Did Jesus teach TULIP?

[Carbon]

Did Jesus teach these 5 points?



The following are the five points of Calvinism listed, explained, and supported with scripture.

1. Total Depravity– Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
   1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
2. Unconditional Election – God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God’s election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
   1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God’s sovereign choice according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).
3. Limited Atonement – Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
   1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
4. Irresistible Grace– The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God’s movement and he will be regenerated
   1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God’s desire, not man’s ability (Romans 9:18).
5. Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
   1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19)

 

[donadams]

Total depravity? How did Mary find favor with God?

Thks

 

[ReverendRV]

Total depravity? How did Mary find favor with God?

Thks

By Grace through Faith...

The Church of Rome believes in Prevenient Grace as a Ways and Means. So why ask the question?

 

[donadams]

By Grace through Faith...

The Church of Rome believes in Prevenient Grace as a Ways and Means. So why ask the question?

But do you believe it as the church founded by Christ believes and teaches

 

[ReverendRV]

But do you believe it as the church founded by Christ believes and teaches

I do; and you agree...

We're Saved by Grace through Faith apart from Works...

 

[CrowCross]

Total depravity? How did Mary find favor with God?

Thks

Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Could this apply to Mary?

That's the how. As to "why"...I suppose only God knows.

 

[Runningman]

Did Jesus teach these 5 points?



The following are the five points of Calvinism listed, explained, and supported with scripture.

1. Total Depravity– Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
   1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

No.

Matthew 7
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Luke 6
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

• Unconditional Election– God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God’s election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
  1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God’s sovereign choice according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).

No.

John 12
32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Acts 1
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

• Limited Atonement– Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
  1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”

No.

John 3
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

• Irresistible Grace– The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God’s movement and he will be regenerated
  1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God’s desire, not man’s ability (Romans 9:18).

No.

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
Acts 1
25to take up this ministry and apostleship, which Judas abandoned to go to his rightful place.”

• Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
  1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19)

See above. Judas was among those 12 promised eternal life and then later abandoned and betrayed Jesus. He went to his "rightful place." I am pretty sure that wasn't heaven.

 

[Arial]

See above. Judas was among those 12 promised eternal life and then later abandoned and betrayed Jesus. He went to his "rightful place." I am pretty sure that wasn't heaven.

None of the scriptures you give to refute any point of TULIP, do so. They are just isolated scriptures pulled out of ALL context, and frankly, in most of them I do not even see any connection to the doctrine being refuted. And show we where Judas was promised eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

None of the scriptures you give to refute any point of TULIP, do so. They are just isolated scriptures pulled out of ALL context, and frankly, in most of them I do not even see any connection to the doctrine being refuted. And show we where Judas was promised eternal life.

They debunk TULIP. You being Reformed are going to deny anything to the contrary any way.

 

[Carbon]

By Grace through Faith...

The Church of Rome believes in Prevenient Grace as a Ways and Means. So why ask the question?

I must be reading you wrong because it seems you're saying God found favor with Mary because of prevenient grace?

 

[Carbon]

But do you believe it as the church founded by Christ believes and teaches

The church founded by Christ does not teach prevenient grace.

 

[CrowCross]

See above. Judas was among those 12 promised eternal life and then later abandoned and betrayed Jesus. He went to his "rightful place." I am pretty sure that wasn't heaven.

Do you have a chapter and verse that you anti-trintiters use to support this?

 

[ReverendRV]

I must be reading you wrong because it seems you're saying God found favor with Mary because of prevenient grace?

Nah, I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. But I always use a person's beliefs, like Prevenient Grace, against them...

If you vote Republican, you can use a Democrat's beliefs against them. It doesn't mean you're a Democrat...

 

[Arial]

They debunk TULIP. You being Reformed are going to deny anything to the contrary any way.

Well, explain how they debunk TULIP. Don't just say they do.

And where does it say Judas was promised eternal life? If you think about it for a second, if Jesus promised Judas eternal life and then didn't give it to him, Jesus lied.

 

[Runningman]

Do you have a chapter and verse that you anti-trintiters use to support this?

Did you see above? I quoted it from Matthew 19. Jesus was speaking to his 12 disciples, Judas included of course, and point blank told him to his face he's getting eternal life and 1 of the 12 thrones. Judas lost his salvation and Calvinism is fake news.

Matthew 19
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27“Look,” Peter replied, “we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?”

28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

Well, explain how they debunk TULIP. Don't just say they do.

And where does it say Judas was promised eternal life? If you think about it for a second, if Jesus promised Judas eternal life and then didn't give it to him, Jesus lied.

Let's begin with Total Depravity then. @Carbon said "Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is" which is false according to Jesus' teachings. I already quoted the verses above. So what is your answer for Jesus saying sinners love with the kind of love he commanded his followers to love their neighbor with?

 

[Arial]

28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

Judas didn't follow Him. Judas betrayed Him. Jesus chose him or THAT purpose. (John 6) And another took his place.

 

[Carbon]

Well, explain how they debunk TULIP. Don't just say they do.

It's just wishful thinking.

And where does it say Judas was promised eternal life? If you think about it for a second, if Jesus promised Judas eternal life and then didn't give it to him, Jesus lied.

It dosent.

 

[Carbon]

No.

Matthew 7
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Luke 6
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

No.

John 12
32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Acts 1
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

No.

John 3
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

No.

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
Acts 1
25to take up this ministry and apostleship, which Judas abandoned to go to his rightful place.”


See above. Judas was among those 12 promised eternal life and then later abandoned and betrayed Jesus. He went to his "rightful place." I am pretty sure that wasn't heaven.

Why are you ignoring all those scriptures?

 

[Runningman]

Judas didn't follow Him. Judas betrayed Him. Jesus chose him or THAT purpose. (John 6) And another took his place.

That's rich. Have you read Matthew 10 before? It says Judas is an apostle. He was a follower of Jesus and and even given power to cast out demons, raise the dead, and perform healings. He lost his eternal life, too. One can't betray God's Son and go heaven.

Matthew 10
2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.

5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go onto the road of the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.