Does it ever bother you........?

[Josheb]

Does it ever bother any of you when you read some preacher or teacher say the Church is corrupt? Does it bother you when you hear or read someone say the Church is in need of reformation, restoration, renewal, or must change?

[For the sake of this discussion the "Church" will be defined as the ecclesia, those called out of the world into God's service through His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ. The Church is not the poseur sitting in a congregation during a worship service. The Church is the body of Christ, the temple of God, the holy nation of royal priests(-esses).]​

Does that sort of thing ever bother anyone?

 

[Arial]

Does it ever bother any of you when you read some preacher or teacher say the Church is corrupt? Does it bother you when you hear or read someone say the Church is in need of reformation, restoration, renewal, or must change?

[For the sake of this discussion the "Church" will be defined as the ecclesia, those called out of the world into God's service through His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ. The Church is not the poseur sitting in a congregation during a worship service. The Church is the body of Christ, the temple of God, the holy nation of royal priests(-esses).]​

Does that sort of thing ever bother anyone?

Using your definition of church as the invisible body of Christ consisting of all true believers---it cannot be corrupted.

Usually when someone says that they are speaking of the visible church, the practices allowed and taught in it under the name of Christianity. And it is in desperate need of genuine God-given revival. A restoration back to the solid doctrinal teachings that came out of the Reformation as expressed in the WCF and many of the other confessions of faith.

So to answer the question. According to the definition of church that you give, and built on the foundation that the apostles laid , and Jesus as the cornerstone, that we have in our N, yes, that would upset me greatly. It is also going on in a lot of Christian churches on a wide scale and has been, in increasing measure, for over a 100 years.

To say the visible congregations have been corrupted and are in need of reformation and renewal, no, that does not bother me. I agree. All individuals have a responsibility to know the word, study it, and think for themselves. But a renewal or revival or Reformation, begins in the pulpit. Too many standing in that position are compromising cowards that bend in the wind when they realize persecution will come from society if they stand their ground.

 

[fastfredy0]

Does it ever bother any of you when you read some preacher or teacher say the Church is corrupt? Does it bother you when you hear or read someone say the Church is in need of reformation, restoration, renewal, or must change?

Nope

 

[Hazelelponi]

Does it ever bother any of you when you read some preacher or teacher say the Church is corrupt? Does it bother you when you hear or read someone say the Church is in need of reformation, restoration, renewal, or must change?

[For the sake of this discussion the "Church" will be defined as the ecclesia, those called out of the world into God's service through His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ. The Church is not the poseur sitting in a congregation during a worship service. The Church is the body of Christ, the temple of God, the holy nation of royal priests(-esses).]​

Does that sort of thing ever bother anyone?

Since I just uploaded a video saying "Revival and Reformation" in the title yesterday, I'm going with no for my answer.

 

[Josheb]

So to answer the question. According to the definition of church that you give, and built on the foundation that the apostles laid , and Jesus as the cornerstone, that we have in our N, yes, that would upset me greatly. It is also going on in a lot of Christian churches on a wide scale and has been, in increasing measure, for over a 100 years.

Exactly.

While imperfect, the body of Christ is not in need of reform, restoration, or renewal. No matter how it seems to us at any given time, the Church is exactly where God wants it to be. Think of sanctification instead of reform. God is sanctifying the body of His Son as He sees fit. He does that both individually (you, me, @Fred, @Hazelelponi, etc. as individuals) and corporately (the body as a whole, an organized group of people, or an institution). When the Bible spoke of reform, restoration, or renewal it was always in the context of an apostate corporate body (Israel).


Acts 3:17-21
And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Acts 15:12-18 ESV
And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’


The gospel IS the restoration of God's people. The Church is the restored/reformed/renewed body. There's no precedent in the New Testament for what frequently happens in today's preaching. Instead, what we find in the NT is,

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

There's no wholesale indictment of the entire Church. In point of fact, even when egregious behavior is described in the epistolary, the authors invariably either treat the offenders as a genuine believer and an authentic member of Christ's body, or its antithesis: someone to be discharged wholly from the congregation. The closest we'll find of a corporate indictment is that of the seven "churches" in Revelation. When preachers/teachers today indict the Church, they're speaking of Christians as a whole, not poseurs. I will provide a few examples as the thread unfolds.




