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Do believers have visions and dreams today?
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Rockerduck
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Of course Believers have them, because I do. I've had both visions and dreams, mostly dreams now.
I am a little perplexed. Some have eliminated the gifts of the Spirit which God placed in the church. Now some have eliminated dreams and visions which scripture says would happen in the last days . We are a powerful church to put God in our theological lock box and limit the Holy One of Israel. Wow!
Not I
Rockerduck
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what's the problem and who eliminated the gifts?
I think @Wordsmith is speaking of cessationism
Dave_Regenerated
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I don't know what to make of other people's experiences. I can only talk about my own. When I was born again I experienced God as light (1 John) and had some kind of vision of the crucifixion. It looked like it was dawn or dusk and was quite blurry to my recollection, Jesus' face was blurred out. I am confident it's all Biblical and not extra revelation. I am not special. God dealt with me in a fantastic way because of my schizophrenia wherein I thought I was God. He had to bring me back down to earth in my egotism and used a dramatic means to do so. I don't boast about it, I don't even like mentioning it. I have had no dreams of God. I had the vision with my eyes still open the entire time. I wasn't in a trance, my mind was functioning normally.
As to other people's experiences, none of us are in a position to evaluate them directly and make conclusions unless such visions are extra Biblical revelation, contain heretical elements or there's something suspicious about them or the fruits of them.
As to other people's experiences, none of us are in a position to evaluate them directly and make conclusions unless such visions are extra Biblical revelation, contain heretical elements or there's something suspicious about them or the fruits of them.
Many on this forum on other threads. Quiet common.
Rockerduck
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I know several people that have visions and dreams. The ones that don't get them are the ones that don't believe people get them.
I'm not sure we can make blanket statements like that. Like the blanket statement that people don't get healed due to sin or lack of faith. Sometimes that's why, but certainly not the only reasons. Sometimes it's just God's will like with Paul's thorn in the flesh. The Holy Spirit distributes different gifts to the Body. Different people have different gifts. I suspect most of the Muslims who've come to Christ from visions/dreams weren't expecting them.
2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Paul was not sick!
Paul is referring to persecutions, and afflictions done *to* him. And the Lord delivered Paul in the sense that his life was saved and he didn't die/wasn't killed as a result of these persecutions. Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was something different. We don't know what specifically it was and it does no good to speculate, but most scholars agree it was some type of physical problem or ailment; at least that much seems clear. And Paul clearly says God did not remove the thorn in the flesh, but it remained.
Lack of faith or sin is sometimes the reason for not being healed but clearly not always. Sometimes it's just not the will of God to heal; like with Paul's thorn in the flesh when it was more important to keep Paul's pride in check.
One thing's for certain though: if one believer prays for healing for another believer to be healed and the person isn't, the pray-er should never accuse the pray-ee of lack of faith, because it could just as easily be the pray-er's lack of faith (!) ... or not God's will to begin with.
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I do not speculate on this, I use the words of Paul himself !
2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such a one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
Infirmities in context include "reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake. Paul failed to specify sickness. We are not sick for Christs sake that is false teaching in many church circles. If that were true Jesus spent a lot time undoing the will of God while He walked the earth.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
One of the problems here Is the "phrase thorn in the flesh" it is nothing more than a saying like we might say so and so is a thorn in my side. Not a literal thorn from a bush in our literal side.
This was a messenger from satan not the flu.
Here is an example from scripture of this kind of language.
Numbers 33:55
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
The phrase was just a saying not a literal statement. Lets compare scripture to scripture and not use private interpretation.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Three points 1. The Lord did not say no, so called scholars inserted that. 2. Infirmities does not always mean sickness, so called scholars have assumed that. 3. The power of Christ rested upon Paul and I believe the previous scripture I posted says out of them ALL Paul was delivered. 2 Timothy 3:11
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Only infirmities can even be stretched to mean sickness, but that is absolutely not clear from scripture in fact it is the opposite as we shall see.
2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
All things that affected Pauls physical being, no sickness listed.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
More things that affected Pauls physical well being, but not sickness listed.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
Paul is not glorying in sickness , all of these things he suffered for Christs sake and not one of them was sickness.
My response is not a healing disertation but one to correct what I believe to be error taught in many churches which causes wrong thinking about Gods willingness to heal His children.
You are right we should pray for healing and sometimes we are healed and sometimes we are not and I do not have claim to have all of the answers as to why, nor would I ever berate or belittle one saying they didn't have faith because that is not for me to judge. Also what I would never do is tell someone that didn't get healed to not fill to bad Paul didn't get healed either because that is false doctrine and accomplishes nothing good for the body of Christ.
Paul clearly told us what his infirmities were and sickness was not listed among them.
FYI I am not buying the Paul had poor eyesight as his thorn.
I never said you were speculating
"Weaknesses" is a better translation than KJV "infirmities," and weaknesses can be anything, including sickness.
Like I said, it is not clear what the thorn in the flesh was.
