Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?

[3 Resurrections]

Mal 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

This is not a great translation of this verse. Here is a better one below from the LXX. It describes the then-current situation in Malachi's days. God was accusing the Israelites of offering shoddy sacrifices and worship to Him in Jerusalem when compared to the acceptable offerings and worship being made elsewhere by the Gentiles in those days.

"...I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down thereof my name has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord Almighty. But ye profane it, in that ye say, The table of the Lord is polluted, and his meats set thereon are despised.. And ye said, These services are troublesome: therefore I have utterly rejected them with scorn, saith the Lord Almighty..." It was a disgrace to the Israelites that the Gentiles had been giving acceptable worship to God, and they had not.

But this Malachi 1:11 text is not speaking of incense, sacrifices, and offerings still being made today, since that OT covenant system with its continual offerings became outmoded and defunct with the introduction of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

Christ made one sacrifice of Himself once for all (not multiple times via a Eucharist sacrament), and no temple sacrifices by any priests needed to be offered to God after that single, one-time-only offering. That sprinkled blood of Christ is still on the mercy seat in heaven's temple, and provides a perpetual witness on our behalf.

 

[Arch Stanton]

But this Malachi 1:11 text is not speaking of incense, sacrifices, and offerings still being made today, since that OT covenant system with its continual offerings became outmoded and defunct with the introduction of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

“the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10–11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist. The Didache indeed actually applies the term thusia, or sacrifice, to the Eucharist. ND Kelly

 

[3 Resurrections]

Malachi’s prediction (1:10–11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist.

That Malachi 1:11 text was a statement of the situation which was currently in place when Malachi was written. The Gentiles were already at that time in every place offering a pure offering, in contrast to the Israelites who were not doing so. God was shaming His own people for the Gentiles giving Him more honor than the Israelites were at the time.

 

[Arch Stanton]

That Malachi 1:11 text was a statement of the situation which was currently in place when Malachi was written. The Gentiles were already at that time in every place offering a pure offering, in contrast to the Israelites who were not doing so. God was shaming His own people for the Gentiles giving Him more honor than the Israelites were at the time.

The Didache refers to the Eucharist as a thusia, the Greek term for sacrifice: “Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

 

[donadams]

This is not a great translation of this verse. Here is a better one below from the LXX. It describes the then-current situation in Malachi's days. God was accusing the Israelites of offering shoddy sacrifices and worship to Him in Jerusalem when compared to the acceptable offerings and worship being made elsewhere by the Gentiles in those days.

"...I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down thereof my name has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord Almighty. But ye profane it, in that ye say, The table of the Lord is polluted, and his meats set thereon are despised.. And ye said, These services are troublesome: therefore I have utterly rejected them with scorn, saith the Lord Almighty..." It was a disgrace to the Israelites that the Gentiles had been giving acceptable worship to God, and they had not.

But this Malachi 1:11 text is not speaking of incense, sacrifices, and offerings still being made today, since that OT covenant system with its continual offerings became outmoded and defunct with the introduction of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

Christ made one sacrifice of Himself once for all (not multiple times via a Eucharist sacrament), and no temple sacrifices by any priests needed to be offered to God after that single, one-time-only offering. That sprinkled blood of Christ is still on the mercy seat in heaven's temple, and provides a perpetual witness on our behalf.

Where did non-Christian gentiles (pagans) ever offer sacrifice to the God of our fathers?

There is only “one” sacrifice of Christ, offered eternally, not new sacrifice each time but one sacrifice, once bloody on the cross offered for all in the worship of the holy apostolic church!

And receiving the fruit the sacrifice the holy Eucharist the holy sacrament, Jesus Christ as He said: “behold I am with you unto the end” Matt 28:19

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What is the purpose of an altar in a temple but to offer sacrifice?

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 5:7 …For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Christ is Eternal priest:

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The office and nature of a priest is to offer sacrifice, so an eternal priest offers an eternal sacrifice!


Christ is High priest:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Low priests / priesthood:

There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.

The holy sacrifice of Christ:

Holy sacrifice of Christ is offered eternally, the office of a priest is to offer sacrifice, Christ is eternal priest so He offers an eternal sacrifice! Both by the high priest and the low priesthood.

once for all sacrifice of Christ:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

Jesus Christ at the last supper ordained the apostles as priests in the order of melchisedec, to offer His eternal sacrifice as he commanded them; do this in memory of me.

Do this in remembrance of me!

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Paul offered the holy sacrifice of Christ!
1 cor 11:23-30

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where did non-Christian gentiles (pagans) ever offer sacrifice to the God of our fathers?

If God said the Gentiles were then doing this everywhere back in the days Malachi was written, I am going to believe Him. The decree by the Persian king Darius had gone out to all people, nations, and languages that dwelled in the earth, saying, "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end." (Daniel 6:25-26). This was an OT reality when the sacrificial system was still the God-ordained manner at that time.

Of course, this Old Covenant sacrificial system was set aside under the change in the law with Christ as the Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. But all Christians as priests offer our bodies as a "living sacrifice". The Eucharist is not a repeated offering of Christ, since there is no need to repeat that "once-for-all" act. Christ's sprinkled blood on heaven's mercy seat has never ceased to exist. It is a constant witness remaining there on our behalf, so that we need not offer anything else that would offer a paltry competition with that supreme, once-for-all offering.

 

[donadams]

If God said the Gentiles were then doing this everywhere back in the days Malachi was written, I am going to believe Him. The decree by the Persian king Darius had gone out to all people, nations, and languages that dwelled in the earth, saying, "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end." (Daniel 6:25-26). This was an OT reality when the sacrificial system was still the God-ordained manner at that time.

Of course, this Old Covenant sacrificial system was set aside under the change in the law with Christ as the Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. But all Christians as priests offer our bodies as a "living sacrifice". The Eucharist is not a repeated offering of Christ, since there is no need to repeat that "once-for-all" act. Christ's sprinkled blood on heaven's mercy seat has never ceased to exist. It is a constant witness remaining there on our behalf, so that we need not offer anything else that would offer a paltry competition with that supreme, once-for-all offering.

It’s it the same offering or sacrifice not a new sacrifice each time

Who said it was in his time?
I thought Malachi was a prophet
Prophecy of the new covenant?

Thanks

 

[3 Resurrections]

It’s it the same offering or sacrifice not a new sacrifice each time

The Lord's supper remembrance is not an offering at all. It is meant to "SHOW the Lord's death till He come" - not to literally re-enact that same death over and over. That once-only sacrifice and offering got the job done. Not repetitions of the same offering over and over. Not necessary at all. And frankly, insulting to the One who made that inestimable, once-only offering.

Who said it was in his time?
I thought Malachi was a prophet
Prophecy of the new covenant?

God said those honors to Him were then being performed by the Gentiles. He gave that message to the prophet Malachi to pass on His rebuke to Israel for their ho-hum, sloppy worship. But certainly, Malachi also had things to say about the New Covenant, as did every single prophet who spoke, from creation onward, according to Peter in Acts 3:24.

 

[donadams]

The Lord's supper remembrance is not an offering at all. It is meant to "SHOW the Lord's death till He come" - not to literally re-enact that same death over and over. That once-only sacrifice and offering got the job done. Not repetitions of the same offering over and over. Not necessary at all. And frankly, insulting to the One who made that inestimable, once-only offering.


God said those honors to Him were then being performed by the Gentiles. He gave that message to the prophet Malachi to pass on His rebuke to Israel for their ho-hum, sloppy worship. But certainly, Malachi also had things to say about the New Covenant, as did every single prophet who spoke, from creation onward, according to Peter in Acts 3:24.

Why a temple and altar in heaven?
Why does Jesus offer after the resurrection?
Why does Paul offer it? 1 cor 11

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why a temple and altar in heaven?

Because God patterned the tabernacle and temple ceremonies on earth to mimic the original things that were in heaven, apparently.

Why does Jesus offer after the resurrection?

He doesn't. Once was enough. His sprinkled blood on heaven's mercy seat never disappeared. It is still there today, and does not need to be offered again.

Why does Paul offer it? 1 cor 11

Paul isn't offering anything in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul calls the Lord's supper a "remembrance" only - not a re-enactment of Christ's death. Like someone sending birthday cards to celebrate and remember someone's birth, year after year.

 

[donadams]

Because God patterned the tabernacle and temple ceremonies on earth to mimic the original things that were in heaven, apparently.


He doesn't. Once was enough. His sprinkled blood on heaven's mercy seat never disappeared. It is still there today, and does not need to be offered again.


Paul isn't offering anything in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul calls the Lord's supper a "remembrance" only - not a re-enactment of Christ's death. Like someone sending birthday cards to celebrate and remember someone's birth, year after year.

If there is a temple and altar in heaven then there must be a sacrifice

Heb 7:17 Jesus is eternal priest
The new covenant Passover sacrifice is eternal

Lk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

1 cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

“do this” offer the sacrifice

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Thanks

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Lord's supper remembrance is not an offering at all. It is meant to "SHOW the Lord's death till He come" - not to literally re-enact that same death over and over. That once-only sacrifice and offering got the job done. Not repetitions of the same offering over and over. Not necessary at all. And frankly, insulting to the One who made that inestimable, once-only offering.

The term “remembrance” used at the Last Supper in Greek is “anamnesis” which is only used four times in the New Testament and each refers to a sacrificial offering of both Old and New Covenant (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25, Heb 10:3). The Greek word for remembering someone or something in memorial is “mnemosunon” (Mat. 26:13, Mark 14:9, and Acts 10:4). Jesus commands his Apostles to do this “anamnesis” sacrificial action at the Last Supper and not merely a “mnemosunon” symbolic memorial action. This is demonstrated as being practiced by the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 11 and is also alluded to in Hebrews 13:10 when it speaks about Christians having an “altar”, which by definition is used for sacrificial offerings and not for “remembering” (mnemosunon) a previous sacrifice, in which they partake in (See also 1 Cor 10:16-17).