Two points of note: 1) we use the word "church" too diversely. In scripture the word "Church," or "ecclesia" is always people and never such things as a building. The word "Church" is never used in reference to those not called out. It is, sometimes, contextually used to mean a congregation in some specified locale rather than the entire corporate body of all Christians throughout the world. The text provides indication to which body the word is referring. 2) For the aforementioned reason I eschew the many other uses of the word. I do not speak of the "visible," or "invisible" "church." The Church is always visible to God and it is that body of genuine believers to which scripture most often refers. An apostate group of local believers (a would-be "church) is not the Church.
.

Nope

Since I just uploaded a video saying "Revival and Reformation" in the title yesterday, I'm going with no for my answer.

Are either of you in need of reform, restoration, or renewal? Before answering, think about how those terms are used in the Bible. Who is it God speaks of needing those things? What do those groups or individuals look like; what have they done to warrant God's indictment? If you are not like them then what justification do modern preachers have for using the terms differently than God does in His word?

 

[Josheb]

Here's a little more information to consider:

While many Christian writers have written about reform and/or renewal over the centuries since the canon of scripture was closed, what we observe and experience today is a direct product of the 19th century Restoration Movement. That entire movement was built on the premise the Church is corrupt and, therefore, in need of restoration = a return to the New Testament era Church. Accordingly, each sect held a different view of what that New Testament era Church looked like so to be a member of the "true" Church a person had to join their sect and follow their teachings. The result was an immensely fractured set of Christians (and non-Christians). The Restoration Movement's balkanization of the Church made the Reformation look alike an amateur hour trial run (and it fundamentally changed the definition of what constitutes a Christian and how someone becomes a Christian). With the invention of the radio and the rise of the radio preacher and televangelist the practice of indicting the Church became more and more common.

So.....

Think about what you may have heard or read recently as far as accusations of need go (because the honest and forthcoming appraisal is that these are accusations) and ask 1) is this an appeal to purity and 2) is this an expression of a bad ecclesiology (the doctrine of the Church - which I have defined in this op)? If either is true then the preacher/teacher is preaching/teaching incorrectly and might well be a false teacher.


One of the main things that happened among the modern futurists of the Restoration Movement, especially among the Dispensationalists, is the elevation of ecclesiology and eschatology over the doctrines of Christology and soteriology. Prior to the 19th century the latter two were considered preeminent and superior doctrines. The 19th century changed that. This is one of the chief reasons, overwhelmingly, that we have so many preachers telling us we, the Church are in need of reformation, renewal, or restoration. They often do so laying a proverbial guilt trip on the hearer/reader.

Listen for this as you go about your life over the next week.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Listen for this as you go about your life over the next week.

I'll consider it, I really don't know.

 

[Hazelelponi]

@Josheb - I just saw something in some verses you posted elsewhere that made me think about this again.

I still need to consider it more but can you do me a favor? Can you stop changing the color of the Bible verses you post? It would help me considerably.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb - I just saw something in some verses you posted elsewhere that made me think about this again.

I still need to consider it more but can you do me a favor? Can you stop changing the color of the Bible verses you post? It would help me considerably.

Would this color be better? How about this color? I like to color the scripture to separate God's word(s) from my own and highlight the scriptures used. I may have the opposite problem you have. I have difficulty picking up the scriptures when they're posted in the same color and format as everything else posted.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Would this color be better? How about this color? I like to color the scripture to separate God's word(s) from my own and highlight the scriptures used. I may have the opposite problem you have. I have difficulty picking up the scriptures when they're posted in the same color and format as everything else posted.

I can see both of those colors, the red is brighter and blurs a little easier as a result but it stands out and I can see the words fairly easily and well if you want to change to red and can see it yourself.

I can also see a bright green.

 

[Josheb]

I can see both of those colors, the red is brighter and blurs a little easier as a result but it stands out and I can see the words fairly easily and well if you want to change to red and can see it yourself.

I can also see a bright green.

I prefer the green (although it looks gray to me). I have difficulty distinguishing the red (I'm red-green color blind). I will change colors just for you .

I usually post scripture in blue and extra-biblical sources in green. I'll start doing the reverse since my use of extra-biblical sources is infrequent.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I prefer the green (although it looks gray to me). I have difficulty distinguishing the red (I'm red-green color blind). I will change colors just for you .

I usually post scripture in blue and extra-biblical sources in green. I'll start doing the reverse since my use of extra-biblical sources is infrequent.

You won't need to do it forever. I need eye surgery, which it'll still be a minute for.

Thank you, and I'll start doing a color on my Bible verses too.