An Overview of the Tribulation.

[EarlyActs]

This wrath is like the world has never seen or will ever see again? Matt 24:21.

As I said above, I hope you are aware that the altering between Israel and the world is not a simple hermeneutic issue. In the 1st cent. Judean context, he meant the nation in Mt24A, not everywhere around the world. When you get past "after these things" he seems to mean the whole world, as does 2 Peter 3, which has nothing Judaic in its future vision.

 

[EarlyActs]

All I have to do is read the bible rather than some false opinion.

When has this happened? 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The Covenant Revolt is a detailed expansion of Rom 9-10, and Gal 3 on replacing the Gospel with the Law as 1st cent. Judaizers did. They created the Zealots. Jesus tried to save 2-3 of them out of their darkness. It is an integration of what we know historically, and how the Judaizers sabotaged Paul everywhere they could. It is ridiculous for you to call it 'some false opinion.' The bibliography is about 5 pages. You are the one who are on your own with 'test cases' about lines in the Rev.

If you are not aware of the tension with the Zealots, you won't even have a start of what that 1st generation's drama was like.

Do not base doctrine on the Rev if it is not already solidly expressed elsewhere, like 2 Peter 3. The Rev is apocalyptic writing and it is known in most scholarship that apocalyptic literature is like cartoons for people with background like Levitical priests; it is 'inside' exagerration and sarcasm. A simple proof of this is that 10,000 books are out there by Americans 2000 years later all claiming: 'you don't really know what the Rev means until you buy this book.' 10,000. Doesn't that raise a red flag?

 

[EarlyActs]

To Crow Cross:
one of the particular indicators of Mt 24 (and Mk 13) is that it is the only quote of Dan 9. So we know that Jesus meant for the followers to be prepared for that to take place in that generation. We shouldn't be messing around with systems that don't acknowledge that.

Of course, the pop way of handling it is to shift all of Mt24A to our future, which is ridiculous if the questions and answers are taken in their normal meaning.

 

[CrowCross]

Lazarus never died twice. That is impossible, according to the one-time-only death appointment for all men in Hebrews 9:27-28.

Then where is Lazarus?

 

[CrowCross]

To Crow Cross:
one of the particular indicators of Mt 24 (and Mk 13) is that it is the only quote of Dan 9. So we know that Jesus meant for the followers to be prepared for that to take place in that generation. We shouldn't be messing around with systems that don't acknowledge that.

Of course, the pop way of handling it is to shift all of Mt24A to our future, which is ridiculous if the questions and answers are taken in their normal meaning.

As I have said REPEATEDLY...there are events in Revelations that have never occurred....especially around 70 AD.

13And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”

Notice it's for the whole EARTH.....not Jerusalem and the temple area.

 

[CrowCross]

The Covenant Revolt is a detailed expansion of Rom 9-10, and Gal 3 on replacing the Gospel with the Law as 1st cent. Judaizers did. They created the Zealots. Jesus tried to save 2-3 of them out of their darkness. It is an integration of what we know historically, and how the Judaizers sabotaged Paul everywhere they could. It is ridiculous for you to call it 'some false opinion.' The bibliography is about 5 pages. You are the one who are on your own with 'test cases' about lines in the Rev.

If you are not aware of the tension with the Zealots, you won't even have a start of what that 1st generation's drama was like.

Do not base doctrine on the Rev if it is not already solidly expressed elsewhere, like 2 Peter 3. The Rev is apocalyptic writing and it is known in most scholarship that apocalyptic literature is like cartoons for people with background like Levitical priests; it is 'inside' exagerration and sarcasm. A simple proof of this is that 10,000 books are out there by Americans 2000 years later all claiming: 'you don't really know what the Rev means until you buy this book.' 10,000. Doesn't that raise a red flag?

You didn't answer the question...when did this happen?????

Let me post it again...

All I have to do is read the bible rather than some false opinion.

When has this happened? 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then where is Lazarus?

At present Lazarus is in heaven with all the rest of the unnumbered resurrected multitude, taken to heaven with Christ on AD 70's Pentecost day resurrection of the dead. The same resurrection that Paul told Felix and Timothy was "about to be", in Acts 24:15 and 2 Timothy 4:1 respectively.

Lazarus was one of those "alive" and "remaining" ones that Paul said would also meet the Lord together in the air with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints in 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[CrowCross]

Lazarus never died twice. That is impossible, according to the one-time-only death appointment for all men in Hebrews 9:27-28.

John 11 4 When Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

Jesus said, this sickness will not end in death.....which means Lazarus was never judged.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

[CrowCross]

If it is broken, then you will have pastors, who are otherwise sensible, saying things like 'there are 2 atonements by Christ'. That in itself should trigger huge alarm bells in us!

You've triggered many alarms and bells when you claim the rapture and Revelation happened in and about 70 AD.

 

[3 Resurrections]

John 11 4 When Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

Jesus said, this sickness will not end in death.....which means Lazarus was never judged.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Judgment is not necessarily only for punishment. It also includes rewards for God's servants, according to works performed on earth. Lazarus "remained" on the earth in his glorified body for a time, but he also eventually arrived at the judgment seat with the rest of the resurrected saints in AD 70. This is when he was given rewards according to his work on earth.

Lazarus's sickness did not end in death - it ended in a resurrection of his body after 4 days into a changed, incorruptible and immortal form.

 

[Josheb]

[Graphic]

Any comments?

Yes; lots of comments.

First, the graphic is vague. Second, it contains a lot of incorrect information. Third, there is what appears to be a Judaization of Revelation.

Foremost among the errors is the premise of globalism and the failure to correctly identify Israel.

John had gone through or was going through the tribulation at the time Revelation was written and read by his original audience.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

John was a "fellow partaker in the tribulation." Furthermore, the book of Revelation was not written to Jews or geo-political, nation-state Israel. The book was written to the Church, those who are called Christ's bondservants.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John...

And the word "Israel" is found only three times in the entire book of Revelation (Rev. 2:14, 7:4, and 21:12) and only one of those three could possibly be about covenant nation-state Israel. It is more likely about the Israel that is Israel to which Paul refers in Romans 9. It specifically has to do with the 144,000 survivors of the tribulation and that is likely a reference to what Paul wrote in Romans 11.

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

And that remnant is said to be living "at the present time," when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. Furthermore, there is no "world federation." The English word "world" is found only six times in the entire book of Revelation and two of them are "oikoumenes," not "kosmon," and not one of them mentions any "world federation." Four of the six mentions are about the world prior to John writing Revelation and one of them states the kingdom of the world is Jesus'.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

The kingdom of the world is Christ's. That is an already past event. Jesus is now king of all kings, Lord of all Lords, the Great High Priest far above all other priesthoods, and his name is far above every rule. There is a pile of scripture available to prove that. Any and all understanding of tribulation occurs necessarily within that fact, within that context.


So.....

As far as the timeline of the tribulation goes as asserted by the graphic in this op goes,

• The tribulation of Revelation has already come and gone. John was a participant in it. So too were the seven churches to whom individual letter were written instructing them to overcome tribulation.
• The tribulation of Revelation occurs in the Lord's kingdom, his global rule, and none other. The establishment of the Lord's kingdom has also already occurred. There is no global federation of kingdoms or world system of economics or religion in Revelation.
• The better way to understand the chronology of Revelation's tribulation is to understand and correctly apply Psalm 110.

Psalm 110:1-7
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." The LORD will stretch forth your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." Your people will volunteer freely in the day of your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, your youth are to You as the dew. The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." The Lord is at Your right hand; he will shatter kings in the day of his wrath. He will judge among the nations, he will fill them with corpses, he will shatter the chief men over a broad country. He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore he will lift up his head.

Jesus will remain enthroned in heaven until his Father defeats all his enemies.


I am also curious why the timeline ended with chapter 19 since several places in the New Testament state the saints will go through tribulation (both great and small), and there is no explicit mention of Jesus ever leaving heaven and physically coming to earth until the end of Revelation. Assuming the return of Christ occurs at the conclusion of Revelation's tribulation, it is odd that's left out of the graphic. In point of fact, the "time frame" has not end in that graphic .

 

[Josheb]

You've triggered many alarms and bells when you claim the rapture and Revelation happened in and about 70 AD.

non sequitur

What do alarms and bells have to do with this thread?

 

[CrowCross]

Judgment is not necessarily only for punishment. It also includes rewards for God's servants, according to works performed on earth. Lazarus "remained" on the earth in his glorified body for a time,

Where does the bible say Lazarus had a glorified bible? The answer is it doesn't

but he also eventually arrived at the judgment seat with the rest of the resurrected saints in AD 70. This is when he was given rewards according to his work on earth.

Lazarus's sickness did not end in death - it ended in a resurrection of his body after 4 days into a changed, incorruptible and immortal form.

Where does the bible mention this? The answer is it doesn't.

 

[Josheb]

...............looking closely at Rev. 17 & 18 we see that it involves more than that.

Who is "we"?

 

[CrowCross]

non sequitur

What do alarms and bells have to do with this thread?

Don't ask me. Ask EarlyActs in post 100 that i was responding to.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, you read that correctly. God the Father said He would bring the Lord`s enemies to His footstool, for judgment, (Ps. 110: 1 Ps. 2: 1 - 3).

That is not what either text states.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Christ's enemies are made a footstool, NOT brought to his footstool.

Psalm 2:1-3
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!"

No mention of being brought to Jesus' footstool for judgment.


Why are the words of scripture being changed and why is scripture being made to say things it does NOT state and cannot be made to say? Please answer that question.

 

[Josheb]

Then in Zech. 6: 5 we read of the four great spirits that God sends out into all the world to bring judgment,

Let's see what Zech 6:5 states.

Zechariah 6:1-8
Now I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; and the mountains were bronze mountains. With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses. Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, "What are these, my lord?" The angel replied to me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country. When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth." And He said, "Go, patrol the earth." So they patrolled the earth. Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, "See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north."

Notice the angels leave heaven. They are not bringing anyone to Jesus as a footstool for judgment. Jesus is still in heaven and the angels leave the "Lord of all the earth," who is still in heaven. Notice also that one of the angels goes to the north where the passage tells us God's wrath has been appeased.

while the prophet Daniel was given a description of these 4 great kingdom/Federations that God will judge just before He sets up His millennial kingdom rule. (Dan. 7)

Nonsense. Aside from the fact there are four kingdoms described in Daniel 7, there is no mention of any of that in any of God judging them before "He sets up His millennial kingdom" in any of the texts cited. The facts of Daniel 7 are that there are five kingdoms mentioned, not four, and the last of the five is Christ's. Daniel 7 states,

Daniel 7:9-10, 17-18
"I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his vesture was like white snow and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before him; thousands upon thousands were attending him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before him; the court sat, and the books were opened............ These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.

The saints receive the kingdom. Verses 12 and 14 state the other kingdoms were taken from those kings and all were given to the Son of Man.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Jesus sits enthroned in heaven until his Father defeats his enemies.





These posts read as a wantonly or haphazardly copy-and-paste splicing together of disparate scriptures. Foundationally, there is nothing showing the specific connections for any of the texts cited and an "overview of tribulation" or its "time frame."

Why are the words of scripture being changed and why is scripture being made to say things it does NOT state and cannot be made to say? Please answer that question.

 

[CrowCross]

Why are the words of scripture being changed and why is scripture being made to say things it does NOT state and cannot be made to say?

Many will and can argue it is YOU who is changing scripture.

 

[EarlyActs]

As I have said REPEATEDLY...there are events in Revelations that have never occurred....especially around 70 AD.

13And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”

Notice it's for the whole EARTH.....not Jerusalem and the temple area.

You are right IF it is to be taken in crass literalism and if 'gea' in an intensely Judaic document means the whole world rather than Israel.

btw, the 1st instance, as I recall, of the Israel/world difficulty is in the Beatitudes of Mt 5: blessed are the meek. Was it an address specifically to the violent Judaizers or to the whole world? I find for the former, although it applies to the rest of the world once that is seen clearly. That is why the subtitle of THE COVENANT REVOLT is "Jesus, the Zealots and the destruction of Israel."

 

[EarlyActs]

You've triggered many alarms and bells when you claim the rapture and Revelation happened in and about 70 AD.

My delay doctrine has the rapture at the 2nd coming, not like "3 Res" who posts here. In fact, history records a different escape route from Jerusalem anyway: when the siege of Jerusalem was stalled by Roman civil war, many Christians left. Both forms of the signal of the abomination were now in place (an evil person had taken the temple mount and the city was surrounded), but it was simply practical: the Roman guard was down.

The future event still stands though, that immediately before the final judgement of the world--which takes place in a hour, not years--believers are taken into safety and the next thing they know of is bliss with the Lamb on the NHNE. This is found in all the normal-genre (didactic) letters on the subject. That is a hermeneutical reason why the Rev is on another topic, and also why it does not yet propose a delay--because it expected the end of this world immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem.