The parable of the fig tree and "this generation"

[eclipseEventSigns]

This is in response to the OP. The fig tree and "summer" in Matt 24:32

When studying the Greek text, the original meaning does not become clear. What is missing is the Galilean Aramaic idiom of "summer". The word can mean "fig gatherer".

The Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon

A proper translation is:
32 "So then learn the allegory from the fig tree: immediately when it has soft branches and sprouts leaves, you know that the fig gatherer will be coming"

This interpretation is very clear because in the previous verse Jesus has just spoken about gathering the chosen ones.
"And he will send his angels with a great trumpet and they will collect together his elect from the four winds, from one extremity of heaven to the other." [Matt 24:31 (Murdock)]

Who are these chosen ones? A few verses later, in verse 34, Jesus specifically ties them to belonging to the people group or nation that he has been talking about in this whole section - the Jewish people.

Word '$rbt)'

Back in verses 21 and 22, Jesus states that this Jewish people will face a time of persecution that will be so bad that they will face extinction. However, because God promised that His chosen nation will never die out, the time of persecution will be shortened. He promises that there will be a remnant saved.

The fig tree is used in Scripture as an allegory of the people of Israel. Jesus equates himself with the fig gatherer. The one who will come and gather the chosen out of the Jewish people who acknowledge him as their Messiah. He is answering the specific questions that the disciples asked of him at the beginning of the passage.

 

[TMSO]

You are posting as if any of the Beasts will be appearing in our future. They have all gone out of existence. This Tyrian shekel "mark" of the Beast requirement was gotten rid of long ago in AD 66 when the Scarlet Beast came to existence again in Israel. The Zealots started minting their own currency at that time instead of the Tyrian shekel, since the rebellion they started wanted nothing to do with giving any kind of homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast.

They are coming in the future. The Tyrian shekel was not a stamp, which is the generally accepted understanding of what the mark was. I don't know why you are adding all of this to the book of Revelation, when it is clear that Revelation is future. It speaks of the "complete" end. You claim it does not. The disciples were clear in their question to Jesus in Matthew 24, and Jesus was clear in His answer. You, however, don't accept it. The disciples asked about the "complete" end, and Jesus told them. You, however, state this is 70AD. If that was the "complete" end of everything, why are we still here?

And you are totally missing the significance of Revelation 13:2's features of the lion, bear, and leopard all being present in that final Sea Beast of Revelation 13. These were Daniel's representations of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms respectively; with the power behind all of these former kingdoms subsumed into the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast operating in John's days.

So you have ditched the idea that it is a satanic amalgamation of Daniel? Note it is Satan that gives this beast his power. (Except that according to you, Satan was too busy being tied up during the millennium, which is when this happens. Since his power is sealed (read Rev 20 again), what power does he have to give to this beast?

Christ had already told His Jewish audience that if they read Daniel, they would understand what He was talking about. So yes, the Daniel scriptures were being heavily considered in those days. All the people, even the Samaritan woman at the well, knew that Daniel's "Messiah the Prince" was coming in their time, and in the AD 30 year, which is why the Jewish religious leaders sent a delegation to John the Baptist around that year to ask if he were that coming Messiah or the prophet preceding that Messiah the Prince. Eventually the Daniel scriptures were rejected because they pointed unmistakably to Christ Jesus as the fulfillment of Daniel's predictions.

The disciples were still operating under the mistaken impression that Messiah the Prince would be in control of a physical kingdom of ethnic, national Israel. God did intend to have the Scarlet Beast of an independent kingdom of Israel arise in AD 66, soon after John wrote Revelation 17:8, but this was not to be the immediate concern of the disciples in Acts 1. They had other priorities of establishing the spiritual kingdom of God in the early church beginning at Pentecost in AD 33.

They weren't mistaken. Did Jesus say He wasn't going to restore the kingdom to Israel? No, He said it wasn't for the disciples to know the times and seasons established by the Father. This obviously means that the kingdom is going to be restored to Israel in the Father's time.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The fig tree is used in Scripture as an allegory of the people of Israel. Jesus equates himself with the fig gatherer.

If this is so, then we must also give consideration to Christ cursing the fig tree which had no fruit on it. "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever" Christ said of this fruitless fig tree.

