Does God draw everyone?

[Carbon]

Does God draw everyone, and does He draw every one the same way?

Consider what Jesus said,
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

So, is the drawing universal? Or does God draw those He chose?

Can you prove your beliefs with scripture?

Context is key.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37.
In this context, it's obvious that all those whom the Father draws will come.

If as some think, all/everyone ever born are drawn. But if drawn, in the context of this passage, they come, then they will never be cast out.


Again, these verses (in the context) teach the same thing. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:

It's pretty clear to see, that if the Father does not draw some, it's because it's not granted.

 

[Carbon]

Context is key.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37.
In this context, it's obvious that all those whom the Father draws will come.

If as some think, all/everyone ever born are drawn. But if drawn, in the context of this passage, they come, then they will never be cast out.


Again, these verses (in the context) teach the same thing. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:

It's pretty clear to see, that if the Father does not draw some, it's because it's not granted.

And those He does draw, will come and Christ will never cast them out.

 

[Carbon]

Destruction.

So God draws the reprobate to destruction?

That's interesting and unscriptural.
It's like God cant cast the reprobate into hell, He has to draw them to it.

 

[Carbon]

Hebrews 9:27
.....it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment....

All get judged. Everyone. All are brought to that one point. All are judged. Not all are condemned.

So according to you, some are drawn to judgment? Again, unscriptural. The drawing is of the elect to Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Do you think the destruction just mentioned is limited to philosophy or epistemology?

Do you think you can find a passage that teaches God draws all of Adams's posterity? Nope, I don't think you can.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

There are only two options: rotting decay ending in destruction or eternal life. Is the former autonomous of God? Does it not occur by God's active, willful design? You recently cited Romans 11's example of the irrelevancy of the human will (and work). Does that apply to Galatians 6:7-8? If so, then you've got your scripture.

Nope, still nothing. Keep trying.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Both roads lead to Hebrews 9:27. Both roads exist by God's design.

Both roads. Okay, where is the drawing both ways?

The exact same cross that saves also condemns. This particular passage is salient because while I was studying Hebrew recently I learned that the Hebrew word for "narrow" is also used to communicate walls, and difficulty, and can carry with it the connotation of conflict and judgment. If that is true and applicable to what Jesus was teaching his originally Jewish audience, then they would have understood him to be saying the road to eternal life is filled with difficulty and the road to destruction is filled with ease. Same endpoint; two different paths with two different methods.

You are coming up empty.

John 12:31-33
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Everyone is drawn to Jesus.

Lol. Nope. Not everyone is drawn to Jesus in the way you think.

All the elect from every tribe tongue and nation are drawn. But that's it though. Your adding to scripture does not prove your synergistic thinking.

Not everyone is drawn in salvation.

The elect are. And you are correct, that's not everyone.

Without posting many more verses, we necessarily understand all the Law, prophets and psalms testify to Christ (Lk. 24:27,44). That is one way God draws people to His Son. In contrast, Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law showing the work of the Law written in their hearts, and Paul concludes that commentary with, "show the work of the Law written in their hearts." This, then is another pair of different "ways," with through the Law and another absent the Law. Both bring the person to the single point of Hebrews 9:27.

I see the effort is there but you have come up wanting.

 

[Carbon]

If you mean John 6:44 then the verse should be understood via whole scripture, including verses like Hebrews 9:27, John 3:18, and Acts 4:12.

Absolutely! And those three verses you posted do not in any way help your thinking that everyone is drawn by the Father to Jesus.

The exact same Jesus either condemns or saves. How someone gets there varies and either it happens irrelevant of God or by means God ordained from eternity. The former is, of course, untenable and posted solely to highlight the fact everything occurs one way or another by God, His design, His will, and His purpose.

Still nothing.

 

[Carbon]

In that scripture the drawing is coming to Him in saving faith, because He says He will give them eternal life. Within the entire context we find that only certain ones are drawn and those are the ones the Father is giving to Jesus.

Amen sister!

They would be the same ones we see in John 10---His sheep who hear His voice, who He knows, and they follow Him. They are the same ones in John 3 who the Spirit has regenerated. That drawing is not universal. They are the same ones we see in Romans who are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

 

[Carbon]

1 Timothy 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Indeed. But let me ask you, who is the everyone here? Context please.

