Christ Is Coming Soon!

[ShepherdsPie]

Hi, all.

Do you want to know why I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? ….because I believe Scripture tells me that there is no such thing. I think it is very important that Christians understand the chronological order of events. The Antichrist will come BEFORE Jesus Christ returns. He will have all power to perform signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men, and many will be deceived.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,9-10 (NKJV)

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved. "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

- Matthew 24:13,15-16,21,23,30 (NKJV)

Are you ready to endure to the end?

~Lu

 

[Josheb]

Christ Is Coming Soon!

How soon?

Please be specific, or at least as specific as you feel comfortable being. When you use the word "soon" in the statement "Christ is coming soon!" what do you mean by "soon"? Is soon a week from now? A month from now? A year from now? Two or three years, or maybe a decade from today? How about a century from now? When you use the word "soon," are we to understand that to mean Jesus is coming a century from now, and that is what you mean when using the word "soon"?

Again, please be as specific as you feel comfortable being. I am not asking you to set a specific date. I am asking you to explain your use of the word "soon."

Or is the title intended to be read rhetorically, perhaps with a hint of mockery?

 

[Arial]

Do you want to know why I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? ….because I believe Scripture tells me that there is no such thing. I think it is very important that Christians understand the chronological order of events. The Antichrist will come BEFORE Jesus Christ returns. He will have all power to perform signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men, and many will be deceived.

It is also very important to realize that when Christ returns the dead in Christ are resurrected with glorified bodies and those who remain alive will be changed (glorified) in the twinkling of an eye. And the ungodly will be raised to judgment. There is no seven year or thousand year interim between these things.

1 Thess 4


13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Cor 15


50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mr GLee]

Hi, all.

Do you want to know why I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? ….because I believe Scripture tells me that there is no such thing. I think it is very important that Christians understand the chronological order of events. The Antichrist will come BEFORE Jesus Christ returns. He will have all power to perform signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men, and many will be deceived.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,9-10 (NKJV)

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved. "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

- Matthew 24:13,15-16,21,23,30 (NKJV)

Are you ready to endure to the end? View attachment 933


~Lu

I would offer. .

Christ is already here working in those yoked with his labor of Love .It would seem he will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun .

The antichrists plural (another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and prophets.

False apostles, bringing false prohecy as oral traditons of dying mankind is here The Spirit Holy Spirt of Christ working in believes to both will and empower them to do the will of the Father to his good pleasure

 

[3 Resurrections]

It is also very important to realize that when Christ returns the dead in Christ are resurrected with glorified bodies and those who remain alive will be changed (glorified) in the twinkling of an eye

That is not what the 1 Thessalonians 4 verses said would happen at Christ's return. Those who were alive because they had not yet died by the time Christ was to return were NEVER promised a translation-type change of their bodies. That "change" to the incorruptible and immortal state is only for the dead in Christ, as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-55. The 1 Thessalonians 4 context never says that those who "are alive and remain" will be translated at that time. You are adding that to the context. All those in Christ are appointed to die the one time, just as all men are to experience if they are "in Adam". It is those believers in Christ who are physically dead which experience the bodily resurrection process at Christ's return.

Do you want to know why I don’t believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? ….because I believe Scripture tells me that there is no such thing. I think it is very important that Christians understand the chronological order of events. The Antichrist will come BEFORE Jesus Christ returns. He will have all power to perform signs and wonders and miracles in the sight of men, and many will be deceived.

Agreed that there was to be no pre-tribulation "rapture". Scripture indeed does not present such a thing, as you have said.

But as for that Antichrist who was the "Man of Lawlessness", Paul wrote that this man and his restrainer were alive at the time he was writing 2 Thessalonians 2, and that he had already in person informed the Thessalonian believers of who this man and his restrainer were at that time (2 Thess. 2:5-7). Those two men died in that first century generation. They are not a current threat which we are to expect in our future.

Christ did indeed come "soon" in the first century for those that were eagerly expecting His appearance. That imminent appearance of Christ at His second coming return was predicted in almost every one of the NT books. But Christ's next return will not be "soon" for us. The 3033 year is a long way off for us. Meanwhile, we are to busy ourselves with the "Great Commission" and pursuing personal holiness, as originally commanded by Christ.

 

[Arial]

That is not what the 1 Thessalonians 4 verses said would happen at Christ's return. Those who were alive because they had not yet died by the time Christ was to return were NEVER promised a translation-type change of their bodies. That "change" to the incorruptible and immortal state is only for the dead in Christ, as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-55. The 1 Thessalonians 4 context never says that those who "are alive and remain" will be translated at that time. You are adding that to the context. All those in Christ are appointed to die the one time, just as all men are to experience if they are "in Adam". It is those believers in Christ who are physically dead which experience the bodily resurrection process at Christ's return.

What do you mean by translated? I inserted nothing into the text, I merely said what the text said and then quoted those texts. 1 Cor 15:51-52 clearly says those alive at Christ's return will not fall asleep (die) but will be changed. This follows a lengthy discussion on imperishable and perishable, and that the imperishable cannot inherit the kingdom. In 54 Paul describes this change even further. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory".....

