Annihilationism is taught in the bible

[CherubRam]

"Saint Peter at a pearly gate!"
Where do you guys get all of this unbiblical stuff?

 

[Johan]

They will perish, but the devil lays the lie that maybe they can get a another chance (purgatory) or they are locked in (OSAS), or everyone goes to heaven (Universalism).... So lots of snares laid out there to deceive...

Of course there are those who will perish. However-

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Old Testament Bible Verses about Repentance
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Psalm 38:18
I confess my iniquity; I am sorry for my sin.

Psalm 51:13
Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. - Proverbs 28:13
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Isaiah 55:6-7
Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah 26:3
It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.

Ezekiel 18:21-23
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Joel 2:13
And rend your hearts and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

Zechariah 1:3
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the Lord of hosts: Return to me, says the Lord of hosts, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts.

John the Baptist’s Message of Repentance
Matthew 3:8
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:4
John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:24
Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

Jesus Preaches Repentance
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.” For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Mark 1:15
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 5:31-32
And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 17:3
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

The Disciples Preach Repentance
Mark 6:12
So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.

Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

What has this to do with OSAS and purgatory?
J.

 

[Mr GLee]

So you're a "Baby burner", then??

What's that?

 

[Johan]

What's that?

"Toasting" braaing vleis-I presume?
Lol!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What's that?

Since Adam's SIN is (supposedly) imputed to everybody, then Infants, who die prematurely (like my daughter) would have to go to HELL because of it, as well as aborted fetuses, and young children. I.e. THERE'S NO SUCH THING as "Innocence".

 

[Eleanor]

Part two....
These truths, that sin, death, and condemnation come upon all by one man, are clearly expressed in the following verses, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.
Through the offense of one, many are dead. The judgment was by the one that sinned to condemnation. By one man’s offense death reigned by one. By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. You and many others labors to restrict the declaration in the first to an assertion of individual and actual transgression. The doctrine of imputed sin is clearly contained in the verses under consideration. Adam’s sin was as truly the sin of every one of his posterity, as if it had been personally committed by him. It is only in this way that all could be involved in its consequences. Besides, it is only in this light that it is illustrative of justification by Christ~which show me that you and others do not ahve a clear understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his imputeth righteousness to his people as their right to eternal life. Believers truly lived in Christ as members of his elect body, thereby, die with Christ, and pay the debt in Him by their union or oneness with Him~this is the truth of the gospel of Christ, anything less is a corruption of the gospel preached by the Apostles of our Lord Jesus. It belongs not to us to inquire how these things can be. We receive them on the testimony of God. Secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children.

Romans 5:13~(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law...
verse and the following are obviously interposed in vindication of the assertion that ‘all have sinned.’ It might be argued by opponents of the Gospel, that if there was no law, and therefore no transgression, anterior to Moses, the Apostle’s declaration would not hold good in respect to that long period which elapsed before the promulgation of the written commandments at Mount Sinai. In reply, Paul reasons backward from death to sin, and from sin to law. Admitting, in the last clause of the verse, that sin could not be imputed without law, he proves that sin was in the world by the undeniable fact that there was death; and if this proves that there was sin, then it inevitably follows that there must have been law:

This personally-ascribed "inevitability" in v. 14, has Paul contradicting himself in v. 13,

Contraire. . .Paul does no such thing.
It is not Paul who contradicts himself, it is the above which is contradictory.

By the fact that where there is no law, there is no sin, Paul proves there was no personal sin accounted to mankind between Adam and Moses, because there was no law.
At the same time, from the fact of death Paul proves there was sin in the world,
but Paul does not contradict himself (v.13) and present the cause of that sin to be law (in v.14), of which there was none.

Rather he points out a conflict in the fact that no law means no sin, and yet there was sin where there was no law.
He points out that conflict to demonstrate the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam as a pattern (Ro 5:14) of
the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 4:1-11, 5:18-19).

and thus he evinces the fallacy of the assumption on which the objection is founded.

Absolutely not!

Paul's principle that where there is no law, there is no sin accounted is not an assumptive fallacy,
It is fact. Paul does not deal in fallacies!
It is man's theology that deals in fallacies.