 

[3 Resurrections]

They are coming in the future. The Tyrian shekel was not a stamp, which is the generally accepted understanding of what the mark was. I don't know why you are adding all of this to the book of Revelation, when it is clear that Revelation is future. It speaks of the "complete" end. You claim it does not.

Of course it was the complete end coming in John's immediate future - the "shattering of the power of the holy people" which Daniel wrote about, and "the end of all things" which Peter said was then "at hand". But it was not the end of all the multiple ages of human history, concerning which ages Paul wrote were then coming.

And please don't use the phrase "the generally accepted understanding" as proof of anything. We are not to lean on our own understanding. The "adding" to Revelation about the mark is your presuming that ink is involved in producing this stamped mark. That's not necessary because ink is never mentioned. What do you think happens when coins are struck? An image is stamped upon that blank disc.

So you have ditched the idea that it is a satanic amalgamation of Daniel? Note it is Satan that gives this beast his power. (Except that according to you, Satan was too busy being tied up during the millennium, which is when this happens. Since his power is sealed (read Rev 20 again), what power does he have to give to this beast?

You are misreading me again. If you read my comments carefully, I mentioned the power behind all those former pagan empires, and I meant the power of the demonic. The only thing of Satan that was bound during those thousand years was his ability to deceive the nations. That's it, and that's all. This binding did not result in Satan going out of existence, and did not even limit his ability to move about. Neither was Satan's usual practice of lying and attempting to deceive curtailed. The only thing that was bound in Revelation 20 was Satan's success at deceiving the nations. He wouldn't have any success in his deceptive efforts. Satan was able to give his power and his throne in the city of Pergamos to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast (which transfer of that Pergamos throne to Rome happened in 133 BC), but this is not related at all to Satan being able to deceive the nations at that time. If I give you something, this does not mean I have succeeded in getting you to believe a lie.

They weren't mistaken. Did Jesus say He wasn't going to restore the kingdom to Israel? No, He said it wasn't for the disciples to know the times and seasons established by the Father. This obviously means that the kingdom is going to be restored to Israel in the Father's time.

And the physical kingdom of Israel did come into existence again with the Zealot rebellion in AD 66. This was the Scarlet Beast which was "about to arise" in John's days, and was soon after to "go into destruction". That independent kingdom of Israel did get destroyed in AD 70 as a result of internecine warfare and the Roman armies coming to finish off the independent nation of Israel.

But the kingdom which Christ established would last forever, as the "stone" kingdom which crushed all the other parts of Daniel's image with one blow back in AD 70. The disciples were only thinking of a physical carnal kingdom for a physical Israel, and this was not the one which Christ intended to establish forever. In this, the disciples were mistaken.

 

[TMSO]

Of course it was the complete end coming in John's immediate future - the "shattering of the power of the holy people" which Daniel wrote about, and "the end of all things" which Peter said was then "at hand". But it was not the end of all the multiple ages of human history, concerning which ages Paul wrote were then coming.

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

And please don't use the phrase "the generally accepted understanding" as proof of anything. We are not to lean on our own understanding. The "adding" to Revelation about the mark is your presuming that ink is involved in producing this stamped mark. That's not necessary because ink is never mentioned. What do you think happens when coins are struck? An image is stamped upon that blank disc.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

You are misreading me again. If you read my comments carefully, I mentioned the power behind all those former pagan empires, and I meant the power of the demonic. The only thing of Satan that was bound during those thousand years was his ability to deceive the nations. That's it, and that's all. This binding did not result in Satan going out of existence, and did not even limit his ability to move about.

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it. Satan has not been bound yet. Who do you think was behind the deceiving of Israel to kill Jesus?

Neither was Satan's usual practice of lying and attempting to deceive curtailed.

Of that you have no proof.

The only thing that was bound in Revelation 20 was Satan's success at deceiving the nations. He wouldn't have any success in his deceptive efforts. Satan was able to give his power and his throne in the city of Pergamos to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast (which transfer of that Pergamos throne to Rome happened in 133 BC), but this is not related at all to Satan being able to deceive the nations at that time. If I give you something, this does not mean I have succeeded in getting you to believe a lie.

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

What caused all the people to follow? verse three. It appears that he died, and he came back to life. (Remember, the beast is a person.) "18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." It can't be Nebuchadnezzar, as he is only 1/3 of the vision of Daniel. This beast is satanic because it is satan's power. (The dragon gave him power, authority, etc.)

