Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[JIM]

Jim, again, I gave the sense of Acts 2:38 based upon the context of Acts 2:37!

Yes, and even in Acts 2:37, you changed the meaning of the phrase, "pricked in their heart", to give it YOUR sense, namely, that it means they were regenerated. There is no basis whatsoever for attaching that meaning to the phrase.

They had just been told that they had murdered their Messiah. So, yes, they were "pricked in the heart". It was as though they had been slapped up aside of their heads with a two-by-four, if such a thing had existed then. Everything that they had believed about the Messiah before then had just been completely undone. Everything they thought they knew from the prophecies in the OT scriptures about their Messiah had just been totally wiped out. Clearly, they hadn't been regenerated, they had been declared dead and done. What were they going to do now? Peter told them.

 

[JIM]

That may be the case, but it may also have been just as an expository preacher might do on a Sunday morning.

Yes, but hopefully, that expository preacher would not change the intended meaning of scriptures to suit his own biased thinking. Unfortunately, that is precisely what far too many expository preachers do all too often. If that were not the case, there would not be the many different and often conflicting denominational theologies.

 

[Alive]

Yes, but hopefully, that expository preacher would not change the intended meaning of scriptures to suit his own biased thinking. Unfortunately, that is precisely what far too many expository preachers do all too often. If that were not the case, there would not be the many different and often conflicting denominational theologies.

Yes. It’s obvious, but we hope that on the vital issues, we all agree.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, my dear friend in Christ, you lose so much by your refusal to use and consider all the information and data available to you.

Jim, my friend, I use mainly the scriptures, along with certain books written by men, whom I consider God fearing men, like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards, Pink, but my favorite is Samuel Richardson, A Particular Baptist. Many of these men believe different from me on infant baptism, yet I do not allow that to hinder me from loving what they wrote on so other many issues/doctrines.

Jim, I also have consider many other views of godly men, but, I like you, test them with the scriptures and my conscience makes me to go with the scriptures above flesh and blood. I also, understand other men doing the same toward what I have to say, no problem on my end for them following their conscience, in light of what they think the scriptures teaches. I would not want them to do otherwise. We all live in a body of sin and death, thereby, subject to error quicker than we are willing to admit, or want to admit.

You so often use Nehemiah 8:8 to support your practice of changing the meaning of words and passages in scripture from that actually written.

Jim, my friend, it is not changing the meaning of the passage, but laboring to give them their proper God given sense.

Example:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jim, I have heard men say that the Greek said ~ except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yet I know the Lord never said those words, he said exactly what we have in our English bible! Except a man be born again....

I know that to be so, because of what Nicodemus said back to him!

John 3:4​

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

Also, John 3:16~unless one follows Nehemiah 8:8, he will never understand the meaning of the word "world", never. The meaning of the word world, meaning Jews and Gentiles, not the Jews only~all without distinction, not all without exception.

So, not changing the meaning of any word, but giving them their proper sense, so that people can understand the word of God. Enough on this for now.

 

[JIM]

Yes. It’s obvious, but we hope that on the vital issues, we all agree.

But, in fact, we don't, do we? There is no issued so vital as soteriology and yet that is the very issue that divides most of Christendom. Clearly, you and I disagree on the fundamentals of soteriology. You think I am wrong, and I think you are wrong, and we both quote scripture to prove that we are right. You think I don't understand scripture correctly and I think you don't understand scripture correctly.

As the old Rabbi once proclaimed, "There is always hope, but in your case, there is no chance".

 

[Red Baker]

Again, why was Jesus baptized?

I have some meetings, I'll come back and address your post to me.

 

[Alive]

Sometimes, in these discussions, it becomes difficult to see where the object of the arguments lies.

 

[JIM]

Jim, my friend, I use mainly the scriptures, along with certain books written by men, whom I consider God fearing men, like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards, Pink, but my favorite is Samuel Richardson, A Particular Baptist. Many of these men believe different from me on infant baptism, yet I do not allow that to hinder me from loving what they wrote on so other many issues/doctrines.

Jim, I also have consider many other views of godly men, but, I like you, test them with the scriptures and my conscience makes me to go with the scriptures above flesh and blood. I also, understand other men doing the same toward what I have to say, no problem on my end for them following their conscience, in light of what they think the scriptures teaches. I would not want them to do otherwise. We all live in a body of sin and death, thereby, subject to error quicker than we are willing to admit, or want to admit.


Jim, my friend, it is not changing the meaning of the passage, but laboring to give them their proper God given sense.

Example:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jim, I have heard men say that the Greek said ~ except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yet I know the Lord never said those words, he said exactly what we have in our English bible! Except a man be born again....

I know that to be so, because of what Nicodemus said back to him!

John 3:4​

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

Also, John 3:16~unless one follows Nehemiah 8:8, he will never understand the meaning of the word "world", never. The meaning of the word world, meaning Jews and Gentiles, not the Jews only~all without distinction, not all without exception.