 

[3 Resurrections]

1 cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

“do this” offer the sacrifice

No, that was not a sacrifice being made at the original Lord's Supper. Christ was establishing a rite "in remembrance" only. Neither is it a sacrifice on any other occasion of the Lord's Supper since then. The one-and-only sacrifice was made at Christ's crucifixion, and the required sprinkling of Christ's blood on heaven's altar was made on the morning after Christ's resurrection when He "offered Himself without spot to God". This was the occasion when Christ had just been anointed our Great High Priest for all time; when He was given glory, dominion, and a kingdom, as in Daniel 7:14.

If there is a temple and altar in heaven then there must be a sacrifice

There was a sacrifice made. One time only required, as Hebrews emphasizes in multiple places. This was totally unlike former times when repeated animal sacrifices were being continually made, which could not really do the job of making an end of transgressions.

Heb 7:17 Jesus is eternal priest
The new covenant Passover sacrifice is eternal

I don't think you believe this in the same way scripture intends. The New Covenant Passover sacrifice has eternal benefits, but it is not repeatedly being offered eternally.

 

[donadams]

Because God patterned the tabernacle and temple ceremonies on earth to mimic the original things that were in heaven, apparently.


He doesn't. Once was enough. His sprinkled blood on heaven's mercy seat never disappeared. It is still there today, and does not need to be offered again.


Paul isn't offering anything in 1 Corinthians 11. Paul calls the Lord's supper a "remembrance" only - not a re-enactment of Christ's death. Like someone sending birthday cards to celebrate and remember someone's birth, year after year.

Before the resurrection

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

After the resurrection

Lk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?


And the context of this chapter is “sacrifice”!

Thanks

 

[3 Resurrections]

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The cup of the Lord's supper is the communion, or united fellowship we as believing Christians have in the shared benefits of the blood of Christ.

The bread of the Lord's supper is the communion , or united fellowship we as believing Christians have as being considered part of the body of Christ. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1 Corinthians 12:27).

Paul does not here call the cup and the bread the actual body and blood of the Lord being sacrificed again in the hands of those holding the cup and the bread. It is a remembrance only. Paul calls both by the title of "communion".

 

[donadams]

The cup of the Lord's supper is the communion, or united fellowship we as believing Christians have in the shared benefits of the blood of Christ.

The bread of the Lord's supper is the communion , or united fellowship we as believing Christians have as being considered part of the body of Christ. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1 Corinthians 12:27).

Paul does not here call the cup and the bread the actual body and blood of the Lord being sacrificed again in the hands of those holding the cup and the bread. It is a remembrance only. Paul calls both by the title of "communion".

Yes he does and that’s why people are dead!

 

[Red Baker]

To be born again means to be someone who practices the nature of God, which are fruits of the Spirit,

I forgot about this thread~Better late than never!

No sir, you are very wrong in your understanding of being born again! What you are describing would be a mature Christian walking in the Spirit, or, a believer striving to please God.

To be born again means that a person who was dead in trespasses and sin, now have the right, power, authority, to hear, see, and repent, and believe the word of God ~ whereas before they could not.

which is why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again (1 John 3:4), and why those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.

This is a true statement, but has not one thing to do with:

Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?

The answer to this question is yes, and no. Yes one can be saved from sin and condemnation, yet not saved in a practical sense with true knowledge of the gospel and its requirements on how to live for God. See post #6

The Son is the exact image of God's nature expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so someone can't be born again while having no knowledge of him.

Then sir, your bible knowledge is very limited, or, maybe I should say you have not learned how to rightly didivde the word of truth as of yet.

 

[donadams]

The cup of the Lord's supper is the communion, or united fellowship we as believing Christians have in the shared benefits of the blood of Christ.

The bread of the Lord's supper is the communion , or united fellowship we as believing Christians have as being considered part of the body of Christ. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1 Corinthians 12:27).

Paul does not here call the cup and the bread the actual body and blood of the Lord being sacrificed again in the hands of those holding the cup and the bread. It is a remembrance only. Paul calls both by the title of "communion".

The blood of Christ has nothing to do with the sacrifice of Christ’s life unto death?

 

[3 Resurrections]

The blood of Christ has nothing to do with the sacrifice of Christ’s life unto death?

Of course it does, but that was a one-time-only sacrifice - not repeated blood and body sacrifices every time the Lord's Supper is celebrated in memory of that one-time-only sacrifice. It was the OT sacrifices that were repeated, year after year, which could never actually take away sins. The NT sacrifice of Christ's blood and body do not need to be repeated, because they were all-sufficient to do the job of taking away sin. We believing Christians now have a common union with each other in the Lord's Supper, as all having a vested interest in that one-time-only sacrifice. We are called the "body of Christ" because we are all "IN Christ" with His imputed righteousness covering us. The Lord's Supper conveys that unity we have with one another and with Christ because of His one-time-only sacrifice for us.

 

[Carbon]

I would not have posted it if it could not be supported with the scriptures.

Question for you: "In what sense is Paul using the word saved in Romans 10:13?"

I can assure you saved is not being used in a regenerating sense.

But who but the regenerated will call on the name of the Lord?