And the physical kingdom of Israel did come into existence again with the Zealot rebellion in AD 66. This was the Scarlet Beast which was "about to arise" in John's days, and was soon after to "go into destruction". That independent kingdom of Israel did get destroyed in AD 70 as a result of internecine warfare and the Roman armies coming to finish off the independent nation of Israel.

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

But the kingdom which Christ established would last forever, as the "stone" kingdom which crushed all the other parts of Daniel's image with one blow back in AD 70. The disciples were only thinking of a physical carnal kingdom for a physical Israel, and this was not the one which Christ intended to establish forever. In this, the disciples were mistaken.

While the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom as promised by prophecy, they also understood that there was a complete end coming, after the establishment of this kingdom, of which Jesus said it isn't for them to know the times or seasons established by the Father. Jesus never said no to a physical kingdom. He had two direct opportunities. Matthew 24, and Acts 1. And yes, it was not intended to be a forever kingdom, for at the end is when Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, as it states in I Corinthians 15.

 

[EarlyActs]

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it. Satan has not been bound yet. Who do you think was behind the deceiving of Israel to kill Jesus?

Of that you have no proof.

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

What caused all the people to follow? verse three. It appears that he died, and he came back to life. (Remember, the beast is a person.) "18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." It can't be Nebuchadnezzar, as he is only 1/3 of the vision of Daniel. This beast is satanic because it is satan's power. (The dragon gave him power, authority, etc.)

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

While the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom as promised by prophecy, they also understood that there was a complete end coming, after the establishment of this kingdom, of which Jesus said it isn't for them to know the times or seasons established by the Father. Jesus never said no to a physical kingdom. He had two direct opportunities. Matthew 24, and Acts 1. And yes, it was not intended to be a forever kingdom, for at the end is when Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, as it states in I Corinthians 15.

returned to the Father
I don't see where that ends it. There is a parable about this I believe.

 

[EarlyActs]

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it. Satan has not been bound yet. Who do you think was behind the deceiving of Israel to kill Jesus?

Of that you have no proof.

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

What caused all the people to follow? verse three. It appears that he died, and he came back to life. (Remember, the beast is a person.) "18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." It can't be Nebuchadnezzar, as he is only 1/3 of the vision of Daniel. This beast is satanic because it is satan's power. (The dragon gave him power, authority, etc.)

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

While the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom as promised by prophecy, they also understood that there was a complete end coming, after the establishment of this kingdom, of which Jesus said it isn't for them to know the times or seasons established by the Father. Jesus never said no to a physical kingdom. He had two direct opportunities. Matthew 24, and Acts 1. And yes, it was not intended to be a forever kingdom, for at the end is when Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, as it states in I Corinthians 15.

never said no to a physical kingdom

By affirming the mission of God and the resurrection enthronement, you could say he did. To be physical, it would be one of the many human attempts like the precious-metal statue of Neb in Daniel. That's what the zealots wanted, but Christians were to walk in the light, Jn 12:34. The Kingdom of God came as an imperative and is not made by human hands...

It is quite clear from the NT, that the concept of a 'government' is meant to be transformed because the individuals in it have new hearts from God. This why the Christians were and were not a challenge to Rome.

 

[EarlyActs]

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it. Satan has not been bound yet. Who do you think was behind the deceiving of Israel to kill Jesus?

Of that you have no proof.

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

What caused all the people to follow? verse three. It appears that he died, and he came back to life. (Remember, the beast is a person.) "18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." It can't be Nebuchadnezzar, as he is only 1/3 of the vision of Daniel. This beast is satanic because it is satan's power. (The dragon gave him power, authority, etc.)

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

While the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom as promised by prophecy, they also understood that there was a complete end coming, after the establishment of this kingdom, of which Jesus said it isn't for them to know the times or seasons established by the Father. Jesus never said no to a physical kingdom. He had two direct opportunities. Matthew 24, and Acts 1. And yes, it was not intended to be a forever kingdom, for at the end is when Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, as it states in I Corinthians 15.

I'm not sure what history you were reading.
There was not independence in the Roman era until the outbreak of 66 after the Florus' scandal in Caesarea (helping himself to temple funds). It was ill-advised.

