Are you born again ? Then here you are...

[makesends]

SImple: I wouldn't had DIED because of ANYTHING ADAM DID. I would have died for MY OWN SIN.

So would you have, unless you became born again.

There were TWO THINGS cursed at the "Fall" the serpent, anf the EARTH / Environment. The humans were not cursed, but had to suffer the consequences of their actions, and for their sakes, begin to WORK for their physical survival.

Yet, it says that all men are condemned by the sin of the one man, (Adam). Whether or not the humans were or were not cursed is irrelevant. God imputed Adam's sin to all men.

I.e. you are moving the goalposts to bring up the range of effects of the curse.

 

[fastfredy0]

..... and here we go ...

 

[fastfredy0]

it says that all men are condemned by the sin of the one man, (Adam).

... .aside: I wonder how things would have gone if Eve ate the fruit and Adam didn't?
... aside2: Adam went longer than Eve before sinning ... does that have any significance?

... continues chewing

 

[Eleanor]

Also many other verses like Mk 16:16
No one is saved without faith and baptism

Paul does not teach salvation by “faith alone”!

Then you don't understand the plain text of Eph 2:8-9.

Salvation is a free gift of God

And there you have it, free gift, no performance/work required.
The work of obedience follows the free gift of salvation, obedience is neither the cause nor the means of God's remission of our sin, which is salvation (from the wrath of God on our sin).

but that does not mean we don’t have to cooperate and engage our intellect and will in perpetual believing and submitting to Christ and His church and suffering for His sake! But never “faith alone”!

You are confusing God's remission of our condemning sin (through faith which saves us from God's wrath, Ro 5:9) with the Christian life.

 

[Eleanor]

SImple: I wouldn't had DIED because of ANYTHING ADAM DID. I would have died for MY OWN SIN.

You died as much by what Adam did as you are born again by what Christ did. (Ro 5:18-19).

So would you have, unless you became born again.

There were TWO THINGS cursed at the "Fall" the serpent, anf the EARTH / Environment. The humans were not cursed, but had to suffer the consequences of their actions, and for their sakes, begin to WORK for their physical survival.

Adam's sin is imputed to those born of Adam just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those born of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[makesends]

“Faith alone”
“accept Christ alone”
“Trust Christ alone”
And other fundamentalist traditions are not in scripture

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you say you can enter on your own by faith alone?
Thanks

I don't suppose you are unaware that the faith is FAITH IN SOMETHING.

You are arguing the semantics of language. FAITH ALONE is a reference to the fact that only through faith can one be saved. If access to the cross is made through means apart from faith, it is not salvation. Nobody is claiming that the cross is not necessary, nor that belief is unnecessary, nor that works do not affirm.

And I would really like to know where you come up with the idea that I think (nevermind say) that I can do anything "on my own", as you put it.
"How can you say you can enter on your own by faith alone?" — I really don't like being misrepresented. It's a bit like the saying about 'assuming'— making both you and me look bad. But what is remarkable about you adding that little tidbit: It makes it appear that your argument without it is weak!

 

[donadams]

... gets out his .... this could go on forever.

Jn 3:5 what’s the water for?
Thanks

Don’t forget the butter and a cold drink too! Hot dog, junior mints!

Did I forget anything?

 

[fastfredy0]

Jn 3:5 what’s the water for?
Thanks

Amniotic fluid?

Don’t forget the butter and a cold drink too! Hot dog, junior mints!

Now you're talking. Yummy.

@makesends and @Eleanor are much smarter than I ... I will let them represent me from here on while I munch and make notes.

 

[donadams]

Your comments demonstrate you do not understand the doctrine of Faith Alone.

When one is born again the Spirit gives one the gift of faith, said gift alone being the demonstration that one is born again. So we are saved by the gift of faith alone but not a faith that is alone meaning faith causes one to trust/believe in God and results in good works actuated by the Spirit in us. Said works do not save us, but are a demonstration of regeneration and the gift of faith.


Galatians is all about Faith Alone. In summary it says:

• You are saved by faith
• You are not saved by works
• If you believe you are saved by works then that is another gospel and Paul's gospel is useless to you; rather, you must be saved by perfect obedience to the law if you take credit for any work being part of being born again.

So, if one believes the cause of their salvation is any work (like water baptism, circumcision, self-actuated faith?) then they are severed from Christ for they don't believe they are saved by Faith Alone. (Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law [any work]; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].)