There was no law between Adam and Moses. No personal sin was accounted between Adam and Moses.

The sin that caused death between Adam and Moses was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14).
just as eternal life (new birth) results in faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 4:1-11).

 

[Mr GLee]

Since Adam's SIN is (supposedly) imputed to everybody, then Infants, who die prematurely (like my daughter) would have to go to HELL because of it, as well as aborted fetuses, and young children. I.e. THERE'S NO SUCH THING as "Innocence".

Adams sin of violating the letter of the law fulfilled the temporal period mankind was under it It passed down death to all flesh

From the womb they have not been born again knowing God Some did like jacob used to represent those born again

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Psalm 22:9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

Psalm 22:10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

David was given a revelation his son wsa born again .

2 Samuel 12:2-23 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Pray that the lord has called our children from the womb Some like myself slow learner

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Adams sin of violating the letter of the law fulfilled the temporal period mankind was under it It passed down death to all flesh

From the womb they have not been born again knowing God Some did like jacob used to represent those born again

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Psalm 22:9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

Psalm 22:10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

David was given a revelation his son wsa born again .

2 Samuel 12:2-23 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Pray that the lord has called our children from the womb Some like myself slow learner

So nothing then.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There was no law between Adam and Moses. No personal sin was accounted between Adam and Moses.

FALSE!! SIN is that which causes EVIL, and people SINNED and fell short of God's Glory starting with Adam until the present.

The sin that caused death between Adam and Moses was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14).

FALSE!! the sin that send people to hell was THEIR OWN SIN.

just as eternal life (new birth) results in faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 4:1-11).

False Dichotomy.

 

[Hobie]

Of course there are those who will perish. However-

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Old Testament Bible Verses about Repentance
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Psalm 38:18
I confess my iniquity; I am sorry for my sin.

Psalm 51:13
Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. - Proverbs 28:13
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Isaiah 55:6-7
Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah 26:3
It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.

Ezekiel 18:21-23
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Joel 2:13
And rend your hearts and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

Zechariah 1:3
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the Lord of hosts: Return to me, says the Lord of hosts, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts.

John the Baptist’s Message of Repentance
Matthew 3:8
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:4
John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:24
Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

Jesus Preaches Repentance
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.” For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Mark 1:15
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 5:31-32
And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 17:3
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

The Disciples Preach Repentance
Mark 6:12
So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.

Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

What has this to do with OSAS and purgatory?
J.

If you were to go to such a place as purgatory, you just have to wait and then you go to heaven. Once Saved Always saved is a bit of the same, you just say you are saved and can sin as much as you want as you wait to go to heaven. Both are deception from evil, but getting into that would most likely derail this discussion. We can set up another if you wish...

 

[Red Baker]

They will perish, but the devil lays the lie that maybe they can get a another chance (purgatory) or they are locked in (OSAS), or everyone goes to heaven (Universalism).... So lots of snares laid out there to deceive...

Hobie, I would love to debate you on this subject: Once Love Always Love~Just change the "S" to a L" and let's us discuss this subject ~ In another thread.

 

[Red Baker]

If you were to go to such a place as purgatory, you just have to wait and then you go to heaven. Once Saved Always saved is a bit of the same, you just say you are saved and can sin as much as you want as you wait to go to heaven. Both are deception from evil, but getting into that would most likely derail this discussion. We can set up another if you wish...

I wish! THe only problem with debating you, you don't stay around once it starts, at least that's the way it was at Grace Centered forum.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you know that I am already on the same page with your comments when it comes to teachings about imputation and representation. Yet the way this one sentence was structured sent up a red flag for me. Infants from conception onward DO die because they are sinners, not because they have necessarily had opportunity to commit a sin yet. The death sentence passes upon even a one-celled human embryo, since at the very moment of conception, that conceived human child is considered to be "IN Adam" in Adam's fallen state, and will consequently die once at some point.

This theme aligns with what Job said in Job 14:4. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." Anyone descending from the race of Adam in his fallen state is consequently unclean by that association with being "IN Adam". I'm fairly sure I remember you expressing agreement with this before on our other website.

