Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Red Baker]

I would love to continue this thought but not here, I do not want to be guilty of hijacking this thread.

Let me see if I can start another thread on this subject. Give me time, or anyone feel free to do so. I may be able to do so this afternoon~for sure in the morning.

 

[CrowCross]

When one is regenerated (i.e. born again), it is like being hit by lorry. To change similes, it is like a bright light being switched on inside you, where previously there was only darkness.

It's not that I disagree...but not everyone is saved with such an experience.

 

[David1701]

It's not that I disagree...but not everyone is saved with such an experience.

Circumstances, age, personality, background, ethnicity, hearing the gospel or reading it, etc., may all differ; but, the fundamentals are always the same: the law or conscience, leading to conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, hearing/reading the gospel, being born again, accompanied by godly sorrow, repentance, faith in Jesus Christ and love for him, the joy of the Lord and a changed lifestyle.

The old Puritans, after a huge amount of experience dealing with people who heard the gospel and professed faith in Christ, said, "No tears, no salvation". This was about the fact that it's godly sorrow that leads to repentance; but mental assent and human decisions can occur without it, and mental assent leads to many religious "conversions", without the life of God.

 

[donadams]

Acts 2:38-39 says children

 

[atpollard]

Acts 2:38-39 says children

I am pretty sure it says a lot of other words along with “children” … those other words are important, too.

Act 2:38-39 [ESV]
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

it also says:

• REPENT AND be baptized (immersed)
• every one OF YOU
• for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS
• YOU will receive the GIFT if the HOLY SPIRIT

[this is “the promise”]

It is THE PROMISE that is for you “and your CHILDREN”.

So have your babies REPENTED?
Have THEY repented (not someone repenting for them)?
Have all their SINS BEEN FORGIVEN?
Have they received the HOLY SPIRIT?

If not, then Acts 2:38-39 is still a promise waiting for them to step into it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Act 2:38-39 [ESV]
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

The word is name as power of Christ. . not H20 lifeless powerless

The Bible a spiritual book writen by the finger of God who remains eternal Spirit did not become Literal H20 . . a drop in the bucket LOL

Spiritual unseen things of Christ spiritual words spiritual meaning . Lterazing the spiritual causes confusion

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be washed every one of you in the authority of Jesus Christ.
H20 provides no power authority it , and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Not getting the gift of I think wet myself For the promise is not literal H20 unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ephesians 5:26 That he. . . . . Not h20 might sanctify and cleanse (Baptize) it the church with the washing of water by the word, as it is written sola scriptura)

 

[donadams]

I am pretty sure it says a lot of other words along with “children” … those other words are important, too.

Act 2:38-39 [ESV]
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

it also says:

• REPENT AND be baptized (immersed)
• every one OF YOU
• for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS
• YOU will receive the GIFT if the HOLY SPIRIT

[this is “the promise”]

It is THE PROMISE that is for you “and your CHILDREN”.

So have your babies REPENTED?
Have THEY repented (not someone repenting for them)?
Have all their SINS BEEN FORGIVEN?
Have they received the HOLY SPIRIT?

If not, then Acts 2:38-39 is still a promise waiting for them to step into it.

If they have no personal sin do they still need to repent?

 

[makesends]

This is a very concerning response, Red Baker.

When one is regenerated (i.e. born again), it is like being hit by lorry. To change similes, it is like a bright light being switched on inside you, where previously there was only darkness. There is godly sorrow, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and the cross, and the joy of sins forgiven, where previously there was only doubt, guilt and unbelief. There is powerful love for the Lord, which, a moment before, had not been there.

Charles Wesley describes it perfectly (I'm not a Wesleyan, but the following verse of his hymn is excellent).

And Can it Be (verse 4)

"Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee."

If no-one notices the "change", then there was no change.

@Red Baker is partially right. That is, WHEN it happened, one may or may not be aware. The change is to the inner man, and done quite apart from conferring with or obtaining the permission of the Elect while still at enmity with God, there is no guarantee that it is even done at some moment, or whether it took years to accomplish. What we do know is that when it has happened, one becomes a new man, etc. In a sense, and by human construction, it could be said that Red is completely right, because when we become aware of it, it already has happened, though the awareness may be immediate. After all, if it hasn't happened, one is not aware of it having happened!

