Did Jesus teach TULIP?

[CrowCross]

That's rich. Have you read Matthew 10 before? It says Judas is an apostle. He was a follower of Jesus and and even given power to cast out demons, raise the dead, and perform healings. He lost his eternal life, too. One can't betray God's Son and go heaven.

That doesn't mean you're saved....Check out the Lord, Lord have we not....in your name verse.

 

[Arial]

Let's begin with Total Depravity then. @Carbon said "Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is" which is false according to Jesus' teachings. I already quoted the verses above. So what is your answer for Jesus saying sinners love with the kind of love he commanded his followers to love their neighbor with?

Matthew 7
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Luke 6
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

To start with Jesus calls them evil in Matt 7. Second, the passage is not discussing anything that is in the doctrine of total depravity, so can't be used to either support or refute it.

Total depravity does not teach that man cannot do anything good, so you are working off a false assumption from not knowing the doctrine. Total depravity signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature, that is total in principle, but not in degree---no one is as bad as they might be. No part of us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be. Therefore, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God's eyes.We cannot earn His favor, no matter what we do. We are lost unless grace saves us.

Nether is Luke 6:32 talking about the doctrine of total depravity and so cannot be used to either support or refute it. Total depravity does not teach that sinners do not love, and Jesus is teaching here in Luke that we are to love our enemies. Do sinners do that? They scoff at it. Even the regenerate have a problem with it---mainly because of our misconception on loving our enemies means. But that is another subject. Not this one.

 

[Arial]

That's rich. Have you read Matthew 10 before? It says Judas is an apostle. He was a follower of Jesus and and even given power to cast out demons, raise the dead, and perform healings.

Judas was not one of the Apostles appointed to lay the foundation of the church. In that passage it simply means he was one of the 12 Jesus called to be closest to Him, each having their own purpose. Being able to perform miracles does not purchase eternal life.

He lost his eternal life, too.

Think about it. If something is eternal, how can it be lost?

 

[Arial]

@Runningman We did the T. How about the U.

 

[Carbon]

That doesn't mean you're saved....Check out the Lord, Lord have we not....in your name verse.

True. The cold hard facts.

 

[Carbon]

To start with Jesus calls them evil in Matt 7. Second, the passage is not discussing anything that is in the doctrine of total depravity, so can't be used to either support or refute it.

Total depravity does not teach that man cannot do anything good, so you are working off a false assumption from not knowing the doctrine. Total depravity signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature, that is total in principle, but not in degree---no one is as bad as they might be. No part of us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be. Therefore, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God's eyes.We cannot earn His favor, no matter what we do. We are lost unless grace saves us.

Nether is Luke 6:32 talking about the doctrine of total depravity and so cannot be used to either support or refute it. Total depravity does not teach that sinners do not love, and Jesus is teaching here in Luke that we are to love our enemies. Do sinners do that? They scoff at it. Even the regenerate have a problem with it---mainly because of our misconception on loving our enemies means. But that is another subject. Not this one.

Amen, sister! Soldier on!

 

[Carbon]

Judas was not one of the Apostles appointed to lay the foundation of the church. In that passage it simply means he was one of the 12 Jesus called to be closest to Him, each having their own purpose. Being able to perform miracles does not purchase eternal life.

Think about it. If something is eternal, how can it be lost?

Spot on

 

[Carbon]

Did Jesus teach these 5 points?



The following are the five points of Calvinism listed, explained, and supported with scripture.

1. Total Depravity– Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
   1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
2. Unconditional Election– God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God’s election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
   1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God’s sovereign choice according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).
3. Limited Atonement– Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
   1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
4. Irresistible Grace– The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God’s movement and he will be regenerated
   1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God’s desire, not man’s ability (Romans 9:18).
5. Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
   1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19)

Yes, I believe Jesus did teach these 5 points.


Scripture teaches of a God who saves.

Man teaches of a God who enables man to save himself.

Scripture presents the three great acts of the Holy Trinity for recovering of lost mankind. - Election by the Father, redemption by the Son, calling by the Spirit. - as directed towards the same persons, and as securing their salvation infallibly.

Man's view gives each act a different reference (the objects of redemption being all mankind, of calling, those who hear the gospel, and of election, those hearers who respond), and denies that any man's salvation is secured by any of them.

As it is easy to see, these two theologies thus conceive the plan of salvation in quite different terms.
One makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other on the work of man; one regards faith as a part of God's gift of salvation, the other as man's own contribution to salvation; one gives all the glory saving believers to God, the other divides the praise between God, Who, so to speak, built the machinery of salvation, and man who by believing operated it.

EDIT} The credit for this goes to, J I Packer.

 

[Carbon]

Limited Atonement– Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.

1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”

An Arminian would say: I owe my election to my faith.
The Calvinist says: I owe my faith to my election.

The Arminian will say: I could not have gained my salvation without Calvary.
The Calvinist will say: Christ gained my salvation for me at Calvary.

The former makes the cross the sine qua non of salvation, the latter sees it as the actual procuring cause of salvation and traces the source of every spiritual blessing, faith included, back to the great transaction between God and His Son carried through on Calvary's hill.