Herod was a half-Jew daring to take the horrid position, which he practiced with a high degree of control and paranoia. Kind of hard to form a connection to being a king of Israel. It was so worthless, that the apostles asked in Acts 1 if the kingdom would be restored. Why ask that if it was working? This is what makes the news of Christ's kingdom exciting while unconventional, Lk 1-2. There was a King, yet there was no open violence against Rome. Very intriguing!

 

[EarlyActs]

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it. Satan has not been bound yet. Who do you think was behind the deceiving of Israel to kill Jesus?

Of that you have no proof.

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

What caused all the people to follow? verse three. It appears that he died, and he came back to life. (Remember, the beast is a person.) "18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." It can't be Nebuchadnezzar, as he is only 1/3 of the vision of Daniel. This beast is satanic because it is satan's power. (The dragon gave him power, authority, etc.)

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

While the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom as promised by prophecy, they also understood that there was a complete end coming, after the establishment of this kingdom, of which Jesus said it isn't for them to know the times or seasons established by the Father. Jesus never said no to a physical kingdom. He had two direct opportunities. Matthew 24, and Acts 1. And yes, it was not intended to be a forever kingdom, for at the end is when Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, as it states in I Corinthians 15.

the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom
You are aware this was a mistake, right? It gets partly corrected through regular doses of Christ's teaching. The servant will be the greatest. Some of the leaders will die horribly, etc.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So complete end doesn't mean complete end? The language is clear. COMPLETE end. There is no wiggle room to say this isn't the complete end.

It's the complete end of the power of Daniel people being "shattered", and the "weak and beggarly elements" of the OC physical temple system being completely burned up. As well as the complete destruction of the Satanic realm.

I guess that is because your understanding is better than everyone else's. Appeal to self? Who said anything about ink? You do know that doesn't change the definition of the word, right? It came to mean stamp/mark. An impression. However, it bears the name of the beast that the person is showing alliance to. You already said that those necessary items (name of beast/man, number of his name) were not present on the coin. Therefore this is not it.

Scripture never says that the name of the beast and its number is on the mark. These are all separate things considered separately in Revelation 13:17: "... he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name."

So, the huge chain, being sealed, and then being shut in the bottomless pit makes Satan omnipresent? Okay. Got it

I never wrote that Satan was omnipresent. Only God has t hat capability.

Of that you have no proof.

Yes, I do have proof that scripture never writes that Satan would cease attempting to deceive the nations during the thousand years. Such a thing is never stated. You are trying to make the passage about the conditions of the Revelation 20 millennium include more than it actually says. This is adding to scripture. The only terms of the Revelation 20 millennium is that Satan's ability to deceive the nations was bound for a thousand years. That's it, and that's all. Christ reigned with the saints during that thousand years, but guess what? Christ being God has always reigned over this creation, both before and after that thousand-year hiatus of Satan's ability to deceive the nations . The Lord's reign is never limited to a thousand-year period alone, after which He loses that reign. God's throne is "of old" and is "everlasting".

Except that is all the sea beast is about. A lie. The whole world worships him. "3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”" That is deceit of the nations in action. Why would I say that? " 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

A lie from Satan was not necessary for people to give homage to the Sea Beast. In its fallen state, "The heart is deceitful above all things" and is perfectly capable of deceiving itself with no Satanic help whatever.

I'm not sure what history you were reading. Israel was already in existence under the Romans, and did not end until 70AD. They even had kings, of which Herod was one.

The history records tell us that the independent kingdom of Israel (the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness) which once "WAS" able to exist for almost 80 years after the Maccabean victories was lost and then "IS NOT" in existence once Pompey put Israel under tribute to Rome in 63 BC, with the Idumean client king Herod as head of that conquered nation. The nation existed, but only as the subordinate "miry clay" element in Daniel's statue, mixed with the Roman "iron", which never blended together very well and was very unstable. When the Zealot rebellion cast off that Roman governance in AD 66, the Scarlet Beast once more "IS" in existence - but would soon go into destruction again after that in AD 70.

 

[TMSO]

returned to the Father
I don't see where that ends it. There is a parable about this I believe.

So you aren't even going to read the verse?

"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

SO, please explain why people are still dying and not going to heaven, if, since you say this is the past tense, then death must be completely destroyed. You will also notice that there is still rule, authority, and power on Earth, so again, it hasn't happened yet. It is still future.

 

[TMSO]

I'm not sure what history you were reading.
There was not independence in the Roman era until the outbreak of 66 after the Florus' scandal in Caesarea (helping himself to temple funds). It was ill-advised.