This is often part of the problem with the self-determinist Pelagian and Arminian. What they have experienced is so radical, and the feeling accompanying the release of their will in submission so compelling, that they think THAT is when the faith happened.

 

[Red Baker]

@Red Baker is partially right. That is, WHEN it happened, one may or may not be aware. The change is to the inner man, and done quite apart from conferring with or obtaining the permission of the Elect while still at enmity with God, there is no guarantee that it is even done at some moment, or whether it took years to accomplish. What we do know is that when it has happened, one becomes a new man, etc. In a sense, and by human construction, it could be said that Red is completely right, because when we become aware of it, it already has happened, though the awareness may be immediate. After all, if it hasn't happened, one is not aware of it having happened!

This is often part of the problem with the self-determinist Pelagian and Arminian. What they have experienced is so radical, and the feeling accompanying the release of their will in submission so compelling, that they think THAT is when the faith happened.

The problem lies in the fact that so many conclude that regeneration and conversion are one and the same, though closely connected, yet they are indeed different.

Do regeneration and conversion take place at the same time?

THOMAS: Regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious, and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness. Let me give you an example. My wife

www.ligonier.org

Regenerate Yet Unconverted - Is There Such a Thing?

One lone Primitive Baptist's perspective on pop theology.

theearstohear.blogspot.com

Regeneration and Conversion - Roland

This one written by a saint who is almost 100 years old and still living on his own and doing fine. I have known Mr. Crosby for many years, one of the most humble and godly men I have ever met personally.

 

[JIM]

The problem lies in the fact that so many conclude that regeneration and conversion are one and the same, though closely connected, yet they are indeed different.

Do regeneration and conversion take place at the same time?

THOMAS: Regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious, and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness. Let me give you an example. My wife

www.ligonier.org

Regenerate Yet Unconverted - Is There Such a Thing?

One lone Primitive Baptist's perspective on pop theology.

theearstohear.blogspot.com

Regeneration and Conversion - Roland

This one written by a saint who is almost 100 years old and still living on his own and doing fine. I have known Mr. Crosby for many years, one of the most humble and godly men I have ever met personally.

There are some problems with the first two. But one significant problem is that neither actually provided a biblical definition of conversion. Actually, neither really provided a definition of regeneration either. But then, that is the problem with so much of any discussion that appears on forums such as this. We all talk past each other because there is not agreed upon definition of so many words.

The "assumed" definition of conversion in those have nothing whatsoever with regeneration. Given the meaning of "convert" in Luke 22:32 (KJV), one can be converted an unlimited number of times. And there it is strongly implied that the conversion is self acting, it is something the person does.

For what it is worth, most English versions do not translate/interpret Luke 22:32 as converted, but rather as turn back or come back or turned again. In such, conversion is not only not the same thing as regeneration, they are not even connected.

 

[David1701]

@Red Baker is partially right. That is, WHEN it happened, one may or may not be aware. The change is to the inner man, and done quite apart from conferring with or obtaining the permission of the Elect while still at enmity with God, there is no guarantee that it is even done at some moment, or whether it took years to accomplish. What we do know is that when it has happened, one becomes a new man, etc. In a sense, and by human construction, it could be said that Red is completely right, because when we become aware of it, it already has happened, though the awareness may be immediate. After all, if it hasn't happened, one is not aware of it having happened!

This is often part of the problem with the self-determinist Pelagian and Arminian. What they have experienced is so radical, and the feeling accompanying the release of their will in submission so compelling, that they think THAT is when the faith happened.

You cannot be born again without knowing it!

Your inner man is now light in the Lord: before it was only darkness; you now hate the sin you once loved and love the Lord you once hated. You have a new, soft heart/spirit, in place of the heart of stone. This simply cannot happen without you being aware; and it happens in a moment of time, as everyone who has experienced it knows.

Being born again immediately converts you to the Lord in repentance and faith. There could never be a noticeable gap between the two, even though being born again precedes repentance and faith in logical order.

 

[Red Baker]

The "assumed" definition of conversion in those have nothing whatsoever with regeneration. Given the meaning of "convert" in Luke 22:32 (KJV), one can be converted an unlimited number of times. And there it is strongly implied that the conversion is self acting, it is something the person does.

Good morning Jim,

Jim, one can be converted numerous times. Consider the apostles who had a very limited knowledge at the beginning, but their knowledge increased greatly, but like Peter, still was increasing as he read Paul's epistles, who was converted as much as flesh and blood can be.

2nd Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

Now to the degree Peter was up where Paul was is not easily to prove, yet I would think he was close to the degree they would have never contradicted each other publicly, that's a given; but for sure Paul wrote with a very clear understanding of all things~and they were not at first easy for even the most learn disciple to grasp.

All saints slowly grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, especially so on certain bible doctrines. The great Augustine even wrote a book of retractions where he changed his understanding over times on many positions, some he just saw more clearly than when he first started out, just as I have, and the list is not short, but on many. I could share them if anyone is interesting. I'm not ashamed of changing, it is part of growing in grace and knowledge of the truth more perfectly, much like Apollos did. Any man who boast of never changing is a person to be pity, for either he is married to a sect's position; to proud to admit he's in error; thinks way too highly of own ability as to not continuously test his own teaching with the word of God.

We all here for one main reason ~ to spread what we believe to be the truth, and to test our own teachings by listening to others spirits who may have some truth we do not yet embrace. Or, to just labor to be converted more perfectly to God's word.

C. H. Spurgeon said it best when we said something along these words that I read many years ago: "We should always hold fast the truth in one hand, yet have our other hand open to receive God truth that we do not yet see."

 

[Red Baker]

You cannot be born again without knowing it!

David, sure one can be, that's not a wise statement on your part.

Regeneration take place in the sub-conscience part of us, we are totally passive, God alone is the only active person working. Regeneration can take place at anytime from conception, to just before the spirit leaves our body, just as it did with John the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

David, you could be dead asleep, working at your job, could be while one is blasphemy God, killing saints, even having sex with your spouse, since all things are open and naked unto the eyes of our God and he does not need us to be in a certain frame of mind in a proper way in order to create a new man within us, it's foolish to even think so. Until one is born again that man is at enmity against God and the new birth from that point forward give him the power to hear, believe, repent and to baptized into the religion and faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I could add much to this if you think I should, no problem.

One more quick thought before stopping: Can a new born child know that they are born into his world? Truly what do they know, all they do for the first three months or so, is sleep, eat, and mess in their diapers.

 

[Alive]

A thing can be made to sound reasonable to the carnal mind and be wrong.
That which is of the Spirit is Spirit and of the flesh is flesh.

I suggest to all who have little or a great deal of head knowledge to read carefully what is contained in Salvation is Relocation. Being placed into Christ by the Father is a real actual historical event and it all happens in a moment in time.
The only aspects of that Work that are not complete in that moment are an ongoing sanctification as He works in us and our final Change when He returns.

All those other fancy words are human conjecture and akin to Gnosticism.

 

[David1701]

David, sure one can be, that's not a wise statement on your part.

It's a knowledgeable statement that one cannot be born again without knowing that it has happened.

Regeneration take place in the sub-conscience part of us, we are totally passive, God alone is the only active person working. Regeneration can take place at anytime from conception, to just before the spirit leaves our body, just as it did with John the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

Regeneration is God giving you a new, soft heart/spirit, in place of your heart of stone (Ez. 36:26,27). Did John the Baptist know, even in the womb? Yes, he did! Even as a baby, he leapt for joy, as the Bible says.

David, you could be dead asleep, working at your job, could be while one is blasphemy God, killing saints, even having sex with your spouse, since all things are open and naked unto the eyes of our God and he does not need us to be in a certain frame of mind in a proper way in order to create a new man within us, it's foolish to even think so. Until one is born again that man is at enmity against God and the new birth from that point forward give him the power to hear, believe, repent and to baptized into the religion and faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What are you talking about? I did not say anything about us having to be "in a certain frame of mind"!

The Bible never says anything about us being given the mere "power" to hear, believe or repent; rather, it says that these things themselves are gifts from God.

I could add much to this if you think I should, no problem.