 

[Carbon]

I agree with Packer when he said: Calvinism is one of the "odious names" by which down the centuries prejudice has been raised against it. But the thing itself is just the biblical gospel.

 

[Runningman]

That doesn't mean you're saved....Check out the Lord, Lord have we not....in your name verse.

Judas was a believer. See Matthew 10:2-8 and Mark 16:17 "And these signs will accompany those who believe..."

 

[Runningman]

To start with Jesus calls them evil in Matt 7. Second, the passage is not discussing anything that is in the doctrine of total depravity, so can't be used to either support or refute it.

Yes they are called evil, but look, they are not Totally Depraved. Mathew 7:11 "So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts..." It means they have something good about them.

Who else is called good in the New Testament? Jesus the good shepherd John 10:11, good/faithful servants Matthew 25:23, evil people doing good unto others as they would have others do unto themselves Matthew 7:11.

Luke 6:32-34 has sinners loving others, doing good to others, etc. For doing good is well-pleasing to God as Hebrews 13:16 say "Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God."

So the check list in the OP doesn't account for this because these verses I've provided are exceptions to total depravity, meaning that the T in TULIP isn't accurate.

 

[Runningman]

Judas was not one of the Apostles appointed to lay the foundation of the church. In that passage it simply means he was one of the 12 Jesus called to be closest to Him, each having their own purpose. Being able to perform miracles does not purchase eternal life.

But being able to do miracles means that Judas was a believer according to Mark 16:17.

Jesus, speaking to the twelve, told them there are 12 thrones for them and they will inherit eternal life. That includes Judas. So Judas lost his eternal life. This also knocks out the I and P in TULIP. Judas, a believer certified with miracles, abandoned the faith, abandoned Jesus, and he lost his salvation. Jesus said of Judas, " It would be better for him if he had not been born.” in Matt 26:24.

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

 

[CrowCross]

Judas was a believer. See Matthew 10:2-8 and Mark 16:17 "And these signs will accompany those who believe..."

If you say so.

 

[Arial]

But being able to do miracles means that Judas was a believer according to Mark 16:17.

You create contradictions in the Bible right and left, pick the one that best suits you in the moment, and make no attempt to resolve them. You leave them as contradictions and yet say there are none with God and His word.
Rev 13:11-15




11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence,c and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence ofd the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

2 Thes 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had a pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils and in your name done many wonderful works? And I will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me you workers of iniquity.

 

[Arial]

Jesus, speaking to the twelve, told them there are 12 thrones for them and they will inherit eternal life. That includes Judas. So Judas lost his eternal life. This also knocks out the I and P in TULIP. Judas, a believer certified with miracles, abandoned the faith, abandoned Jesus, and he lost his salvation. Jesus said of Judas, " It would be better for him if he had not been born.” in Matt 26:24.

It obviously did not include Judas.

 

[Arial]

Yes they are called evil, but look, they are not Totally Depraved. Mathew 7:11 "So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts..." It means they have something good about them.

You are still operating off a wrong understanding of what is meant by the total depravity doctrine. Even though I cleared that up with clear language. Therefore, your rebuttal rebuts nothing. It is the result of refusing to acknowledge what anyone says and continue with your straw man. I don't know why you think that fools anyone.

 

[David1701]

Judas was a believer. See Matthew 10:2-8 and Mark 16:17 "And these signs will accompany those who believe..."

You can hang gifts on a dead tree; but, only a living tree bears fruit.

Matt. 7:18-23 (WEB)
18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’
23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

John 12:4-6 (WEB)
4 Then Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, one of his disciples, who would betray him, said,
5 “Why wasn’t this ointment sold for three hundred denarii, and given to the poor?”
6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the money box, used to steal what was put into it.

 

[David1701]

Yes they are called evil, but look, they are not Totally Depraved. Mathew 7:11 "So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts..." It means they have something good about them.

Who else is called good in the New Testament? Jesus the good shepherd John 10:11, good/faithful servants Matthew 25:23, evil people doing good unto others as they would have others do unto themselves Matthew 7:11.

Luke 6:32-34 has sinners loving others, doing good to others, etc. For doing good is well-pleasing to God as Hebrews 13:16 say "Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God."

So the check list in the OP doesn't account for this because these verses I've provided are exceptions to total depravity, meaning that the T in TULIP isn't accurate.

1) Total Depravity means that every aspect of man is corrupt, not that everyone is as corrupt as he could be.

2) Being able to give a good gift does not mean that there is something good in the giver (e.g. you could give a good gift for evil motives). God looks at the heart of a sinner, not the outward appearance (Jer. 17:9,10).

3) Sinners loving those who love them might be good in men's eyes; but, sinners (i.e. the unregenerate) cannot do anything that pleases God (Rom. 8:7,8).

4) Sinners are corrupt in every area of life (although not as corrupt as they could be, due to God's restraining grace) (Rom. 3:9-20).

 

[donadams]

I do; and you agree...

We're Saved by Grace through Faith apart from Works...

Were you saved over 2000 yrs ago?