Herod was a half-Jew daring to take the horrid position, which he practiced with a high degree of control and paranoia. Kind of hard to form a connection to being a king of Israel. It was so worthless, that the apostles asked in Acts 1 if the kingdom would be restored. Why ask that if it was working? This is what makes the news of Christ's kingdom exciting while unconventional, Lk 1-2. There was a King, yet there was no open violence against Rome. Very intriguing!

So Acts 4 crumbles under the weight you placed on it.

Israel was the ONLY place in Rome, out of all the countries that they took over, where they could freely exercise their religion. Nowhere else in Rome was such rights given. The Jews still had some control over certain aspects of the country.

Why did the disciples ask in Acts 1 if the kingdom would be restored to Israel? They still saw Jesus as the Messiah. The role of the Messiah is to return the kingdom to Israel, and to rule over it. It goes back to their question in Matthew 24 where they asked when Jesus would be unveiled as the Messiah, and establish His kingdom. They were not asking when His second coming would be. They didn't know there would be a second coming. They were expecting that when Jesus was done doing what He was doing, He would be revealed in His full Messiahship, and would restore the kingdom to Israel. (And rule as King.) Hence the wording of their question. In Acts 1, they ask Him about it again, and all He tells them is, it isn't for them to know the times and seasons established by God. For what? In this case, the restoring of the kingdom to Israel.

 

[TMSO]

the disciples thought of a physical Messianic kingdom
You are aware this was a mistake, right? It gets partly corrected through regular doses of Christ's teaching. The servant will be the greatest. Some of the leaders will die horribly, etc.

The only thing the disciples were getting was that, it's not yet. Right up to Acts 1 when they ask again. And Jesus did not tell them there was no physical kingdom. He said it is not for them to know the times and seasons established by the Father. There was no no. There was a, you are going to have to wait, and it isn't for you to know the Father's business. Since when does a King tell the common people His business? There business is to do the bidding of their King, and that is it. Our's is not to question why, but to do and die, right? The restoral of the kingdom is in the future, and after that, the eternal kingdom and NHNE.

 

[TMSO]

It's the complete end of the power of Daniel people being "shattered", and the "weak and beggarly elements" of the OC physical temple system being completely burned up. As well as the complete destruction of the Satanic realm.

That isn't there. Haven't you learned anything about the literal fulfillment of prophecy? The dreams Joseph interpreted for the pharaoh was prophecy. As soon as the symbols were interpreted, one finds that the prophecy itself is VERY literal. Seven years of famine followed by seven bad years that consume the good years, and everyone forgets about the good years. (The sickly eat the fat, and look exactly the same afterwards.) Very literal and to the point. And then God repeats the prophecy, where all that changes are the symbols. Nothing else changed. And the interpretation is the same. It went from fat and sickly cows, to fat and sickly stalks of grain. I mean, even the visualization of the symbols were exactly the same. The whole book of Daniel is predictive prophecy where almost all of it has been fulfilled exactly as written. What does prophecy specifically state in regards to the rebuilding of Jerusalem? It tells us exactly WHO will do it. Cyrus. To the point that some people believe that the name was added at a later time, simply because there is no way. With Daniel, they claimed the book was written centuries later, after the events prophesied had occurred. Some teenager happened to stumble upon evidence that proved this to be false. It was written when it claims to have been written.

Scripture never says that the name of the beast and its number is on the mark. These are all separate things considered separately in Revelation 13:17: "... he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name."

17 and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (I like the YLT). So, you can have the mark, or you can have the name of the beast, or you can have the number of his name. If we look at it from your perspective, you don't need tyrian shekels if you have the name of the beast, or the number of his name. You can still buy or sell if you have these. Considering your perspective requires that one has to have to tyrian shekel to buy or sell, that means that the mark CAN'T be the tyrian shekel. If you understand the antichrist, then you may understand that this antichrist comes in three, just like God. The beast, his image, and his mark. The Son is the image of the Father, and of the same likeness. As such, the image is like an anti-son. The mark is supposed to mark ownership, as the Holy Spirit does for the believer. So, an anti-Holy Spirit. Where God is spirit, the antichrist and company are all physical. Imperfect. Human. hence the number of a man, 666. He will stand in the temple and proclaim himself to be God, but he is only just a man, a puppet of Satan.