I never used the word "translated" so you need to tell me why you have inserted that into my post and tell me what meaning you are giving to it.

 

[Mr GLee]

That is not what the 1 Thessalonians 4 verses said would happen at Christ's return. Those who were alive because they had not yet died by the time Christ was to return were NEVER promised a translation-type change of their bodies. That "change" to the incorruptible and immortal state is only for the dead in Christ, as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-55. The 1 Thessalonians 4 context never says that those who "are alive and remain" will be translated at that time. You are adding that to the context. All those in Christ are appointed to die the one time, just as all men are to experience if they are "in Adam". It is those believers in Christ who are physically dead which experience the bodily resurrection process at Christ's return.

I would ask . If it is Christ our husband that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure .Where is he going to return from? No one has received thier new incorruptible body, neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What do you mean by translated? I inserted nothing into the text, I merely said what the text said and then quoted those texts. 1 Cor 15:51-52 clearly says those alive at Christ's return will not fall asleep (die) but will be changed. This follows a lengthy discussion on imperishable and perishable, and that the imperishable cannot inherit the kingdom. In 54 Paul describes this change even further. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory".....

I never used the word "translated" so you need to tell me why you have inserted that into my post and tell me what meaning you are giving to it.

those who remain alive will be changed (glorified) in the twinkling of an eye.

This one phrase you wrote in reply #3 above is what is called a "translation" of the body for those who have not yet died. Enoch was the only person who would ever receive this translation so that he did not see death. But Scripture does not promise this translation change to anyone at all since Enoch. All who are born "in Adam" will die the one appointed time, which includes the believers.

The 1 Thessalonians 4 text says nothing at all about those who would be alive at Christ's return being "translated" at that time into glorified bodies at Christ's return. Neither does 1 Corinthians 15 say anything at all about a translation-type change for the bodies of those who have not yet died when Christ returns. This is a common presumption which has no basis in scripture whatever. All must die that one appointed time. No one gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process that one time.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 was Paul telling the saints that none of the believers would remain sleeping in the grave at Christ's return, but that they would all be changed. No exceptions. ALL the dead believers would have their bodies changed into an immortal and incorruptible state when that change occurred. This text says absolutely nothing about those who hadn't died yet receiving that change to the incorruptible and immortal state. The context is speaking about the DEAD BODIES of the believers being changed so that none of them would remain sleeping in the grave.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Good discussion, folks. It seems we all have different understandings of things regarding the end times and such. Here’s a bit more of how I see it.

When our physical (flesh) body dies, we step into our spiritual body—in other words, we are changed from our terrestrial body into our celestial body—everyone of us, both the saved and the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

This is our change into our celestial bodies when our terrestrial body dies. But we need to keep in mind that it is not not our resurrection to immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Incorruptible bodies are bodies that cannot die or decay (This is talking about bodies, not souls).
Immortality is eternal life.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When Jesus returns at the last trump, we are given a body that’s incorruptible but not necessarily immortal, unless we are one of the justified/God’s elect.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Two things will happen: First, our flesh body is changed into a spiritual body, either at Christ's return or when we (physically) die in the flesh, whichever happens first.

Second, some of us will be granted eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (this is the First Resurrection), and some of us must wait until after the Millennium when, at the Great White Throne of Judgment, we will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or the second death, which is to perish and be no more.

Yeah, I believe there will be a Millennium when Jesus returns:

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-6

Lu

 

[Arial]

All who are born "in Adam" will die the one appointed time, which includes the believers.

Will the believers who are alive when Jesus returns die?

Not according to Scripture. In 1 Cor 15:51 Paul is talking about those who are alive when He returns.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, "Changed"----allagesometha: alter, exchange, transform. Transformed/changed to what? For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

The 1 Thessalonians 4 text says nothing at all about those who would be alive at Christ's return being "translated" at that time into glorified bodies at Christ's return. Neither does 1 Corinthians 15 say anything at all about a translation-type change for the bodies of those who have not yet died when Christ returns. This is a common presumption which has no basis in scripture whatever. All must die that one appointed time. No one gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process that one time.

1 Thess 4:13-17 But we do not want you to be uninformed brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as other do who have no hope. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

How is it a person can read the clear words of Scripture and turn around and deny it with their doctrine?

This text says absolutely nothing about those who hadn't died yet receiving that change to the incorruptible and immortal state.

It says exactly that. It could not be more clear.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not according to Scripture. In 1 Cor 15:51 Paul is talking about those who are alive when He returns.

No, Paul didn't write that. Paul went into detail in 1 Cor. 15:51-55 about how that change to the immortal and incorruptible condition would be performed for the DEAD bodies of believers. "DEATH" would have no sting and "THE GRAVE" would have no victory when that change occurred in the resurrection process - a change which would take place in the twinkling of an eye. You are presuming that there would be exceptions to people having to pass through the physical death process, when the language in 1 Cor. 15:51 says nothing of the sort.

Will the believers who are alive when Jesus returns die?