Not if it's the same kind of nonsense that you've posted so far.

One more quick thought before stopping: Can a new born child know that they are born into his world? Truly what do they know, all they do for the first three months or so, is sleep, eat, and mess in their diapers.

You know that there has been a drastic change in you, even if you don't know the correct term for it. You know that you now love the Lord and hate sin, which is the opposite from before.

 

[JIM]

Good morning Jim,

Yes, it is a good morning. I am looking at the grass from the green side.

Jim, one can be converted numerous times. Consider the apostles who had a very limited knowledge at the beginning, but their knowledge increased greatly, but like Peter, still was increasing as he read Paul's epistles, who was converted as much as flesh and blood can be.

Yes, and again, that really is not connected with regeneration at all.

All saints slowly grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, especially so on certain bible doctrines.

Yes, of course. But what you and Roland (the article you posted) are calling conversion, I would call sanctification.

Regeneration is an event that happens in a single moment, but its effects are meant to be eternal. It is the beginning point for a process that lasts throughout this life and reaches perfection in heaven. This process is usually called sanctification.

The term “sanctification” is part of the word family having to do with holiness. Though some disagree, I believe the root idea in this word family is separation. The OT word for “holy” (qadosh) most likely comes from a word that means “to cut, to divide, to separate.” Thus a holy person or thing is one that is separated or set apart from others.

We have seen that God is holy in two senses. First is his ontological holiness, or transcendence. This means that God as eternal and uncreated is set apart from or distinct from all created beings in his very essence. Second is his ethical holiness, or perfect moral purity. This means that he is separate in every way from sin and everything sinful.

In the NT the main adjective for “holy” is hagios. Variations are the verb hagiazo, “to make holy, to set apart or consecrate, to sanctify”; and the noun hagiasmos, “holiness, sanctification, consecration.” Thus sanctification is basically the same concept as holiness. We should also note that the adjective hagios is often used as a noun, i.e., “holy one.” When used thus of Christians, it is usually translated “saint.”

We all here for one main reason ~ to spread what we believe to be the truth, and to test our own teachings by listening to others spirits who may have some truth we do not yet embrace.

I agree with that, certainly. Otherwise I would not have spent all those hours over the last many years in conversation with you.

 

[JIM]

You cannot be born again without knowing it!

I certainly agree with that. One cannot be born again without being saved, i.e., without having received the gift of eternal life. Having been saved and being given the gift of eternal life would be, if nothing else, very disconcerting and cruel on the part of God.

 

[Mr GLee]

2nd Peter 3:16​

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

Now to the degree Peter was up where Paul was is not easily to prove, yet I would think he was close to the degree they would have never contradicted each other publicly, that's a given; but for sure Paul wrote with a very clear understanding of all things~and they were not at first easy for even the most learn disciple to grasp.

I would offer my opinion . in respect to in which are some things hard to be understood,

They I believe are things that cannot be understood by natural unconverted mankind .

Christ, in us is our living hope. Yoked with his labor of love He give us His understanding, a work of his faithfulness our daily bread .Or called hidden mana in (Rev 2:17)

Hard to be understood speaks of those who stop up their ears and resist spirit of grace. . . the power of Christ's faithfulness .

John 6:60-63 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

An example.

Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

 

[JIM]

All those other fancy words are human conjecture and akin to Gnosticism.

And you seriously think all those fancy words in Salvation is Relocation aren't human conjecture and akin to Gnosticism??!! That is truly amazing.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jim, one can be converted numerous times. Consider the apostles who had a very limited knowledge at the beginning, but their knowledge increased greatly, but like Peter, still was increasing as he read Paul's epistles, who was converted as much as flesh and blood can be

I would offer we must be careful how we hear who we say we do . . We are not saved by knowledge. . it puffs up. Christ's patient Love builds up It does not boast and it keeps no record suffered against it

Born again once .

It would seem some put him to public shame as if one propmised three days and night demonstration of the lamb slain from the foundation . The Father working in the Son of man Jesus. . . was not enough to please their dying flesh .

Hebrew 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they "crucify" to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If he began he will finish teaching even slow learners like myself . grades on his curve of faith . . open book test .

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: