Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Keiw1]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the Lord Jesus Christ before His incarnation as the God men had seen in the Old Testament.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

That was the day Abraham was glad because He told him that he would have a son.

God appeared and was seen by Isaac & Jacob too.

Genesis 26:1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

How do we know it was not God the Father men had seen rather than the Son, as Jesus did say Abraham had seen Him in his day?

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus testified that He has seen the Father as He is of God.
@Keiw1

Abraham never saw God. Gods representative is who he actually saw. No man has ever seen God. John would be a liar if any man ever actually saw God. There are clearly alternate reasonings and symbolisms in the bible. But no contradictions.

 

[Runningman]

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) disagrees with you:

". . .the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh and dwelled among us." (Jn 1:1, 14)

The word is an it according to 1 John 1 and is not personified in the same way John 1 typically does it.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

"Before Abraham was, I AM." (Jn 8:58)

Check Exodus 3:14,15 where Jesus is not the I am. John 8:58 is not a reference to Jesus being God.

Agreed.

Yes, in Greek philosophy, that "it" (logos) is the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe.

Then Jesus didn't pre-exist as a literal being.

 

[ChristB4us]

Not according to scripture. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM, YHWH, and that's His name forever and how He is to be remembered. Jesus is not remembered this way at all.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Care to explain these scriptures away then?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

 

[ChristB4us]

Abraham never saw God. Gods representative is who he actually saw. No man has ever seen God. John would be a liar if any man ever actually saw God. There are clearly alternate reasonings and symbolisms in the bible. But no contradictions.

The apostle John reported what Jesus said about no man having seen God the Father, but scriptures testifies that men had seen God, even Jacob had wrestled Him face to face and had lived.

Then you have Jesus saying it was Him that Abraham had seen.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Men had seen God in the Old testament; it wasn't God the Father, but Jesus as the Word of God before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

With the Lord's help, trusting Him to align all the truths in scriptures together is how He can expose the works of darkness created by cults.

 

[CrowCross]

2Peter 3:14--Hence, beloved ones since you are awaiting these things' do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.- 1Tim 6:14-That you observe the commandments in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matt 7:21-Jesus assures-Only those living now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( get grace, be saved, get salvation) and Jesus summed that will up-Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God.

Oh you poor soul.....you can't do it...can you????

 

[CrowCross]

I believe Jesus-John 17:3--The one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--We all must choose who we believe. The errors contradict Jesus. Gods truth has no contradictions.

Let me say it again....kenosis.

NEXT

 

[Runningman]

Care to explain these scriptures away then?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The author of Hebrews explained Abraham's faith, but I wouldn't say he "explained it away." The writers of the Bible speak about their fathers and brethren with respect and not dismissively. Abraham didn't receive the promise before he died, but saw it (in faith) from afar.

Hebrews 11
10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It's not referring to literally seeing God hence he God is being declared rather than visibly seen. For example, see John 14 where Jesus explained that by knowing Jesus they can know his Father. That isn't literally seeing God.

7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Correct, see above. They which are of God can see the Father hence why the disciples can "see" God as well.

 

[ChristB4us]

The author of Hebrews explained Abraham's faith, but I wouldn't say he "explained it away." The writers of the Bible speak about their fathers and brethren with respect and not dismissively. Abraham didn't receive the promise before he died, but saw it (in faith) from afar.

Hebrews 11
10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

That was not what Jesus said and the jews knew what He had meant since they sought to stone Him for declaring Himself God, they very one that appeared to Abraham in his day for why he was glad to see the Son of God before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

It's not referring to literally seeing God hence he God is being declared rather than visibly seen. For example, see John 14 where Jesus explained that by knowing Jesus they can know his Father. That isn't literally seeing God.

7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Actually, His disciples were seeing & hearing Jesus as proclaiming Himself as God.

Correct, see above. They which are of God can see the Father hence why the disciples can "see" God as well.

By seeing Jesus was how His disciples were seeing God.

However, Jesus testified that no man had seen the Father at any time, except Himself, and so the God men had seen in the O.T. was Jesus before His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many since God our Creator has to be God Our Redeemer.

 

[Eleanor]

The word is an it according to 1 John 1 and is not personified in the same way John 1 typically does it.
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

Pathetic. . .intellectually dishonest.
Setting Scripture against itself cannot give a correct understanding.

John is speaking of "the life," which is Jesus.
Grammatically, "life" is not a personal noun (he), and neither is its pronoun (it).
Deliberate misrepresentation.

Jesus is the eternal life (1 Jn 1:2) and the true God (1 Jn 5:20).

Check Exodus 3:14,15 where Jesus is not the I am. John 8:58 is not a reference to Jesus being God.

Setting Scripture against itself.
Jn 8:58 is in agreement with Jn 1:1, 14, where Jesus is God.

Then Jesus didn't pre-exist as a literal being.

Pathetic. . .intellectually dishonest.
The First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe (logos) pre-existed all creation (Jn 1:1) and became flesh (Jn 1:14).
"By him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the first born (resurrection) from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him," (Col 1:16-19)

Please do your Scriptural homework before responding.

 

[Eleanor]

Abraham never saw God. Gods representative is who he actually saw. No man has ever seen God.

See Ge 32:30, Ex 24:10-11.

John would be a liar if any man ever actually saw God.

No more so than Jacob or Moses.

 

[Runningman]

Pathetic. . .intellectually dishonest.
Setting Scripture against itself cannot give a correct understanding.

John is speaking of "the life," which is Jesus.
Grammatically, "life" is not a personal noun (he), and neither is its pronoun (it).
Deliberate misrepresentation.

