Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[CrowCross]

I understand it perfectly.

Then you understand that Jesus who was equal to and of the image of God....let go and emptied Himself...and became a man, a servant to God the Father?

You see, I don't think you really do understand the kenosis. If you did you would understand from the position of the kenosis and servanthood the man Jesus could say the Father is the only true God.

 

[Eleanor]

Your last sentence calls Jesus a liar-

Only when he calls himself a liar in Mt 28:19.

-He teaches-The one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD,

Precisely. . .there is only one God, in three distinct divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19), as Biblically demonstrated in post #318, above.

 

[Keiw1]

A person refuses to believe in Jesus because the the Father hasn't granted them the ability to believe. John 6:65

Do you have another reason as to why you don't believe in Jesus as the sacrificial substitutionary atonement for sin?

Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out.( Acts 3:19)--so you are twisting why Jesus died.

 

[Keiw1]

Since God is the Messiah as God is the Saviour, you should consider why scriptures also gives those titles of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Saviour for He is God.

If Jesus is not God, then how can He be in you along with the Father & the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him..... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus always was God. Jesus had existed as the Word of God by how all things were made before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

God isnt the Messiah-Where do you get that? Its not in the bible.
If the trinity religions had the holy spirit, they wouldn't be such a mass of confusion and be in 100% agreement on all of Gods 1 truth-1Cor 1:10) and they wouldn't be divided. A lack of holy spirit leads those religions. 1Cor 1:10= a true mark of the 1 religion that Jesus leads into ALL truth via holy spirit.

 

[Keiw1]

Then you understand that Jesus who was equal to and of the image of God....let go and emptied Himself...and became a man, a servant to God the Father?

You see, I don't think you really do understand the kenosis. If you did you would understand from the position of the kenosis and servanthood the man Jesus could say the Father is the only true God.

Again try to believe Jesus-The Father is greater than i.= no equality.

 

[Keiw1]

Only when he calls himself a liar in Mt 28:19.

Precisely. . .there is only one God, in three distinct divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19), as Biblically demonstrated in post #318, above.

The Father alone is God=YHWH(Jehovah)-he is Jesus' God, just like our God. Its sad, few know him and will miss out on eternal life.

 

[CrowCross]

Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out.( Acts 3:19)--so you are twisting why Jesus died.

Your response make no sense....

 

[CrowCross]

Again try to believe Jesus-The Father is greater than i.= no equality.

Once again....you fail to understand the KENOSIS

 

[ChristB4us]

God isnt the Messiah-Where do you get that? Its not in the bible.

Is God the Saviour or not?

Isaiah 43:3For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.....11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 4:42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Not much of a leap there in assigning deity to the title "Messiah".

As for how Isaiah 43:3 remain true is that Jesus & the Father are One as God as the Person of the Holy Spirit is also being of the Triune God.

 

[ChristB4us]

If the trinity religions had the holy spirit, they wouldn't be such a mass of confusion and be in 100% agreement on all of Gods 1 truth-1Cor 1:10) and they wouldn't be divided. A lack of holy spirit leads those religions. 1Cor 1:10= a true mark of the 1 religion that Jesus leads into ALL truth via holy spirit.

Those that believe in the Trinity but have gotten led astray by the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. by taking their eyes off of the Son to the Trinity or to the Holy Spirit as if that is another way to honor God by, still have the Holy Ghost in them but are in iniquity because of John 5:22-23 & John 10:1 & John 14:6 along with the warning in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24 for why saved believers will be left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Your religion denies the deity of Christ and by His words, the JWs are still in their sins.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Only God can be the Saviour and scriptures testifies that Jesus Christ is the Saviour. When God says there is none beside Him as Saviour, then that was Jesus speaking before His incarnation.

When God the Father has exalted Jesus by His right hand, is the Father declaring Jesus as God. And although the Holy Spirit is Another Witness of the One God, it is the Father's will for all who come to Him is by the only way of the Son in all things because of the spirits of the antichrist in the world.

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force of God because He can be grieved.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit in every saved believer makes silent intercessions in each of us, even those that have gone astray, as Jesus that searches our hearts, Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit, as it is Jesus that gives the Spirit's unuttered intercessions to the Father.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

This is why the Holy Spirit is a separate Person, Another Witness, in the Godhead and this was originally scripture after all in 1 John 5:7 because by taking it out, 1 John 5:9 falls flat in showing how the witness of God is greater than the witnesses of men.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

This site explains that there are Greek documents and explains why there are not that many, but shows extra biblical sources dating far back as 200 A.D. where 1 John 5:7 regarding the 3 Witnesses in Heaven is originally scripture if you scroll half way down the web site page.

Ask the Father in Jesus's name, to reveal the deity of His Son for why He is given the credit & glory as Saviour when God is Saviour?

 

[Eleanor]

The Father alone is God=YHWH(Jehovah)-he is Jesus' God, just like our God. Its sad, few know him and will miss out on eternal life.

You don't know your NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) which disagrees with you.

The NT identifies Jesus as the YHWH of the OT in

Mt 3:3, Lk 1:67-68, 76 (Isa 40:3) - Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 (Rev 1:8) - the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 (Rev 20:11-13) -Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

The Elohim and YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10).

 

[Keiw1]

Once again....you fail to understand the KENOSIS

No its you who refuse to believe Jesus over the twisted words of blind guides.

 

[Keiw1]

Is God the Saviour or not?

Isaiah 43:3For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.....11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 4:42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Not much of a leap there in assigning deity to the title "Messiah".