ALL who are "in Adam" are appointed to die the one time, according to scripture. Even those who have not yet died physically when Christ returns in our future. You can't re-write the original condemnation for the physical death of all humankind which Adam brought upon all of us by that single act of disobedience. The first lie told to mankind was that "Ye shall not surely die".

How is it a person can read the clear words of Scripture and turn around and deny it with their doctrine?

That is the question I have for you. Your interpretation of these passages forces scripture to contradict itself. You aren't considering the basis for why Paul was writing these words of encouragement for the Thessalonian believers. The faith of many of them at that time was being overthrown by the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus, who had been teaching that the resurrection was past already. In one sense, these two men were correct, because there were still bodily-resurrected saints living among the church who had been raised from the dead on the same day as Christ's resurrection. That "first resurrection" event for the Matthew 27:52-53 saints truly had already happened, most definitely.

What was in error was that these two men had been teaching that there would not be another second resurrection event to follow that past "First resurrection". THAT was the error Paul was addressing in 1 Thess. 4. Paul was teaching that those saints among them who had already been made "alive" by the resurrection process ("we who are alive..."), but who had still "remained" on the earth were not the only ones who would participate in a bodily resurrection. At Christ's return, the righteous dead would rise from their graves first, and only then would the other "alive" and "remaining" already-resurrected saints follow them to heaven in a rapture, to meet Christ together in the air.

It says exactly that. It could not be more clear.

No, you are presuming that a translation-type change of the living takes place in 1 Thess. 4. It doesn't. You are reading that into the passage, but it's not there.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

How soon?

Please be specific, or at least as specific as you feel comfortable being. When you use the word "soon" in the statement "Christ is coming soon!" what do you mean by "soon"? Is soon a week from now? A month from now? A year from now? Two or three years, or maybe a decade from today? How about a century from now? When you use the word "soon," are we to understand that to mean Jesus is coming a century from now, and that is what you mean when using the word "soon"?

Again, please be as specific as you feel comfortable being. I am not asking you to set a specific date. I am asking you to explain your use of the word "soon."

Or is the title intended to be read rhetorically, perhaps with a hint of mockery?

The Olivet Prophecy and the parable of the fig tree give me a frame of reference for “soon.”

Lu

 

[Josheb]

The Olivet Prophecy and the parable of the fig tree give me a frame of reference for “soon.”

Lu

I did not ask what the Olivet Prophecy or the parable of the fig tree give (both of which are radically misinterpreted by Dispensational Premillennialism). I asked what you mean when using the word "soon." I could ask this same exact question of every poster in this thread and possibly get 5 (or more) different answers. You used the word "soon."
.

Christ is coming soon!

Great. How soon? What do you mean by soon? Do you mean two-thousand-years-from-now soon? Do you mean next-month soon? The question is valid, very op-relevant, and directly and specifically related to the title of this thread. Is Jesus coming next week, next month, next year, next decade, next score of years, next century, next millennium?

What, specifically, do you mean by soon?

 

[ShepherdsPie]

I did not ask what the Olivet Prophecy or the parable of the fig tree give (both of which are radically misinterpreted by Dispensational Premillennialism). I asked what you mean when using the word "soon." I could ask this same exact question of every poster in this thread and possibly get 5 (or more) different answers. You used the word "soon."
.

Great. How soon? What do you mean by soon? Do you mean two-thousand-years-from-now soon? Do you mean next-month soon? The question is valid, very op-relevant, and directly and specifically related to the title of this thread. Is Jesus coming next week, next month, next year, next decade, next score of years, next century, next millennium?

What, specifically, do you mean by soon?

I just told you, Mr. Josh. Do you understand the parable of the fig tree? Apparently not.

 

[Josheb]

I just told you, Mr. Josh. Do you understand the parable of the fig tree? Apparently not.

No, you said,

The Olivet Prophecy and the parable of the fig tree give me a frame of reference for “soon.”

Lu

That does not tell me what the texts "give" you. It's a vague response that does not further the discussion one word.

What does the word "soon" mean to you? What kind of specific timeframe are you thinking applies to your use of that word? If those texts inform your answer, then explain that, please, and please be specific.​

 

[Alive]

Josheb’s question is a reasonable,one and some answer is called for, IMO.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

No, you said,

​

​

​

That does not tell me what the texts "give" you. It's a vague response that does not further the discussion one word.​

​

What does the word "soon" mean to you? What kind of specific timeframe are you thinking applies to your use of that word? If those texts inform your answer, then explain that, please, and please be specific.​

So basically, you want me to explain the Olivet Prophecy and the parable of the fig tree?

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Josheb’s question is a reasonable,one and some answer is called for, IMO.

I have answered him.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

What is your contribution, @Alive?

 

[Josheb]

No, you have not.

A vague appeal to two passages that were not exegeted was posted and that post was posted in avoidance of defining the word as YOU used it in the title.

So basically, you want me to explain the Olivet Prophecy and the parable of the fig tree?

No, I want you to explain what YOU mean when YOU use the word "soon." What does the word "soon" mean?