It is the word [Logos] of life. You were saying the Word was God.

Jesus is the eternal life (1 Jn 1:2) and the true God (1 Jn 5:20).

Setting Scripture against itself.
Jn 8:58 is in agreement with Jn 1:1, 14, where Jesus is God.

Are you pitting scripture against itself? I am giving you scripture to look at so you can understand what you're talking about.

1 John 1:1-3 says the word of life is an it.

Is it possible the logos isn't actually a being, but rather it's personified because it's godly?

Pathetic. . .intellectually dishonest.
The First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe (logos) pre-existed all creation (Jn 1:1) and became flesh (Jn 1:14).
"By him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the first born (resurrection) from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him," (Col 1:16-19)

Please do your Scriptural homework before responding.

Jesus was created hence he didn't manifest until the word of God manifested a human. God spoke and created Jesus. It's right there in 1 John 1.

2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.[Jesus]

 

[Runningman]

That was not what Jesus said and the jews knew what He had meant since they sought to stone Him for declaring Himself God, they very one that appeared to Abraham in his day for why he was glad to see the Son of God before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

Abraham "seeing" Jesus' day fits perfectly with Hebrews 11 where those people didn't literally lay eyes on the things they were "seeing" in faith.

Actually, His disciples were seeing & hearing Jesus as proclaiming Himself as God.

Jess never proclaimed himself as God. You don't have a quote for that.

By seeing Jesus was how His disciples were seeing God.

Jesus was saying that by knowing him you can know that Father and thus in knowing Him you are "seeing" God. Not that Jesus is literally God. They knew God by the words Jesus spoke from God to them. Jesus is God's servant, a prophet.

John 14
8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

However, Jesus testified that no man had seen the Father at any time, except Himself, and so the God men had seen in the O.T. was Jesus before His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many since God our Creator has to be God Our Redeemer.

Jesus is a man therefore he did not literally see the Father, hence why Jesus "explained" God to them rather than showing them the Father. They can't literally see God.

John 1
18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[Keiw1]

The apostle John reported what Jesus said about no man having seen God the Father, but scriptures testifies that men had seen God, even Jacob had wrestled Him face to face and had lived.

Then you have Jesus saying it was Him that Abraham had seen.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Men had seen God in the Old testament; it wasn't God the Father, but Jesus as the Word of God before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

With the Lord's help, trusting Him to align all the truths in scriptures together is how He can expose the works of darkness created by cults.

No one knows if it was Jesus or an angel, but in either case-all things done for Jehovah. Alls they do is represent God in their dealings. They are ONE in purpose.

 

[Keiw1]

Oh you poor soul.....you can't do it...can you????

What are you talking about?

 

[Keiw1]

Let me say it again....kenosis.

NEXT

I don't even know what that word means, but it doesn't negate bible truth.

 

[Keiw1]

See Ge 32:30, Ex 24:10-11.

No more so than Jacob or Moses.

It was one representing God who they saw. The same reasoning when Jesus said one could see the Father in him--Jesus was Gods image, that is how, Gods representative.

 

[ChristB4us]

No one knows if it was Jesus or an angel, but in either case-all things done for Jehovah. Alls they do is represent God in their dealings. They are ONE in purpose.

Jehovah is a name Jesus went by before His incarnation.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't even know what that word means, but it doesn't negate bible truth.

I know....and you should know what the word means if your going to keep telling usf your "biblical truths"

Kenosis....learn about it....as your theology doesn't reflect it.

 

[Eleanor]

It is the word [Logos] of life. You were saying the Word was God.

The Word who was God became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:1, 14).
Jesus is the life in 1 Jn. The "word" (it) is the gospel.

Are you pitting scripture against itself? I am giving you scripture to look at so you can understand what you're talking about.

1 John 1:1-3 says the word of life is an it.

Sorry.
The word is the gospel (it).The life is Jesus.
The Greek text reads: "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and we bear witness and we announce to you the life eternal, which was with the Father and manifested to us,"

Is it possible the logos isn't actually a being, but rather it's personified because it's godly?

No, not in the light of the NT.
The "word" (logos) of Jn 1:1 is a person, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:14). Jesus is an actual being.
The "word of the life", "the life," "the eternal life" in 1 Jn 1:1-2 all refer to the person, Jesus, because he is the living one who has life in himself (Jn 11:25, 14:6), who is the source of life and sovereign over life (5:11), who is eternal life (5:20).
As truth is a person (Jn 14:6), so eternal life is a person (1 Jn 5:20, 11).
The "word" refers to the gospel, the gospel of the life (Jesus).

Jesus was created hence he didn't manifest until the word of God manifested a human. God spoke and created Jesus. It's right there in 1 John 1.
2 And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.[Jesus]

The Greek text of 1 Jn 1:1-2 reads: "1) What was (past tense) from the beginning (the life), what we have heard, what we have seen with the eyes of us, what we beheld and the hands of us touched, concerning the word of life: 2) and the life was manifested, and we have seen and we bear witness and we announce to you the life eternal, which was with the Father and was manifested to us."

In 1 Jn 1:1 "word" does not refer to Jesus, it refers to the gospel, while "life" refers to Jesus.

The Word who was God (Jn 1:1) became man in the created body of Jesus (Jn 1:14). Jesus was both God and man, the God-man.

 

[Eleanor]

It was one representing God who they saw. The same reasoning when Jesus said one could see the Father in him--Jesus was Gods image, that is how, Gods representative.

However, that is not what the word of God states in Ge 32:30, Ex 24:10-11.