, or


I never wrote that Satan was omnipresent. Only God has t hat capability.

So he is both in the bottomless pit, and other places around the world. Okay. Omnipresent.

Yes, I do have proof that scripture never writes that Satan would cease attempting to deceive the nations during the thousand years. Such a thing is never stated. You are trying to make the passage about the conditions of the Revelation 20 millennium include more than it actually says. This is adding to scripture. The only terms of the Revelation 20 millennium is that Satan's ability to deceive the nations was bound for a thousand years. That's it, and that's all. Christ reigned with the saints during that thousand years, but guess what? Christ being God has always reigned over this creation, both before and after that thousand-year hiatus of Satan's ability to deceive the nations . The Lord's reign is never limited to a thousand-year period alone, after which He loses that reign. God's throne is "of old" and is "everlasting".

Jesus doesn't lose that reign. His reign consummates at the end of the age into the NHNE. Paul says that Jesus gives the Kingdom back to the Father after He destroys the final enemy death. (Destroys, not simply make powerless for a group of people, but destroys.) At the consummation of the age. The end of everything. The destruction of the sin corrupted universe, and the brining in of the NHNE, uncorrupted by sin.

A lie from Satan was not necessary for people to give homage to the Sea Beast. In its fallen state, "The heart is deceitful above all things" and is perfectly capable of deceiving itself with no Satanic help whatever.

Which is why God says that Satan does it, because He didn't? He says it. Prophecy, as John says he is writing, is "Thus says the Lord". It is the word of God. I like the YLT:
"3 And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,
4 and they did bow before the dragon who did give authority to the beast, and they did bow before the beast, saying, `Who [is] like to the beast? who is able to war with it?'"
Who is the dragon? Satan.

"
11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the land, and it had two horns, like a lamb, and it was speaking as a dragon,
12 and all the authority of the first beast doth it do before it, and it maketh the land and those dwelling in it that they shall bow before the first beast, whose deadly stroke was healed,
13 and it doth great signs, that fire also it may make to come down from the heaven to the earth before men,
14 and it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live,
15 and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed.
16 And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,"

The history records tell us that the independent kingdom of Israel (the Scarlet Beast in the wilderness) which once "WAS" able to exist for almost 80 years after the Maccabean victories was lost and then "IS NOT" in existence once Pompey put Israel under tribute to Rome in 63 BC, with the Idumean client king Herod as head of that conquered nation. The nation existed, but only as the subordinate "miry clay" element in Daniel's statue, mixed with the Roman "iron", which never blended together very well and was very unstable. When the Zealot rebellion cast off that Roman governance in AD 66, the Scarlet Beast once more "IS" in existence - but would soon go into destruction again after that in AD 70.

Or you consider that Saddam Hussein actually did rebuild Babylon in the 1980s, and it could be a future restored Babylon if there is another caliphate. You can also consider that Saddam Hussein believed that he was Nebuchadnezzar reborn. There is a lot of things going on that you are not considering. WE have obviously not reached a consummation of the age, where everything comes to an end, and a different age begins. That would be the eternal age of the NHNE.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That isn't there. Haven't you learned anything about the literal fulfillment of prophecy?

But I AM talking about literal fulfillment of prophecy. In physical realities that changed in this world, turning it into the NHNE which we occupy today. When scripture predicted that at Christ's return He would "put down all power and authority", this was specifically the "power of the holy people" and the authority of the physical, OC Levitical priesthood and temple which had already been superseded by the NC and Christ's high priesthood These remnants of the OC were all physically destroyed by the end of the AD 70 period. Also the "Prince of the power of the air" was put down by his destruction. This totally changed the conditions in which the NC would be operating in this world, without any Satanic realm in it anymore.

I like the YLT:

Ditto here. Rather partial to it myself.

So he is both in the bottomless pit, and other places around the world. Okay. Omnipresent.

You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a particular location on a map, and it's not. It is a condition of restricted activity, the same non-functioning condition in which Christ's dead body remained for 3 days and 3 nights (as in Romans 10:7).

Jesus doesn't lose that reign. His reign consummates at the end of the age into the NHNE. Paul says that Jesus gives the Kingdom back to the Father after He destroys the final enemy death. (Destroys, not simply make powerless for a group of people, but destroys.) At the consummation of the age. The end of everything. The destruction of the sin corrupted universe, and the brining in of the NHNE, uncorrupted by sin.