2 Peter 3
9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Amen!
And when that last elect person is born into the world and God draws him or her to Christ, it's all over.

 

[Carbon]

For now because my time is limited I’ll just say, if Judas was drawn he would have been a believer.

. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6.

@Josheb
Did you notice all given to Christ will come to him? And all those who come, Christ will lose none. These will have eternal life and will be raised up on the last day, have you noticed?


Do you see it yet?
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6.

 

[Carbon]

Can that be amended to say, "If Judas was drawn to Jesus for the purpose of salvation then he would be a believer"?

You cannot make John 6:44 contradict John 12:32.

Your right, I cant. And I don't. You cannot make them mean something they do not, yet you are trying to.

 

[Josheb]

So God draws the reprobate to destruction?

That's interesting and unscriptural.

Well, let's see...

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Galatians 6:8 NIV
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

2 Peter 3:7, 14-16
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men............... Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So much for the "unscriptural" claim.

It's like God can't cast the reprobate into hell, He has to draw them to it.

It's not like that at all. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially since "helkyse" means drag or haul. Nice straw man, though.

If God has ordained all things from eternity, then the drawing, casting, leading, preparing, ending, penalty, throwing, etc. occurs by God's doing. To suggest otherwise is to implicitly assert a degree of autonomy on the side of the sinner that is wholly rejected in Reform Theology. God did not author sin, but He did author the consequences.

 

[Carbon]

Well, let's see...

Okay, let's have a look.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Scripture is written to believers. The only ones who will enter through the narrow gate are the elect. Even so, this does not teach about drawing.

Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Okay, there are vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction. It does not teach that these vessels are being drawn to destruction.

Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Again, nothing on drawing or being drawn. You would have to insert that in.

Galatians 6:8 NIV
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Again, nothing.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

About God repaying with afflictions. Nothing about drawing.

2 Peter 3:7, 14-16
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men............... Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Again nothing.
Will you just admit you cannot find what you are looking for?

So much for the "unscriptural" claim.

You made it worse.

It's not like that at all. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially since "helkyse" means drag or haul. Nice straw man, though.

Nope. Don't work. You really don't have anything.

If God has ordained all things from eternity, then the drawing, casting, leading, preparing, ending, penalty, throwing, etc. occurs by God's doing. To suggest otherwise is to implicitly assert a degree of autonomy on the side of the sinner that is wholly rejected in Reform Theology. God did not author sin, but He did author the consequences.

And the drawing in John is about drawing the elect to Jesus. Not the reprobate. You have no scripture to support it.

 

[Josheb]

So according to you, some are drawn to judgment? Again, unscriptural.

Well...

Job 14:1-3
Man, who is born of woman, Is short-lived and full of turmoil. Like a flower he comes forth and withers. He also flees like a shadow and does not remain. You also open Your eyes on him and bring him into judgment with Yourself.

Psalm 28:3-4
Do not drag me away with the wicked and with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts. Requite them according to their work and according to the evil of their practices; Requite them according to the deeds of their hands; Repay them their recompense.

Psalm 55:23
But You, O God, will bring them down to the pit of destruction; men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days. But I will trust in You.

Ecclesiastes 11:9
Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Jeremiah 12:3
But You know me, O LORD; You see me; And You examine my heart's attitude toward You. Drag them off like sheep for the slaughter And set them apart for a day of carnage!

Ezekiel 17:20
"I will spread My net over him, and he will be caught in My snare. Then I will bring him to Babylon and enter into judgment with him there regarding the unfaithful act which he has committed against Me.

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

What is not scriptural is splitting hairs to assert disparity between "draw" "drag," "haul," "bring," "take," "throw," "cast," and claim God does not do this (monergistically) with judgment and destruction.

 

[Runningman]

Indeed. But let me ask you, who is the everyone here? Context please.

Amen!
And when that last elect person is born into the world and God draws him or her to Christ, it's all over.

In this context I believe it refers to literally everyone.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does God draw everyone, and does He draw every one the same way?

Consider what Jesus said,
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

So, is the drawing universal? Or does God draw those He chose?

Can you prove your beliefs with scripture?

The drawing is universal. As many as the Father gave the Son they alone will come

Anything that is not of his labor or love or work of faith is sin.