Kirk Cameron Rejects Eternal Conscious Torment, Embraces Conditional Immortality

[John Bauer]

Post #9 (the premise there are two completely different and entirely separate creations) deserves it's own [thread]. The assertion and defense of that position is hijacking this [thread]. The premise there is an eternal creation is oxymoronic because if something is created then it is not eternal. It might be everlasting but it's not eternal. However, this thread is not the place to discuss it. Until that digression is addressed and decided, everyone is talking past one another because we're not talking about the same creation.

That thread is now created (here).

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, it is. No one comes back from that. It is forever.

I will agree, however, that annihilation is not “eternal punishing.”



The topic is annihilation, which pertains to the final state; this parable in Luke refers to the intermediate state. Moreover, the wicked are annihilated in gehenna; this parable in Luke refers to hades.

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

 

[Josheb]

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

The lost still abide forever

 

[Josheb]

The lost still abide forever

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

is that all of creation then being reduced to just the earth?

 

[Josheb]

Does sin still exist in the new heavens and earth?

The lost still abide forever

Are they present in the new heavens and earth?

is that all of creation then being reduced to just the earth?

No.

Why in all of the heavens and the earth would the new heavens and earth be reduced to just the earth? Does sin still exist in the new heavens and the earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost still present in the new heavens and the earth?

Revelation 21:1-5
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” 5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

• After Satan, death, hell, and all the sinners are thrown into the fiery lake, the first heaven and earth pass away.
• A new heaven and earth appear.
• God dwells among humans and there is no more death and no more mourning, crying, or pain.
• ALL things are made new.

Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?

 

[JesusFan]

No.

Why in all of the heavens and the earth would the new heavens and earth be reduced to just the earth? Does sin still exist in the new heavens and the earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost still present in the new heavens and the earth?

Revelation 21:1-5
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” 5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

• After Satan, death, hell, and all the sinners are thrown into the fiery lake, the first heaven and earth pass away.
• A new heaven and earth appear.
• God dwells among humans and there is no more death and no more mourning, crying, or pain.
• ALL things are made new.

Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?

We can understand in the fullness of the mind then of Christ, and see that they are experiencing what was required by God to do in order to stay Holy and Right Judge

 

[Josheb]

We can understand in the fullness of the mind then of Christ, and see that they are experiencing what was required by God to do in order to stay Holy and Right Judge

The lost are neither holy nor right, and neither are the obedient to what is required of them by God. In terms of their eternal disposition this op (and I) believe what is required of them is their annihilation. You think it is eternal conscious torment. I, therefore, am asking you if you think sinners, what you have called "the lost," will exist after the first heaven and earth pass away and the new heaven and earth appear where sin, death and pain no longer exist. I'm also growing increasing curious why a simply yes-or-no question isn't answered immediately with a simple yes or no.


Does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?


.

 

[Josheb]

Lake of Fire is the eternal death, but does nor mean cease to exist

How can the Lake of Fire be eternal death if death is abolished and there is no death in the new heavens and earth?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Eternal conscious torment would be painful, yes?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people,
and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away.”​

Maybe it's a comfortable, warm, fuzzy, joyous kind of conscious torment .


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth? Are the sinfully sinful lost present in the new heavens and earth?
.