Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[Carbon]

Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

 

[Fred]

I read and try to learn from each side.
I think I lean a little more towards Calvinism.

 

[Fish4Fun]

I voted Calvinist, BUT I probably am more Calvinistic . I do understand that certain camps would not grant me the ' title ' of Calvinist and some wouldn't even extend the hand of friendship if you don't hold 100% to their beliefs. ( I always find comfort in R.C. & Johnny Mac. ..That's the way I want to be. essentials 100% agreement .. other things, conscience ? )

 

[Deleted member 5]

Sibboleth, Shibboleth.

 

[makesends]

I call myself Reformed because it more quickly brings fellowship with those of a similar mind, and so that people would more easily know where I am coming from when I argue, than to not call myself that (or Calvinist). But I don't owe either my allegiance, though I do defend them. As one friend of mine says, "I love it when a bunch of old dead guys agrees with me." I did not learn what I believe from either camp, but from hard experience, prayer and study.

 

[Deleted member 5]

I call myself Reformed because it more quickly brings fellowship with those of a similar mind, and so that people would more easily know where I am coming from when I argue, than to not call myself that (or Calvinist). But I don't owe either my allegiance, though I do defend them. As one friend of mine says, "I love it when a bunch of old dead guys agrees with me." I did not learn what I believe from either camp, but from hard experience, prayer and study.

Same here. I never read nor studied Calvin or any Reformers. Someone mentioned TULIP in SS some 15 years ago. Reading Scripture God opened my eyes to His Sovereignty in all things and it was game on.

 

[ReverendRV]

I voted somewhere between Calvinism and Arminianism, though I'm a Calvinist; since I'm the most liberal 5-Point Calvinist you will meet. I like Fullerism, so I guess by the definition, I would be between...

 

[Carbon]

I voted somewhere between Calvinism and Arminianism, though I'm a Calvinist; since I'm the most liberal 5-Point Calvinist you will meet. I like Fullerism, so I guess by the definition, I would be between...

Fullerism? Remind me what that is?

What I know of it is Andrew Fuller was a particular baptist. But what was the teaching known as fullerism?

 

[ReverendRV]

Fullerism? Remind me what that is?

What I know of it is Andrew Fuller was a particular baptist. But what was the teaching known as fullerism?

He says it is the Duty of All people to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Most Calvinists will agree to that, but they may disagree that everyone could be Saved by the Gospel. Fuller taught that anyone can be Saved by the Gospel...

It is a Topic for another Thread...

 

[Carbon]

He says it is the Duty of All people to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Well it is of course. As far as the elect go, God chose them and regenerates them at their appointed time. However, that does not release any non-elect from their obligation to believe. But they choose not to. God does not force anyone to not believe.

Most Calvinists will agree to that, but they may disagree that everyone could be Saved by the Gospel.

I believe the gospel is the power unto salvation for those who are believing. I do not believe the gospel by itself saves anyone. If that were the case, everyone who heard it would believe it and be saved.
IMO that is semi-pelagian. That's where they see grace, it's in the gospel that anyone can choose to believe.

Fuller taught that anyone can be Saved by the Gospel...

That's probably the issue I had with him.

It is a Topic for another Thread...

Sure, could be.

 

[Carbon]

Well it is of course. As far as the elect go, God chose them and regenerates them at their appointed time. However, that does not release any non-elect from their obligation to believe. But they choose not to. God does not force anyone to not believe.


I believe the gospel is the power unto salvation for those who are believing. I do not believe the gospel by itself saves anyone. If that were the case, everyone who heard it would believe it.
IMO that is semi-pelagian. That's where they see grace, it's in the gospel that anyone can choose to believe.

That's probably the issue I had with him.

Sure, could be.

@ReverendRV
Know what I am saying, brother?
In may be wrong (though I don't think so), if you see where I am in error please point it out.

 

[ReverendRV]

@ReverendRV
Know what I am saying, brother?
In may be wrong (though I don't think so), if you see where I am in error please point it out.

Fuller looked at the Duty of All to Believe the Gospel and be Saved, as part of the requirement to Keep the First Commandment; thou shalt have no other God before Me/Jesus Christ, means thou SHALT have Jesus Christ as your LORD God. Andrew Fuller viewed this as a Universal Command for All, not only for the Jews. From what we know about the Bible and Jesus Christ, he is the God who carved the Ten Commandments with his finger; instructing Israel to Worship him. Is this Commandment for All, or just for Israel? It's for All, because the Edenic Covenant of Works is for All who are in Adam as their Federal Head. All are in Adam, until Some are in Jesus. The Mosaic Law didn't exist until Moses; there is no Condemnation where there is no Law. But Keeping the Sabbath Holy is an Eternal Decree; a Law of Creation. Cain killed Abel, and was Guilty though the Commandment not to Murder hadn't been given yet. Why was he Guilty? Because it is an Eternal Law. And, because All the Commandments are part of the Covenant of Works; even if they're not named in the Edenic Covenant of Works. There was only one Commandment named in the Edenic Covenant of Works; though shalt not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam ate the Fruit, the Knowledge of Good and Evil was written on his heart; IE the Ten Commandments, which contain the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is why Cain was Guilty even though the Mosaic Covenant of Works hadn't been given yet. When those who are not under the Law, Keep the Law; they show the Law is written on their hearts...

Since the Edenic Covenant of Works has Unconditional Universal Consequences for All, such as Original Sin and Pain in Childbirth; the Command of the Covenant of Works is that All are Commanded to Worship the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are the same Covenant of Works, with two Federal Heads; Adam and Jesus Christ. One Federal Head broke the Covenant of Works for All, the other Federal Head Kept the Covenant of Works for All...

"For All or not for All; that is the qustion?" This is not Shakespeare, but is "THE" question. Romans 5 says 'All'...

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - Romans 5:18

In Fullerism, there is a Universal aspect to both of these Adams, the First Adam and the Second one. The One Righteous Act that resulted in Justification and Life for All people cannot be True, unless the Consequences of Jesus Keeping the Covenant of Works also has Universal Unconditional Consequences for All. What are these Unconditional Consequences? The Consequences are a Universal opportunity; IE the availability of Atonement for All, as Condemnation for All was also Universal. If the First Adam had Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works, his righteous Act would have also resulted in Justification and Life for All; because the Edenic Covenant of Works is a Universal Covenant. When Jesus Kept the Mosaic Covenant of Works, he also Concurrently Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works; after all, he is the Second Adam to try to Keep the Edenic Covenant. Since the Edenic Covenant was Kept by Jesus, his Covenant of Works is also Universal; as Adam's Covenant was. The Mosaic Covenant is Limited to Israel, so why use Commandments to convict Gentiles of Sin? Because the Covenant of Works Universally applies to them too through the Edenic Covenant...

 

[ReverendRV]

Fuller looked at the Duty of All to Believe the Gospel and get Saved, as part of the requirement to Keep the First Commandment; thou shalt have no other God before Me/Jesus Christ, means thou SHALT have Jesus as your God. He viewed this as a Universal Command for All, not only for the Jews. What we know about the Bible and Jesus Christ, means he is the God who carved the Ten Commandments with his finger; Commanding Israel to Worship him. Is this Commandment for All, or just for Israel? It's for All, because the Edenic Covenant of Works is for All who are in Adam as their Federal Head. All are in Adam, until Some are in Jesus. The Mosaic Law didn't exist until Moses; there is no Condemnation where there is no Law. But Keeping the Sabbath Holy is an Eternal Decree; an Eternal Law. Cain killed Abel, and was Guilty though that Commandment hadn't been given yet. Why was he Guilty? Because it is an Eternal Law. And, because All the Commandments are a part of the Covenant of Works; even if they are not named in the Edenic Covenant of Works. There was only one Commandment named in the Edenic Covenant of Works; though shalt not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam ate the Fruit, the Knowledge of Good and Evil was written on his heart; IE the Ten Commandments, which contain the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is why Cain was Guilty even though the Mosaic Covenant of Works hadn't been given yet. When those who are not under the Law, Keep the Law; they show the Law is written on their hearts...