Good luck brought on by your good works and teaming up with Christ ... or as some say: "Blessed predestination"

Not works alone

But in Christ by faith and baptism united to the mediator of the covenant (not a Bible study) in the state of sanctify grace (not covered but still unclean) are works are meritorious

Matt 5:7 the merciful obtain mercy
Mat 6:14-15 forgiveness obtains forgiveness

Prayer, alms, fasting, sacraments, and called to penance or suffering
Phil 1:29 col 1:24-29
Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

Not works alone

It's not about works alone, it's about faith apart from faith's own necessary works.

 

[fastfredy0]

Not works alone

But in Christ by faith and baptism united to the mediator of the covenant (not a Bible study) in the state of sanctify grace (not covered but still unclean) are works are meritorious

Matt 5:7 the merciful obtain mercy
Mat 6:14-15 forgiveness obtains forgiveness

Prayer, alms, fasting, sacraments, and called to penance or suffering
Phil 1:29 col 1:24-29
Thanks

Well, when we get to the entrance of heaven we will get the verdict as to who is right when it comes to being saved by faith plus works.

Scenario 1: Saved by Faith plus works is true
Peter to Donadams: Gee Don, you nailed that doctrine ... welcome aboard
Peter to Fastfredy0: You're not the brightest bulb are you Fast ... you don't even know how you got here but you got lucky.

Scenario 2: Saved by Faith Alone
Peter to Donadams: So Don, you think the Christ and you teamed up to save you. Taking credit for Christ's work. This is not going to be pleasant
Peter to Fast: Gee, the Spirit taught you the doctrine of Faith Alone I see. You did NOTHING to get in .... welcome aboard.

 

[donadams]

Well, when we get to the entrance of heaven we will get the verdict as to who is right when it comes to being saved by faith plus works.

Scenario 1: Saved by Faith plus works is true
Peter to Donadams: Gee Don, you nailed that doctrine ... welcome aboard
Peter to Fastfredy0: You're not the brightest bulb are you Fast ... you don't even know how you got here but you got lucky.

Scenario 2: Saved by Faith Alone
Peter to Donadams: So Don, you think the Christ and you teamed up to save you. Taking credit for Christ's work. This is not going to be pleasant
Peter to Fast: Gee, the Spirit taught you the doctrine of Faith Alone I see. You did NOTHING to get in .... welcome aboard.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Thanks

 

[makesends]

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Thanks

Your point? Thanks.

 

[donadams]

Your point? Thanks.

Sound like faith alone to you?

Verses that oppose “faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over came by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”!

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible

 

[Eleanor]

Well, when we get to the entrance of heaven we will get the verdict as to who is right when it comes to being saved by faith plus works.

Scenario 1: Saved by Faith plus works is true
Peter to Donadams: Gee Don, you nailed that doctrine ... welcome aboard
Peter to Fastfredy0: You're not the brightest bulb are you Fast

The race isn't always to the swift.

(But that's the way to bet.)

... you don't even know how you got here but you got lucky.

Scenario 2: Saved by Faith Alone
Peter to Donadams: So Don, you think the Christ and you teamed up to save you. Taking credit for Christ's work. This is not going to be pleasant
Peter to Fast: Gee, the Spirit taught you the doctrine of Faith Alone I see. You did NOTHING to get in .... welcome aboard.

 

[Eleanor]

Sound like faith alone to you?

Verses that oppose “faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over came by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”!

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible

As long as you interpret Scripture in contradiction to itself (Eph 2:8-9), you neither interpret nor understand it correctly.

It all rests on the difference between being saved from the wrath of God on your sin through faith (Ro 5:9), which is salvation, and
the Christian life after salvation, which is obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

It's not complicated.

 

[Eleanor]

Sound like faith alone to you?

Salvation past = from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin, through faith alone (Eph 2:8-9),
Salvation present = Christian life of obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness Ro 6:16-19),
Salvation future = resurrection (Ro 8:22-23).

As long as you interpret Scripture in contradiction to itself (Eph 2:8-9), you neither interpret nor understand it correctly.

 

[Eleanor]

@fastfredy0

How's the popcorn holding out?

 

[fastfredy0]

How's the popcorn holding out?

Yummy, with extra butter.

...you changed @donadams mind yet? .... he's got a lot of verses dealing with the effect of faith (works)
If you win a debate by the most verses (not necessarily relevant); my money is on Don

You may be better off sitting on the side lines with me eatin' popcorn

 

[Eleanor]

Yummy, with extra butter.

...you changed @donadams mind yet? .... he's got a lot of verses dealing with the effect of faith (works)
If you win a debate by the most verses (not necessarily relevant); my money is on Don

You may be better off sitting on the side lines with me eatin' popcorn

He fails to understand the three stages of salvation; past, present and future.
All those apply to the second stage, not the first stage by faith alone.