Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?

[Carbon]

Question for all

Can a man be saved without a priest?

Well Jesus is our priest, is he not?

 

[fastfredy0]

Well Jesus is our priest, is he not?

I don't think that's what @donadams meant by "Can a man be saved without a priest?" ... giggle ... but if I need a theological lawyer I'm hiring you

 

[Carbon]

I don't think that's what @donadams meant by "Can a man be saved without a priest?" ... giggle ... but if I need a theological lawyer I'm hiring you

The simple answer to the op is;

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—

 

[Bob Carabbio]

A person is saved after coming under conviction of their sinfulness, being revealed the Son as Savior and placing their faith in Christ Jesus. It is not necessary to know the doctrine of justification by faith alone, just that there is no salvation without faith in Jesus death for one's forgiveness.
Am I understanding the question?

Yup. Theology Saves NOBODY. Conviction of sin (the beginning of FAITH), repentance, and calling on God gets 'er done.

 

[fastfredy0]

The simple answer to the op is;

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—

I tend to agree. But then the question becomes: Believe WHAT about the Lord Jesus?
Faith saves. Faith requires content (something to believe). What must be believed? I have a theory that if you ask 10 born again people this question you will get 9 different (though somewhat similar?) answers.
... and then many (like the RCs) say you need to adds WORKS.

Faith is trust in the grace of God and not calculable. The content of faith is not reducible to an arithmetic addition of articles - Herman Bavinck

 

[Carbon]

I tend to agree. But then the question becomes: Believe WHAT about the Lord Jesus?
Faith saves. Faith requires content (something to believe). What must be believed? I have a theory that if you ask 10 born again people this question you will get 9 different (though somewhat similar?) answers.
... and then many (like the RCs) say you need to adds WORKS.

Faith is trust in the grace of God and not calculable. The content of faith is not reducible to an arithmetic addition of articles - Herman Bavinck

Genuine Faith is, knowledge, belief and trust.

 

[fastfredy0]

Genuine Faith is, knowledge, belief and trust.

Agreed ... I was only referring to what constitutes the content of faith .... trying to keep it simple .... giggle.
.... hmmm, so simple that a child can be saved yet most adults can't quantify it as evidenced by the fact of vast disagreement if you ask for a lawyerly definition.

 

[Red Baker]

But who but the regenerated will call on the name of the Lord?

Greetings Carbon~That's my very point! So, those who call on the name of the Lord would be saved in a practical sense from their errors.

The key to understand Romans 10:17 begins back in verse one.

Romans 10:1-4~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.​

Brethren.​

My heart’s desire~​

He passed from considering God’s sovereign choices to man’s response to the gospel (9:30-33). The Gentiles had faith in Christ that the Jews generally did not for their offence at Jesus Christ.

His heart’s desire should not be confused to be any different than his great labors (II Timothy 2:10). Paul endured all the things that he did for the elect’s sakes – he did not seek to add to the elect.

His purpose was to help them obtain gospel salvation (conversion) along with eternal glory. God guaranteed eternal glory through the surety Jesus Christ (Rom 8:28-39; John 10:26-29). Romans 10:1 is a popular verse Arminians use for proselytizing for heaven (Matt 23:15), because they always prefer a sound bite rather than find out the real sense of what Paul wrote.

It is impossible that Paul desired those without God’s mercy to will and run for it (9:15-16)! But Paul, and us as well, should labor and endure opposition to see them converted to the truth. Paul had certain confident expectation that every one of the elect would surely be saved (8:28-39), thus his heart’s desire must be for something other than eternal life for these children of God.