Since the Edenic Covenant of Works has Unconditional Universal Consequences for All, such as Original Sin and Pain in Childbirth; the Command of the One Covenant of Works is that All are Commanded to Worship the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are the same Covenant of Works, with two Federal Heads; Adam and Jesus Christ. One Federal Head broke the Covenant of Works for All, the other Federal Head Kept the Covenant of Works for All...

For All or not for All; that is the question. This is not Shakespeare, but is " THE" question. Romans 5 says All...

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - Romans 5:18

In Fullerism, there is a Universal aspect to both of these Adams, the First Adam and the Second one. The One Righteous Act that resulted in Justification and Life for All cannot be True, unless the Consequences of Jesus Keeping the Mosaic Covenant of Works also has Unconditional Consequences for All. What are these Unconditional Consequences? The Consequences are a Universal opportunity; IE the availability of Atonement for All, as Condemnation for All was also Universal. If the First Adam had Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works, his righteous Act would have also resulted in Justification and Life for All; because the Edenic Covenant of Works is a Universal Covenant. When Jesus Kept the Mosaic Covenant of Works, he also Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works; after all, he is the Second Adam to try to Keep the Edenic Covenant. Since the Edenic Covenant was Kept by Jesus, his Covenant of Works is also Universal; as Adam's Covenant of Works was Universal. The Mosaic Covenant was Limited to Israel, so why do we use it's Commandments to convict Gentiles of Sin then? Because the Covenant of Works Universally applies to them through the Edenic Covenant too...

Don't tell Civic I said this

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

I'm a kneejerk spell checker. That is "business" in the poll.

 

[David1701]

Fullerism? Remind me what that is?

What I know of it is Andrew Fuller was a particular baptist. But what was the teaching known as fullerism?

Below is a link to quite a detailed article on Fullerism. Fuller did not like what is often called "Calvinism", referring to some of his predecessors (especially John Gill) as, "a dunghill of High Calvinism".

What is the Problem with Fullerism? - Elder Joe Holder

What is the Problem with Fullerism? - Elder Joe Holder. Elder Holder addresses this important topic and sheds light on the truth of Fullerism and its error.

www.littlezionpbc.org

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Below is a link to quite a detailed article on Fullerism. Fuller did not like what is often called "Calvinism", referring to some of his predecessors (especially John Gill) as, "a dunghill of High Calvinism".

As a "High Calvinist" I point to "Jolt Cola" in my defense.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Below is a link to quite a detailed article on Fullerism. Fuller did not like what is often called "Calvinism", referring to some of his predecessors (especially John Gill) as, "a dunghill of High Calvinism".

What is the Problem with Fullerism? - Elder Joe Holder

What is the Problem with Fullerism? - Elder Joe Holder. Elder Holder addresses this important topic and sheds light on the truth of Fullerism and its error.

www.littlezionpbc.org

I see "duty faith" as not only unbiblical, but akin to decisional regeneration. It is a bit disingenuous as well since faith is a gift, so it remains self-contradictory.

I think these doctrines are borne out of feeling God's way isn't fair.

 

[Eleanor]

Other. . .I'm a Paulist.

 

[Eleanor]

Fuller looked at the Duty of All to Believe the Gospel and be Saved, as part of the requirement to Keep the First Commandment; thou shalt have no other God before Me/Jesus Christ, means thou SHALT have Jesus Christ as your LORD God. Andrew Fuller viewed this as a Universal Command for All, not only for the Jews. From what we know about the Bible and Jesus Christ, he is the God who carved the Ten Commandments with his finger; instructing Israel to Worship him. Is this Commandment for All, or just for Israel? It's for All, because the Edenic Covenant of Works is for All who are in Adam as their Federal Head. All are in Adam, until Some are in Jesus. The Mosaic Law didn't exist until Moses; there is no Condemnation where there is no Law.

Interesting details regarding the principle of guilt in the time between Adam and Moses.
In (the complex passage of) Ro 5:12-14, Paul is demonstrating his argument (not stated until Ro 5:18) by contrasting
the law in the Garden with its death sentence causing Adam's death for transgressing it, and
the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law with death sentence and, therefore, no one was subject to death for transgression of law.
From Adam to Moses, sin was in the world (Cain, etc.), but it was not accounted against them for death without a death penalty in force.
Ro 5:12-14 is about sin not being counted against those between Adam and Moses, about their being no guilt of any sin accounted to them to cause death.