As for how Isaiah 43:3 remain true is that Jesus & the Father are One as God as the Person of the Holy Spirit is also being of the Triune God.

In the OT speaks about YHWH as being savior, because he is. Jesus does YHWH's will, his ransom sacrifice makes Jesus a savior as well. Because without that sacrifice no one has a chance.

 

[Keiw1]

Those that believe in the Trinity but have gotten led astray by the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. by taking their eyes off of the Son to the Trinity or to the Holy Spirit as if that is another way to honor God by, still have the Holy Ghost in them but are in iniquity because of John 5:22-23 & John 10:1 & John 14:6 along with the warning in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24 for why saved believers will be left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Your religion denies the deity of Christ and by His words, the JWs are still in their sins.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Only God can be the Saviour and scriptures testifies that Jesus Christ is the Saviour. When God says there is none beside Him as Saviour, then that was Jesus speaking before His incarnation.

When God the Father has exalted Jesus by His right hand, is the Father declaring Jesus as God. And although the Holy Spirit is Another Witness of the One God, it is the Father's will for all who come to Him is by the only way of the Son in all things because of the spirits of the antichrist in the world.

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force of God because He can be grieved.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit in every saved believer makes silent intercessions in each of us, even those that have gone astray, as Jesus that searches our hearts, Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit, as it is Jesus that gives the Spirit's unuttered intercessions to the Father.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

This is why the Holy Spirit is a separate Person, Another Witness, in the Godhead and this was originally scripture after all in 1 John 5:7 because by taking it out, 1 John 5:9 falls flat in showing how the witness of God is greater than the witnesses of men.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

This site explains that there are Greek documents and explains why there are not that many, but shows extra biblical sources dating far back as 200 A.D. where 1 John 5:7 regarding the 3 Witnesses in Heaven is originally scripture if you scroll half way down the web site page.

Ask the Father in Jesus's name, to reveal the deity of His Son for why He is given the credit & glory as Saviour when God is Saviour?

Jesus denys his diety-John 20:17--And he said-The Father is greater than i.

 

[Keiw1]

You don't know your NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) which disagrees with you.

The NT identifies Jesus as the YHWH of the OT in

Mt 3:3, Lk 1:67-68, 76 (Isa 40:3) - Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 (Rev 1:8) - the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 (Rev 20:11-13) -Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

The Elohim and YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10).

Joel 2:21-- Those who call on YHWH(Jehovah) will be saved-Yes quoted 2 x in the NT Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:9--Both spots in NT should have YHWH there not Lord. LORD put in trinity translations at all 3 spots to mislead ones thinking it is Jesus but its not-Its his God and Father spoken of at all 3 spots.
Actually YHWH created all things-He is the only one with the power and wisdom to do so-He created the being he sent, named Jesus as a mortal-direct=first and last= only begotten son. Col 1:15-16--The FIRSTBORN of all creation-all creation occurred at the beginning. God created all the other things-THROUGH the being he sent to earth. If something is created-through one, that means another did it. Jesus explains all that at Prov 8-- Jesus is the only one who was beside God as his master worker during creation process-He gives God all credit for the creation at Prov 8.

 

[ChristB4us]

In the OT speaks about YHWH as being savior, because he is. Jesus does YHWH's will, his ransom sacrifice makes Jesus a savior as well. Because without that sacrifice no one has a chance.

Isaiah 43:3For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.....11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

How do you apply these scripture?

The only way Jesus can be the Saviour since God will not share His glory with another is that Jesus is God.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus denys his diety-John 20:17--And he said-The Father is greater than i.

Only Because God is the Father for that reason as His will be done but that does not deny His own deity as God the Son.

That is one of the things about the Trinity doctrine in that they say each are equal in the Godhead as God but it is the will of the Father that is to be done for why "They" are the One God as 3 Witnesses within the One God.

So tell me how you are saved in Jehovah's Witnesses that is different from all other Christian churches?

Is it by the amount of published JW's works given away or sold that you obtain salvation by those good works or what?

 

[Keiw1]

Isaiah 43:3For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.....11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

How do you apply these scripture?

The only way Jesus can be the Saviour since God will not share His glory with another is that Jesus is God.

God GAVE Jesus all authority.
There was no other savior until Jesus completed dying a sinless existence. Both spots in Isaiah-YHWH(Jehovah) belongs-not LORD. LORD is only in altered translations.

 

[Keiw1]

Only Because God is the Father for that reason as His will be done but that does not deny His own deity as God the Son.

That is one of the things about the Trinity doctrine in that they say each are equal in the Godhead as God but it is the will of the Father that is to be done for why "They" are the One God as 3 Witnesses within the One God.

So tell me how you are saved in Jehovah's Witnesses that is different from all other Christian churches?

Is it by the amount of published JW's works given away or sold that you obtain salvation by those good works or what?

Salvation for those who-OBEY. Hebrews 5:9)--And Jesus assures-Matt 7:21-Only those living now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( be saved). Jesus summed that will up in a single teaching-Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God)=OT-NT carefully studied and applied-it never stops. He as well taught--Few will find the road that leads off into life( get grace, salvation, be saved)

 

[ChristB4us]

God GAVE Jesus all authority.
There was no other savior until Jesus completed dying a sinless existence. Both spots in Isaiah-YHWH(Jehovah) belongs-not LORD. LORD is only in altered translations.

Exodus 6:3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus is the God Jehovah that appeared unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in their days. May God the Father reveal that truth to you soon.