Brother, what did I say that was so wrong that you had a red flag to go up?

Now thinking back, I remember you mentioning that you had a child died before it was born into this world, is this causing you to have the red flag to go up?

I looked at things like this and say the secret things unknown to us and not revealed ~ we should not be overly concerned about. I leave such things like this in God's hand knowing he does everything perfectly, righteously, and in mercy.

Some you quoted is not my words some were added by you.

The death sentence passes upon even a one-celled human embryo

Those are your words not mine.

 

[Hobie]

I wish! THe only problem with debating you, you don't stay around once it starts, at least that's the way it was at Grace Centered forum.

Sorry but besides teaching at church, I have work as a moderator on other forums, so dont get around as much as I would like. Except when I am sick and stuck at home.... but in my thinking, Christians shouldnt "debate" to see who "wins", but teach and give each other truth and testify to edify...

 

[Eleanor]

FALSE!! SIN is that which causes EVIL, and people SINNED and fell short of God's Glory starting with Adam until the present.

Sorry your theology is in disagreement with Paul in Ro 5:12-14.

FALSE!! the sin that send people to hell was THEIR OWN SIN.

Paul does not treat of hell in Ro 5:12-14.
He treats of death caused by sin.

False Dichotomy.

No dichotomy between imputation of sin and imputation of righteousness is presented .

Only a contrasting parallel is presented (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Some you quoted is not my words some were added by you.
Those are your words not mine.

I was not quoting you there. It was just that one sentence that I quoted from you at the very start that sent up a red flag for me. It was this one below...

If infants may die though they are not sinners, then may adults die without being sinners.

Now thinking back, I remember you mentioning that you had a child died before it was born into this world, is this causing you to have the red flag to go up?

I have not just one, but four grandchildren that never saw the light of day. Every one of them needed a Savior. Every one of them from conception were considered to be "IN Adam" to begin with.

Salvation is not something that can be a presumed condition, even for these four who were never born. The very fact that they died before birth proves that they inherited the death sentence passed upon all mankind as being sinners from conception. If I am ever to meet them after my death, it will be due to God's grace extended to them in the womb. As you have said, this is an unknown that requires that we trust the heart of God that is full of mercy and loving-kindness. If I don't meet some or all of them after my death, it will also be God's decision that they were not to become one of His elect. In that case, God in mercy will have spared them from living a lengthy wicked life separated from fellowship with Him on earth, and their spirit will be destroyed and never reunited with a changed body made incorruptible. This would be a grief to me, but not an intolerable one.

 

[Red Baker]

I was not quoting you there. It was just that one sentence that I quoted from you at the very start that sent up a red flag for me. It was this one below...

I have not just one, but four grandchildren that never saw the light of day. Every one of them needed a Savior. Every one of them from conception were considered to be "IN Adam" to begin with.

I see now~Well, at least you humbly acknowledged the truth without allowing your emotions to dictate your theology, but rather thus saith the Lord. The Lord bless you my brother, and grant you your heart desires.

Salvation is not something that can be a presumed condition, even for these four who were never born. The very fact that they died before birth proves that they inherited the death sentence passed upon all mankind as being sinners from conception. If I am ever to meet them after my death, it will be due to God's grace extended to them in the womb. As you have said, this is an unknown that requires that we trust the heart of God that is full of mercy and loving-kindness. If I don't meet some or all of them after my death, it will also be God's decision that they were not to become one of His elect. In that case, God in mercy will have spared them from living a lengthy wicked life separated from fellowship with Him on earth, and their spirit will be destroyed and never reunited with a changed body made incorruptible. This would be a grief to me, but not an intolerable one.

What a wonderful testimony and a submission to the will and word of God~most are not capable of making that submission, only the very elect are able.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry but besides teaching at church, I have work as a moderator on other forums, so dont get around as much as I would like. Except when I am sick and stuck at home.... but in my thinking, Christians shouldnt "debate" to see who "wins", but teach and give each other truth and testify to edify...