Jesus's reign never "consummates". His reign is forever, as repeated often in scripture, and He never relinquishes that rule. Jesus "delivering up the Kingdom to God, even the Father" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is Christ delivering up the resurrected children of that kingdom to the Father in heaven. After all, this context IS discussing the chronological order of the resurrection events.

We are already in that NHNE, the way Isaiah described it and the way John did also in Revelation. Hebrews 12 wrote that God had NOW promised back then to shake both earth and the heavens also - at that time. As John described it, in the NHNE with the New Jerusalem in place, sinners are still present outside the open gates of that New Jerusalem whose walls are called "Salvation", and its gates "Praise". You are confusing the "end of all things" related to the OC with the other final resurrection and judgment at the close of fallen mankind's existence on this planet. These are two different "ends".

Or you consider that Saddam Hussein actually did rebuild Babylon in the 1980s, and it could be a future restored Babylon if there is another caliphate. You can also consider that Saddam Hussein believed that he was Nebuchadnezzar reborn.

This is immaterial to the content of Revelation prophecies and has no connection to them at all.

Where God is spirit, the antichrist and company are all physical. Imperfect. Human. hence the number of a man, 666. He will stand in the temple and proclaim himself to be God, but he is only just a man, a puppet of Satan.

The Antichrist individual which the Thessalonian believers knew about (as well as his restrainer) is long dead back in AD 66. He was not any of the three Beasts. You are conflating the two characters, which scripture never does.

 

[EarlyActs]

So you aren't even going to read the verse?

"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

SO, please explain why people are still dying and not going to heaven, if, since you say this is the past tense, then death must be completely destroyed. You will also notice that there is still rule, authority, and power on Earth, so again, it hasn't happened yet. It is still future.

As v25 says he is now reigning. It is an imperative reign, not one seen by outward signs. That is why it is not found on this earth future by any NT expository letters that I know of.

As the reformation said so carefully about the 2nd kingdom: it does not abolish earthly dominions, it envelopes them inside itself. Please see my book that handles civics with early Acts theology—THE ENTHRONED KINGDOM.

 

[EarlyActs]

So you aren't even going to read the verse?

"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

SO, please explain why people are still dying and not going to heaven, if, since you say this is the past tense, then death must be completely destroyed. You will also notice that there is still rule, authority, and power on Earth, so again, it hasn't happened yet. It is still future.

You see the same empirical demands you have that ask this demand a millennium on earth. That is very different from how the NT thinks. How did 2 P 3 miss what you are saying.

In John, Jesus said a couple times that to believe on him is to be transferred from death to life. And that even if he dies, he has eternal life.

Don’t forget to grasp Is 55 in Acts 13. The term oath to David is used again as in Acts 2 bc it has been turned over to Christ—already, he means. Like the Davidic reference in Amos 9 in Acts 15. It is already in action.

 

[TMSO]

But I AM talking about literal fulfillment of prophecy. In physical realities that changed in this world, turning it into the NHNE which we occupy today.

New Earth same as the old? It will be New Earth. When Jesus speaks of the burning up of the "works of the earth" He speaks of sin. The sin corrupted creation will be destroyed. God will have nothing to do with sin. The NHNE are untouched by sin. Uncorrupted. A reflection of the Creator.

When scripture predicted that at Christ's return He would "put down all power and authority", this was specifically the "power of the holy people" and the authority of the physical, OC Levitical priesthood and temple which had already been superseded by the NC and Christ's high priesthood

Um... no. It is all power and authority, as HE would be the power and authority. You are not talking about literal fulfillment of prophecy.

These remnants of the OC were all physically destroyed by the end of the AD 70 period. Also the "Prince of the power of the air" was put down by his destruction. This totally changed the conditions in which the NC would be operating in this world, without any Satanic realm in it anymore.

He is still here. Where do you think aliens come from. There are no such things as aliens. If you want to study aliens, study demonology and you can find out all about it.

Ditto here. Rather partial to it myself.

You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a particular location on a map, and it's not. It is a condition of restricted activity, the same non-functioning condition in which Christ's dead body remained for 3 days and 3 nights (as in Romans 10:7).

It is a literal place. It existed. It isn't on a map because it doesn't exist on the physical plane, just as demons exist in another dimension, but can affect our own. Just as hell exists, but not on the physical plane.