No one said it was a literal thorn
Three times Paul pleaded it be taken away, "But..." means God didn't
Infirmities is the wrong word. "Weaknesses"
But that "all" did not include this "thorn in the flesh" whatever it was
Again, no one know what it was. Some type of physical problem or ailment or malady is suggested, but no one really knows. What we do know is that it was some type of weakness; probably some type of physical weakness
God does not physically heal everyone and even when God does heal it is not total complete but only temporary
No one said anything about poor eyesight. Again, no one knows what it was, but some type of physical weakness is suggested.
QVQ
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I am extremely wary of self deception and vain imaginings.
I have dreams or visions, such as I had a dream of speaking with my brother after he died and I once heard the "voice of God" speak my name
BUT...with that dream, it was very comforting. I needed that assurancee. And how wonderful I am that God would personally speak to me but it is myself, my own imagination because it is not in the Bible. It was something I needed as with "God calling" it recalled me to God but it was myself to myself.
Hard to explain...but there is so much room for self deception and vainglory in those occurances.
I just put it down as self to self, a comfort but not anything supernatural.
The only voice of God I take seriously is the Word written in the Bible.
I have dreams or visions, such as I had a dream of speaking with my brother after he died and I once heard the "voice of God" speak my name
BUT...with that dream, it was very comforting. I needed that assurancee. And how wonderful I am that God would personally speak to me but it is myself, my own imagination because it is not in the Bible. It was something I needed as with "God calling" it recalled me to God but it was myself to myself.
Hard to explain...but there is so much room for self deception and vainglory in those occurances.
I just put it down as self to self, a comfort but not anything supernatural.
The only voice of God I take seriously is the Word written in the Bible.
True, we always must be on guard from self-deception, but self-deception can happen (and does) with private interpretations of Scripture, too. Yes, we must be careful of self-deception all the way around. And like you say we must listen to Scripture. But Scripture also teaches "in the last days..."
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
So we must be discerning but also not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
QVQ
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The dream was for me. It was my brother after he died who came to me to say that he loved me but he had to leave. I needed that.
With God speaking my name, it was a time when I was seriously off course, about to fall into some bad spiritual trouble and that "voice" recalled me to God. I paused, considered and changed my wicked ways.
It was myself perhaps, imagining, but both of those were intensely personal and meant only for me, not of much use to anyone else.
So, it is self to self, not the type of truth and guidance I find in the Bible.
I don't give much credence to dreams, visions and prophecies as I believe my own were only for myself, with meaning and value only to myself.
So self to self, and I don't believe I am so wonderful that God speaks to me except through His Scripture.
It may have been the voice of my conscience, after all.
I'm not making value judgments about your own experience. I'm not in a position to do so. I'm simply noting what Scripture says on the matter that in the last days
"God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy."
So, while the dream you experience may not have been from God (and we have no reason to doubt you) that doesn't negate that God can still speak to us in this way. (And those who God speaks to this way are no better or more "wonderful" than any of the rest of us)
QVQ
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The dreams and visions are from God and I thank God for all of it.
However, I mean that in the sense that everything is from God, all of it. But the spiritual gifts we receive are not for our glory but for His.
Hearing the Voice of God does not make me the Voice of God Nor can I claim it actually, without a doubt, was the voice of God because there is a possibility of self deception and also devil deception.
Both of my experiences, I had to validate in the Scripture, that the dream was valid as my brother was a Christian who was a believer in Jesus and eternal life. The voice was a factor in a change for the good and a deepening understanding of God's grace.
It wasn't ordering me to preach some strange gospel or do some bizarre violence in the name of god, which is something we do read about.
A
ammi
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I don't really have dreams from God, at least not that I can recall at this moment, but I do believe in visions because over the years, the Lord has given me many. They come in many forms, from mental images in my mind, to a few times where it seemed as though I was transported somewhere else.
It seems to me that where God may speak something to some, He shows me. There have, however, been a few times when I heard His voice very much like a spoken voice, but a bit different. He has combined the 2 a few times. I think it's been over 2 years since I've had a vision.
A few times they have interacted with this physical world. I've considered that because of other things He was doing at the same time that the physical stuff happened, I would know that in the years to come that the other things were real experiences. Otherwise with time I may have been tempted to tell myself that I may have imagined the experiences.
I had an "out of body" vision once while sitting at a friend's kitchen table and flipping through a bible for the first time in over ten years. I think it was about the following verse.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones" - Jude v.14
It seems to me that where God may speak something to some, He shows me. There have, however, been a few times when I heard His voice very much like a spoken voice, but a bit different. He has combined the 2 a few times. I think it's been over 2 years since I've had a vision.
A few times they have interacted with this physical world. I've considered that because of other things He was doing at the same time that the physical stuff happened, I would know that in the years to come that the other things were real experiences. Otherwise with time I may have been tempted to tell myself that I may have imagined the experiences.
I had an "out of body" vision once while sitting at a friend's kitchen table and flipping through a bible for the first time in over ten years. I think it was about the following verse.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones" - Jude v.14
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