Hobie, I agree with not debating to win but to test each others doctrine~you come and post a whirlwind of scriptures, many of which I would agree with, yet you also take shots at a precious truth taught in the scriptures concerning ONCE LOVED ALWAYS LOVED ~ which you and others prefer to go after "once saved always saved"~which does seemly gives your false teaching a little support since the words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the scriptures ~ one which does teach that we can lose a certain salvation that we possess as believers yet not lose our souls in the lake of fire. This is what I truly want to discuss with you.

I do not think you are more busy than me~so a little time may be very useful for others to read and help them to be more convince of the truth or error. This is why we are here~ and for no other reason~there's certainly is no glory to be had, since we will never see the folks we are taking to, it is all about helping our brothers in the faith and helping ourselves as well.

 

[Red Baker]

This personally-ascribed "inevitability" in v. 14, has Paul contradicting himself in v. 13,

Contraire. . .Paul does no such thing.
It is not Paul who contradicts himself, it is the above which is contradictory.

By the fact that where there is no law, there is no sin, Paul proves there was no personal sin accounted to mankind between Adam and Moses, because there was no law.
At the same time, from the fact of death Paul proves there was sin in the world,
but Paul does not contradict himself (v.13) and present the cause of that sin to be law (in v.14), of which there was none.

Rather he points out a conflict in the fact that no law means no sin, and yet there was sin where there was no law.
He points out that conflict to demonstrate the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam as a pattern (Ro 5:14) of
the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 4:1-11, 5:18-19).

Absolutely not!

Paul's principle that where there is no law, there is no sin accounted is not an assumptive fallacy,
It is fact. Paul does not deal in fallacies!
It is man's theology that deals in fallacies.

There was no law between Adam and Moses. No personal sin was accounted between Adam and Moses.

The sin that caused death between Adam and Moses was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14).
just as eternal life (new birth) results in faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 4:1-11).

Greetings Eleanor,

Again we are not far apart~We both agree on the contrasting parallel that is presented in (Romans 5:18-19). The imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity and the obedience and righteousness of Jesus to those whom he was a surety for.

Eleanor, there was a law before Moses' law~it was given to Adam by God who was our representative before God.

Genesis 2:17,17~"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). A law given, a law broken and death followed ~ immediately spiritual death, and physical afterwards.

Adam originally bore God’s image; we now bear his fallen image (Gen 5:1-3 cp I Cor 15:49), but this depravity of nature is not the argument or thought here, rather our legal guilt and condemnation through breaking God's commandment/law.

Another law of God was obviously in effect for the 2500 years from creation to the Law of Moses. Again I will repeat myself:

The existence of a law before Moses is proved by arguing backward from death to sin to law.

For until the law … sin and its effects … were in the world – men died before the Law (5:14).

For sin to be imputed against a man, there must be a law broken by that man (Romans 4:15).

Impute. To bring (a fault or the like) in the reckoning against; to lay to the charge of a person.

Sin is the transgression of the law of God, "which requires a law" for sin to be charged (I John 3:4).

Cain sinned (Gen 4:7), Sodom sinned (Gen 18:20), and Joseph’s brethren also sinned (Gen 42:22).

God destroyed the world with a flood due to its wickedness and continual evil (Genesis 6:5).

But Paul’s argument is not to establish any laws before Moses other than that given to Adam, for he is proving representation and imputation, not the doctrine of a corrupt nature.

Men experienced physical death as a result of sin, Adam’s sin (Genesis 3:19; 5:3-8; 6:21-22). We both agree.

I agree that Paul will specifically raise a class of sinners to prove the point that never had a law from God ~ the reason why is the whole passage is proving the doctrine of representation, not man’s depravity (5:12-21).

Adam our head was given a law in Genesis 2:17 ~ he sinned and we IN HIM.

 

[JIM]

God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). A law given, a law broken and death followed ~ immediately spiritual death, and physical afterwards.

and

Men experienced physical death as a result of sin, Adam’s sin (Genesis 3:19; 5:3-8; 6:21-22). We both agree.

If physical death was the result of Adam's sin, then there was absolutely no reason that God placed the tree of life in the Garden.