And prayer to God. Prayer to God, coupled with his heart’s desire, indicates a matter yet uncertain by God’s blessing.​

He did not pray for an Israel to be saved from the lake of fire to heaven’s glory for several reasons. There was no possibility or uncertainty at all regarding the glorification of the elect (8:28-39). He had argued in no uncertain terms that eternal glory was God’s sovereign choice (9:6-24). He had declared, illustrated, and proved sovereign election of God’s children in such terms that there was no room for doubt or uncertainty that they would be saved and the rest could not be. There is not the slightest possibility Paul prayed against the Potter’s will and works (9:20-24). How and why would he pray for vessels of wrath God was enduring until the day of judgment? How and why would he pray for those fitted to destruction and unable to believe the gospel? How and why would he pray against decrees of God just like those under the O.T. (9:25-29)? But he could and would pray for elect Israel to be saved from stumbling over Christ (9:31-33)!

Ordinary ministers pray for salvation not knowing God’s will, but this cannot be true of Paul. Paul knew God’s will intimately, especially in Jew-Gentile matters, and he had explained it. It is impossible he prayed contrary to God’s will he knew (II Cor 12:8-9; I Jn 5:14; Rom 8:27).

​

 

[Red Baker]

For Israel is.​

The Israel here must be the Israel identified thus far in Paul’s argument – the elect Israel of God. Think! Is the wise and careful apostle burdened and praying for those that were not Israel (9:6)? It is a travesty of Bible interpretation to ignore Paul’s work so far and make this national Israel. Regarding election and reprobation within national Israel, Paul had declared it (9:6), illustrated it (9:7-13), proved it (9:14-24), confirmed it (9:25-29), and applied it to the gospel (9:30-33). Having made the distinction, Paul would not have tried to save those God purposed not to save! Depending on which Israel you make this determines which salvation you will then have to use. From the start, Paul had identified an elect Israel distinct from national Israel as his argument (9:6). As shown there, the issue was one of salvation as the children of God, not national blessings. With such a clear distinction declared, illustrated, proven, confirmed, and applied, we honor it.

The following context of this verse proves it to be elect Israel as does the entire preceding context. He formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matt 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Ac 13:46; Gal 6:13; I Thes 2:14-16). This verse and our unusual interpretation and application are very important to chapters 10 and 11.

That they might be saved.​

The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor. God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24). Paul will use very similar language in the following chapter about the same persons (11:14), where again it can be easily discerned that he wrote of a salvation possibility, not a certainty. It is impossible Paul would desire or pray for a thing certain, especially eternal life for the elect. As we shall see, conversion is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God. We know the objects of Paul’s desire and prayer to be elect Israel, as proven earlier in this verse.

It was for elect Israelites that Paul endured all things for gospel conversion (II Timothy 2:10). Consider that Paul had once been like them – elect and zealous but ignorant of Jesus Christ. Or will you foolishly assume with most that Paul thought he could work faith in those Jews that Jesus said would not be moved even by a man coming back from the dead (Luke 16:31)?

The salvation here is conversion, which we call the practical phase of salvation through the gospel. The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification. Paul cannot in any sense seek to save those without mercy to will and run for mercy (9:15-16)! The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth. Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus – it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ.

However, the gospel conversion of His elect to the true knowledge of salvation varies greatly.

Paul had already spent a sizable portion of the previous chapters correcting Jewish legalism.

Paul further described in the verses that follow that they need salvation from ignorance to truth. Paul testified that elect Israel had a zeal of God but without correct knowledge for it (10:2). Their ignorance of God’s righteousness in Christ left them merely seeking for their own (10:3). With proper knowledge, they could learn that Jesus Christ fulfilled and ended the Law (10:4). Leaving the impossibility of justification by Law works, they could rest in Christ’s work (10:5).

The practical phase of salvation – conversion by the gospel – is missed by most all Bible readers. The gospel of Christ only benefits believers (1:16-17), and Paul sought this for elect Israel. Most foolishly assume that the word save in any form must refer to deliverance from hell fire, so they miss any distinction or difference from this one and only concept of salvation they see.

Yet the Bible has many references to salvation, which means deliverance, from things other than the lake of fire (Ps 34:6; 116:8; Jonah 2:9; Acts 2:40; II Tim 3:11; James 5:15; Jude 1:5). Gospel salvation is a very real phase of salvation beyond Christ’s legal work and the Spirit’s vital work and before final glorification (I Cor 15:2; I Tim 4:16; James 5:19-20; I Pet 3:21).