Jesus's reign never "consummates". His reign is forever, as repeated often in scripture, and He never relinquishes that rule. Jesus "delivering up the Kingdom to God, even the Father" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is Christ delivering up the resurrected children of that kingdom to the Father in heaven. After all, this context IS discussing the chronological order of the resurrection events.

How do we know? The rule that consummates is simply the restoring of the kingdom to Israel, not of creation. He fulfills the promises of God, and then that ends at the consummation of the age. (Which is not the consummation of eternity, but simply the consummation of creation/man/this plane of existence.) There is still the eternal kingdom, of which there is no end. The millennial kingdom is not the eternal kingdom, but simply the fulfillment of promises and prophecies. At the end of the millennium, all the promises are fulfilled, and the world is destroyed (with the works of the flesh (sin)), and a NHNE are brought in. This NHNE will be untarnished, uncorrupted. Jesus death on the cross did not purify creation. It only affected mankind.

We are already in that NHNE, the way Isaiah described it and the way John did also in Revelation. Hebrews 12 wrote that God had NOW promised back then to shake both earth and the heavens also - at that time. As John described it, in the NHNE with the New Jerusalem in place, sinners are still present outside the open gates of that New Jerusalem whose walls are called "Salvation", and its gates "Praise". You are confusing the "end of all things" related to the OC with the other final resurrection and judgment at the close of fallen mankind's existence on this planet. These are two different "ends".

You do understand that outside of the New Jerusalem is where those who are gnashing their teeth are located in the darkness, right? Never allowed into God's Kingdom.

This is immaterial to the content of Revelation prophecies and has no connection to them at all.

The Antichrist individual which the Thessalonian believers knew about (as well as his restrainer) is long dead back in AD 66. He was not any of the three Beasts. You are conflating the two characters, which scripture never does.

Nope. That is simply wrong. The Antichrist has yet to be unveiled. The Antichrist has yet to be destroyed. The Antichrist is the beast that came out of the abyss, which is the area of demonic power/activity. The Antichrist will literally be the embodiment of evil. (Some say, the devil will possess him and force the whole world to worship him and not God. And to worship him AS God. And he will get that for a short while, before Jesus destroys him and all who follow him.

 

[TMSO]

As v25 says he is now reigning. It is an imperative reign, not one seen by outward signs. That is why it is not found on this earth future by any NT expository letters that I know of.

That speaks of the millennium kingdom. He must reign until He puts His enemies under His feet, the last enemy being death. When do we see death destroyed? At the end of the millennium. When do we see His enemies as His footstool? The beginning of the millennium.

As the reformation said so carefully about the 2nd kingdom: it does not abolish earthly dominions, it envelopes them inside itself. Please see my book that handles civics with early Acts theology—THE ENTHRONED KINGDOM.

Again, there is the eternal kingdom, but there was a theocracy of Israel that was rejected, then a human royalty/kingdom, and at the millennium, the God-King Messiah will reign in a kingdom restored to Israel. This is to fulfill the promises of Old Testament prophecy. That which the disciples asked about, of which Jesus NEVER said no. This is not the eternal kingdom. When we reach the consummation of the age, it is all wrapped into the new, and into the eternal kingdom. Once the final enemy has been destroyed, and He returns the kingdom to the Father. (The creation)

 

[TMSO]

You see the same empirical demands you have that ask this demand a millennium on earth. That is very different from how the NT thinks. How did 2 P 3 miss what you are saying.

The same way you did. You didn't know. John saw it in a vision. He was there (in a way).

In John, Jesus said a couple times that to believe on him is to be transferred from death to life. And that even if he dies, he has eternal life.

Yes.

Don’t forget to grasp Is 55 in Acts 13. The term oath to David is used again as in Acts 2 bc it has been turned over to Christ—already, he means. Like the Davidic reference in Amos 9 in Acts 15. It is already in action.

Again, that wouldn't that mean that this kingdom of His (you say), with all its sin and decadence, is a direct reflection of Him as the ruler, even though it is clear that it is still a direct reflection of Satan, which means that he still has dominion? God has not ejected him yet. Jesus is sitting at the Father's right hand until... (I would say until He takes that scroll in hand, and beings the work of redeeming the creation, and taking back His inheritance.) I put forward that this is future still. Why? God still has an elect out there to save, and He isn't going to let them perish.