So, not changing the meaning of any word, but giving them their proper sense, so that people can understand the word of God. Enough on this for now.

But indeed in this very instance you have given the sense which comes not from scripture, per se, but rather from your own biased theology. Face it, all are guilty of that doing that very thing. And you have just done it again with John 3.

I often refer to John Gill in my studies. I have gained a great deal of insight from reading him. So often, when Gill is about to give his "sense" of a passage which literally runs counter to his beliefs, he introduces his discussion with the words "not that.....".

See how he introduces his version of things concerning Acts 2:38: He says, "for the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism....."

He then proceeds to lay out his reasons why "for the remissions of sins" can't really mean what Luke actually said.

 

[Simons]

Remember scripture didn't say, "everyone believed."

I concede that we are at the point where we should agree to disagree and move on, but I think that I should at least take the time to correct the above assertion.

I referenced 5 occasions where "households" are used...including these 3:

1 Cor 16: 15 the household of Stephanas converted (that household was baptized by Paul and I would consider “converted” involving “believed”....this household also devoted themselves to service)

Acts 18:8 the entire household of Crispus believed

Acts 16:34 here either the Jailer’s whole household believed or the Jailer’s whole household rejoiced at the Jailer’s belief (I think that you want to go with the latter interpretation, but infants are no more capable of rejoicing at someone else's belief than they are capable of their own belief....so I don't see the latter interpretation as resolving the problem for you).

The members of these households are simply doing things that are beyond the abilities of newborns.

Cheers

 

[Mr GLee]

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It would offer. I believe more "you have received" , not shall. As in as many that have received . . They alone are empowered to come . We come through the one Father, the one with "Let there be" and "it was our fathers good and perfect power."

My offering of Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, believe the truth, and be washed with the water of the word. . his doctrines that fall like gospel rain and produce green pastures every one of you in the Power of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, you freely "have received"(not will receive ) the gift of the Holy Ghost. A new born again spirit that could never die

God is not served by the dying hand of mankind as a will of men . (Acts 17) He who is of one mind has no needs but satisfices all his own needs . . making us different so that we might reach out to Him who has no form . . . neither does he desire .

Why would he who works in us desire to have form? which one. Tall, thin, good speaker, nice eyes?

Water represents the pouring out of the Spirit of Christ on dry thirsty land to represent flesh producing green pastures of rest. . Those yoked with Immanuel's labor of love, the power of faith (the unseen eternal ) can rest in His understanding

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Isaiah 35:6-8King James Version6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer in regard to members of the household....

Religion is belief . Atheist's religion.. . no invisible God.

No such thing as no religion.

James 1:26-27 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Before conversion all were all orphans without our heavenly father all were not married as the virgin bride of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (the invisible things of eternal God)

Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. (the invisible things of eternal God)

 

[atpollard]

I concede that we are at the point where we should agree to disagree and move on, but I think that I should at least take the time to correct the above assertion.

I referenced 5 occasions where "households" are used...including these 3:

1 Cor 16: 15 the household of Stephanas converted (that household was baptized by Paul and I would consider “converted” involving “believed”....this household also devoted themselves to service)

Acts 18:8 the entire household of Crispus believed

Acts 16:34 here either the Jailer’s whole household believed or the Jailer’s whole household rejoiced at the Jailer’s belief (I think that you want to go with the latter interpretation, but infants are no more capable of rejoicing at someone else's belief than they are capable of their own belief....so I don't see the latter interpretation as resolving the problem for you).

The members of these households are simply doing things that are beyond the abilities of newborns.

Cheers

I was hoping someone would present the actual verses so the discussion could move beyond statements of opinion.
One can now agree or disagree, but the SCRIPTURE has been presented.

Proverbs 18:17 [NIV] In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.

 

[Carbon]

I concede that we are at the point where we should agree to disagree and move on, but I think that I should at least take the time to correct the above assertion.

I referenced 5 occasions where "households" are used...including these 3:

1 Cor 16: 15 the household of Stephanas converted (that household was baptized by Paul and I would consider “converted” involving “believed”....this household also devoted themselves to service)

Acts 18:8 the entire household of Crispus believed

Acts 16:34 here either the Jailer’s whole household believed or the Jailer’s whole household rejoiced at the Jailer’s belief (I think that you want to go with the latter interpretation, but infants are no more capable of rejoicing at someone else's belief than they are capable of their own belief....so I don't see the latter interpretation as resolving the problem for you).

The members of these households are simply doing things that are beyond the abilities of newborns.

Cheers

Also before we agree to disagree I need to mention a couple things. And have a question.

Scripture does not teach in these verses that the whole households were saved. I’ll show you later when I’m home from work.

The question, before I show you, not that it will make a difference, but are you a KJV only person? I’m not passing judgement.