It is the gospel that brings us the glad tidings and glorious news of salvation with many benefits.

The gospel saves the elect from ignorance to truth by knowledge (II Tim 1:10; Eph 4:13-14). The gospel saves the elect to personal assurance of eternal life (I Thess 1:4-7; I John 5:13). The gospel saves the elect to knowing what God requires of them (Acts 10:6; I Cor 11:1-2). The gospel saves the elect to fellowship with God and men (I John 1:1-5; Phil 1:3-5; 2:1-2). The gospel saves the elect from God’s judgment for sin (Heb 12:6-8; I Cor 11:29-31; Rev 3:5). The gospel saves the elect to peace and soul rest (Matthew 11:28-30; Heb 4:7-11; Rom 15:13). The gospel saves the elect to prosperity and success in life (Prov 3:1-4; Ps 1:1-3; Matt 10:39).

Remember that Paul’s method of evangelism was to visit foreign synagogues to find God-fearers. At Thessalonica, Luke recorded Paul’s usual evangelistic approach in a new city (Acts 17:1-5). It was this approach that led to his first recorded sermon in Antioch of Pisidia (Acts 13:14-52). In these and other cities, the gospel of Jesus Christ made a severe division among the Jews. This verse and our unusual interpretation and application are very important to chapters 10 and 11.

​

 

[Red Baker]

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.​

For I bear them record.​

As in the previous verse and in his argument from the beginning of chapter nine, this is elect Israel. If we say national Israel, as most, what was Paul’s purpose to strongly distinguish two Israel’s? If we say national Israel, as most, then Paul credited spiritual virtue to depraved reprobates. If we say national Israel, as most, Paul ascribed godly honor to the Potter’s vessels of dishonor. If we say national Israel, as most, then they were capable of conversion, contrary to I Peter 2:8. Paul, an apostle, able to discern spirits, and with prophetic power, gave true witness of elect Israel.

That they have a zeal of God.​

Paul formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates. While some may have zeal for religion e.g. the prophets of Baal, this is not truly a zeal of God. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain zeal for ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matt 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Ac 13:46; Gal 6:13; I Thes 2:14-16). We reject that Paul here commended the hypocritical Jewish infatuation with temple worship. Why would Paul commend the hypocrisy Jesus had ripped over and over? Read Matthew 23. Why would Paul praise the zeal, if this were reprobate Israel? How would the argument follow? Paul’s argument is that this was God’s Israel, evidenced by zeal, but they needed knowledge.

This description is closely connected to Paul’s desire for their salvation, as he was once like them. Before Paul was converted on the road to Damascus, he had great zeal (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:6). Due to his ignorance (compare verse 3), he was very contrary to Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 26:9). God showed him mercy for his ignorant blaspheming and injurious persecution (I Tim 1:13). God counted Paul faithful before Damascus and chose him for apostle due to it (I Tim 1:12). Paul commended his pure conscience before and after conversion (Ac 23:1; 24:16; II Tim 1:3). Paul knew all about great zeal for God while ignorant of Jesus Christ and His finished work. Obviously, from the above points and others, Paul was an unconverted elect Israelite like these. Remember that Paul’s method of evangelism was to visit foreign synagogues to find God-fearers. At Thessalonica, Luke recorded Paul’s usual evangelistic approach in a new city (Acts 17:1-5). It was this approach that led to his first recorded sermon in Antioch of Pisidia (Acts 13:14-52). If there was not a synagogue in a city, then Paul would find prayers to Jehovah (Acts 16:13). In these and other cities, the gospel of Jesus Christ made a severe division among the Jews.

​

 

[Red Baker]

But not according to knowledge.​

The key issue here, stated clearly in verses 1-5, is elect Israel’s ignorance, or lack of knowledge.