And "the rest of the story". . .then why did they all die when death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), not accounted against them?

But Keeping the Sabbath Holy is an Eternal Decree; a Law of Creation. Cain killed Abel, and was Guilty though the Commandment not to Murder hadn't been given yet. Why was he Guilty? Because it is an Eternal Law. And, because All the Commandments are part of the Covenant of Works; even if they're not named in the Edenic Covenant of Works. There was only one Commandment named in the Edenic Covenant of Works; though shalt not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam ate the Fruit, the Knowledge of Good and Evil was written on his heart; IE the Ten Commandments, which contain the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is why Cain was Guilty even though the Mosaic Covenant of Works hadn't been given yet. When those who are not under the Law, Keep the Law; they show the Law is written on their hearts...

Since the Edenic Covenant of Works has Unconditional Universal Consequences for All, such as Original Sin and Pain in Childbirth; the Command of the Covenant of Works is that All are Commanded to Worship the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are the same Covenant of Works, with two Federal Heads; Adam and Jesus Christ.

One Federal Head broke the Covenant of Works for All, the other Federal Head Kept the Covenant of Works for All..."For All or not for All; that is the qustion?" This is not Shakespeare, but is "THE" question. Romans 5 says 'All'...
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - Romans 5:18

This is Paul's argument of Ro 5:12-14, where Adam is a pattern of Christ (v.14).
He states his argument in contrasting parallels between the transgression of Adam and the obedience of Christ,
where all in Adam are made sinners by Adam's guilt, just as all in Christ are made righteous by Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:19).
Note that neither guilt nor righteousness are attributed to anything man did.
Made is made both sinner and righteous.

In what parallel way are they made righteous and made guilty?
They are made righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 4:1-11), just as they are made quilty by the imputation of Adam's guilt.
And that is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress and no sin was accounted/charged to anyone (Ro 5:12-14).
They all died because of the guilt of Adam imputed to them, just as in Christ they all live (spared from eternal death) because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, as it was imputed to Abraham by faith (Ge 15:6).

In Fullerism, there is a Universal aspect to both of these Adams, the First Adam and the Second one. The One Righteous Act that resulted in Justification and Life for All people cannot be True, unless the Consequences of Jesus Keeping the Covenant of Works also has Universal Unconditional Consequences for All. What are these Unconditional Consequences? The Consequences are a Universal opportunity; IE the availability of Atonement for All, as Condemnation for All was also Universal. If the First Adam had Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works, his righteous Act would have also resulted in Justification and Life for All; because the Edenic Covenant of Works is a Universal Covenant. When Jesus Kept the Mosaic Covenant of Works, he also Concurrently Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works; after all, he is the Second Adam to try to Keep the Edenic Covenant. Since the Edenic Covenant was Kept by Jesus, his Covenant of Works is also Universal; as Adam's Covenant was. The Mosaic Covenant is Limited to Israel, so why use Commandments to convict Gentiles of Sin? Because the Covenant of Works Universally applies to them too through the Edenic Covenant...

However, in contrast to Fullerism here, Paul shows that the Gentiles are not judged at the final judgment by any law, but are judged by their conscience (Ro 2:14-16).

 

[ReverendRV]

Interesting details regarding the principle of guilt in the time between Adam and Moses.
In (the complex passage of) Ro 5:12-14, Paul is demonstrating his argument (not stated until Ro 5:18) by contrasting
the law in the Garden with its death sentence causing Adam's death for transgressing it, and
the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law with death sentence and, therefore, no one was subject to death for transgression of law.
From Adam to Moses, sin was in the world (Cain, etc.), but it was not accounted against them for death without a death penalty in force.
Ro 5:12-14 is about sin not being counted against those between Adam and Moses, about their being no guilt of any sin accounted to them.

And "the rest of the story". . .then why did they all die when death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23)?

Thanks...

When it comes to Romans 5, I prefer to interpret it with Covenant Theology. In Adam and in Christ, speaks of their Edenic Covenants; being in one or the other: being in a broken Edenic Covenant or a Kept Edenic Covenant...

That's all I'm saying...