said it could not be done reasonably, rationally, truthfully, exegetically, soundly. I was premptively covering the base and precluding any future occasion where that might occur.

You have given your interpretation of John 12:32 in a way so as to avoid a contradiction, but are you correct? If you are not, a topic has been introduced that really is irrelevant to the OP.

Never happened. The text itself specifies judgment, blindness, and a lack of healing. Those are not my "interpretation, those are the stated facts of the text.

Suppose the "when I am raised up" and the "drawing" of John 12 have nothing to do with being drawn to Jesus for judgement?

That would be contrary to what is explicitly stated in John 12.

Suppose....

No, let's not "suppose," especially no in any way that ignores, nelgects, or contradicts what is plainly stated.

Suppose it refers to the universal appeal to the whole world.

That would contradict @Carbon's position only the elect are drawn. Since I believe the "appeal" is universal, all will be drawn to Christ (just not for salvation) you'll have to take up that supposition with Carbon.

One Savior, one way of salvation, for the whole world, and the all is all types of people in all the earth, and not all without exception?

Again, the John 12 text explicitly specifies judgment, unbelief, blindness, deafness, and a lack of healing. In fact, the salvation of the sinner is nowhere mentioned in the entire chapter and the only mentions of eternal life occur in verses 25 and 50.


No feeding the bear needed or desired.