There is nothing here at all about getting them elected, justified, or regenerated. God forbid! Conversion is the educational process to change from a state of ignorance to one of knowledge. The only thing Paul had to change was their knowledge, not their hearts, wills, or zeal. Get it! There is nothing here at all about getting them born again, quickened, regenerated, or renewed. The zeal of elect Israel was of God, but they directed it toward Moses’ Law and away from Christ. The purpose of the gospel is to bring knowledge of God to those ignorant of it, but it only benefits the elect (II Tim 1:10; 2:10; Titus 1:1-3; Eph 1:17; I Cor 1:18-24; II Cor 4:3-7; 10:4-6; II Pet 2:20). How many elect are there in other churches and denominations worshipping without knowledge? Similar to Jews but with a false Jesus are Roman Catholics with seven sacraments (Rev 18:4). Such elect are worshipping in bondage due to the fear of death through ignorance of the truth. Just like Galatian saints that fell from grace in knowledge, these did not know grace (Gal 5:4).

 

[donadams]

Of course it does, but that was a one-time-only sacrifice - not repeated blood and body sacrifices every time the Lord's Supper is celebrated in memory of that one-time-only sacrifice. It was the OT sacrifices that were repeated, year after year, which could never actually take away sins. The NT sacrifice of Christ's blood and body do not need to be repeated, because they were all-sufficient to do the job of taking away sin. We believing Christians now have a common union with each other in the Lord's Supper, as all having a vested interest in that one-time-only sacrifice. We are called the "body of Christ" because we are all "IN Christ" with His imputed righteousness covering us. The Lord's Supper conveys that unity we have with one another and with Christ because of His one-time-only sacrifice for us.

Where does scripture say Christ is a one time priest? Or it’s a one time sacrifice?

 

[donadams]

Well Jesus is our priest, is he not?

Yes and eternal priest. And high priest. And head of the church What do these tell you?

 

[donadams]

I don't think that's what @donadams meant by "Can a man be saved without a priest?" ... giggle ... but if I need a theological lawyer I'm hiring you

Are the apostles priests?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where does scripture say Christ is a one time priest? Or it’s a one time sacrifice?

It's a one-time-only sacrifice which Christ made. Neither scripture nor I have described Christ as a one-time priest. He is a deathless high priest after the order of Melchizedek which high priesthood "continueth ever" because Christ will never die again. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more: death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God" (Romans 6:9-10). If it was truly Christ's body and blood being re-sacrificed repeatedly during the Lord' Supper observances, Christ would have died again many, many, many billions of times since AD 33.

 

[donadams]

It's a one-time-only sacrifice which Christ made. Neither scripture nor I have described Christ as a one-time priest. He is a deathless high priest after the order of Melchizedek which high priesthood "continueth ever" because Christ will never die again. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more: death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God" (Romans 6:9-10). If it was truly Christ's body and blood being re-sacrificed repeatedly during the Lord' Supper observances, Christ would have died again many, many, many billions of times since AD 33.

And I never say d re-sacrificed!!!

He is eternal priest
The office or nature of a priest it to offer sacrifice

And there cannot be a high priest without low priests of the Same order

And since they are priests they must offer sacrifice mal 1:11

Not two sacrifices of Christ but one sacrifice offered eternally not re-sacrificed not dying and bleeding again and again

Thanks

 

[donadams]

It's a one-time-only sacrifice which Christ made. Neither scripture nor I have described Christ as a one-time priest. He is a deathless high priest after the order of Melchizedek which high priesthood "continueth ever" because Christ will never die again. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more: death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God" (Romans 6:9-10). If it was truly Christ's body and blood being re-sacrificed repeatedly during the Lord' Supper observances, Christ would have died again many, many, many billions of times since AD 33.

The Christian religion is Not only a doctrine to be believed but also a participation in the sacrifice of Christ, and also union with Christ the mediator of the covenant providing communion with God and His saints!

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church

 

[donadams]

Can one be saved without a priest?

 

[Red Baker]

How are you using the word ~ saved?

See post #5,6