Thanks

 

[makesends]

Example:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jim, I have heard men say that the Greek said ~ except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yet I know the Lord never said those words, he said exactly what we have in our English bible! Except a man be born again....

I know that to be so, because of what Nicodemus said back to him!

John 3:4​

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

Also, John 3:16~unless one follows Nehemiah 8:8, he will never understand the meaning of the word "world", never. The meaning of the word world, meaning Jews and Gentiles, not the Jews only~all without distinction, not all without exception.

So, not changing the meaning of any word, but giving them their proper sense, so that people can understand the word of God. Enough on this for now.

Red, be careful here. You said (my emphasis), "Yet I know the Lord never said those words, he said exactly what we have in our English bible! Except a man be born again.." Look up John 3:3 Interlinear: Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (John 3:3 in the Greek). Jesus did indeed say the words, in the Greek, "born from above". By implication it means "born anew", according to Strong's. But the words in the Greek are, "from above".

 

[Simons]

Scripture does not teach in these verses that the whole households were saved. I’ll show you later when I’m home from work.

Well, for that effort you may need to consider these verses (that I posted earlier):

Philippian Jailer’s Household (Acts 16:31-34) :

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.​

Cornelius’ household (Acts 10/11)

Acts 11:He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

Acts 10: 44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”​

The question, before I show you, not that it will make a difference, but are you a KJV only person?

oh heck no!

 

[Carbon]

Well, for that effort you may need to consider these verses (that I posted earlier):

Philippian Jailer’s Household (Acts 16:31-34) :

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.​

Cornelius’ household (Acts 10/11)

Acts 11:He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

Acts 10: 44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.​

​

Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”​

Okay. Will do. Thanks

oh heck no!

I’m glad to hear that.

 

[Carbon]

Acts 10: 44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.​

​

Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”​

I’m not sure why you would include this passage?

Thanks

 

[Carbon]

@Simons
And thank you for those passages you presented. I appreciate it. It gives me the opportunity to stay in scripture.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, be careful here. You said (my emphasis), "Yet I know the Lord never said those words, he said exactly what we have in our English bible! Except a man be born again.." Look up John 3:3 Interlinear: Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (John 3:3 in the Greek). Jesus did indeed say the words, in the Greek, "born from above". By implication it means "born anew", according to Strong's. But the words in the Greek are, "from above".

Greetings makesends~brother, again, I said that because of the context~I truly care less about any other thing, other than what does the context say.

I know my friend Jim, has heard this from me before since we go back around fifteen years on forums discussing scriptures. But for others who have never heard this, let me explain the word context.

Interpretations must agree with their context.​

We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must never violate it; learn to spot it.

1. A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.
2. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.
3. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.
4. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Hate this abuse of words!

You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. Make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. Mark it!

What is context? Let us make sure we understand exactly what we mean by context.

Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]

Verse four is connected to verse three and verse five is connected to verse four~Jesus would have never used the word water if Nicodemus had not mentioned entering into his mother's womb the second time!

Trusting in the context is indeed king in interpreting the scriptures~degrees behind one's name are not. Most of God's children are found among the fishermen, carpenters, blue collars workers, etc., if you will, they have learned the secret of understanding the word of God.

 

[makesends]

Greetings makesends~brother, again, I said that because of the context~I truly care less about any other thing, other than what does the context say.

I know my friend Jim, has heard this from me before since we go back around fifteen years on forums discussing scriptures. But for others who have never heard this, let me explain the word context.

Interpretations must agree with their context.​

We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must never violate it; learn to spot it.

1. A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.
2. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.
3. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.
4. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Hate this abuse of words!

You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. Make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. Mark it!

What is context? Let us make sure we understand exactly what we mean by context.

Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]

Verse four is connected to verse three and verse five is connected to verse four~Jesus would have never used the word water if Nicodemus had not mentioned entering into his mother's womb the second time!

Trusting in the context is indeed king in interpreting the scriptures~degrees behind one's name are not. Most of God's children are found among the fishermen, carpenters, blue collars workers, etc., if you will, they have learned the secret of understanding the word of God.

"Interpretation" is not "translation".

I have no real disagreement with any of that you said. My mention is about the words themselves, not the use Jesus meant for them. The literal translation is, "from above". Those are the words he said, though I too believe he said it to imply "born anew". The context gives the meaning, but the verse itself gave the words he used to come up with that meaning. YOU said that he did not say those words that the plenary verbal inspiration of scripture has listed as, literally, "from above". To say that he did not say those words implies that you reject the very words of scripture.

Translation is a tricky matter. It is easy to go with meaning by presenting words that the person did not say, and, conversely, it is easy to be literal and to lose the understanding intended. I prefer literal, generally, as there are often puns, plays on words and deeper contexts (as in this case) to be found in other parts of scripture (or even in the immediate context), and, because generally, as you indicated, context brings out the intended meaning of the literal word.

For example, "born from above", besides implying, "born anew", allows no question about where that regeneration comes from.