An Overview of the Tribulation.

[EarlyActs]

Yes indeed. The effect of the competing Zealot factions operating in Christ's days and increasingly thereafter is greatly underestimated, especially for those days of "Great Tribulation" when they tore Jerusalem's besieged inhabitants to pieces between themselves. The Zealots originated from "Galilee of the Gentiles" and were the "Gentiles" which trod Jerusalem underfoot for 42 months in Revelation 11:2.

It was various Zealots wanting to fulfill the Messiah role that were going to be making those claims as "false Christs" in those first-century days.
"Gog" was a Zealot leader Simon bar Giora who gained control of Jerusalem in AD 69, and whose army fell on the mountains of Israel by the Roman troops.
The "Man of Lawlessness" was the Zealot Menahem - called the Son of Destruction because he was either the son or grandson of Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:37 who led an insurrection against Rome.
Christ was crucified between two Zealot thieves, and Barabbas was a Zealot who was released instead of Christ.

Actually John of Gischala (in Galilee too) held control at the end.

What evidence that the other thief at the crucifixion was a zealot? It is plausible (2000 one day was the max) but I just wondered if it is a citation from Josephus.

 

[EarlyActs]

It is Jesus who will defeat His enemies.

`The Lord (Jesus) is at Your (Father) right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath…` (Ps. 110: 5)

`the Father ….has given Him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment also,….` (John 5: 27)

`Now out of His (Jesus) mouth goes a sharp sword that with it He should strike the nations ….` (Rev. 19: 15)

`the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel or our Lord Jesus Christ.` (2 Thess. 1: 7 & 8)


Now you ask why the timeline ended with ch. 19. Good question. I was going on notes from former teachers. Then I worked out that diagram. But, yes, it would have been better to include the Lord`s return. Will try and rectify it. Thanks.

To reflect the NT correctly, we must all remember to move through the times with the writers. Up to 70, they expected the end of the world and the NHNE 'right after these things.' Please remember that when you are reading even the Rev; it shows.

For ex, Marilyns quote above of 2 Th 1 is from this frame of mind, as much as the middle of I Cor 7 saying the 'form of this world is about to end.' (We do not find the apostles advocating some bizarre marriage rules just after 70 AD settled, right?). But it did not end. We are in delay as 2 P 3 says.

The Rev was thus written to warn about the sin of Jerusalem and Judaism up to that point, to rejoice in the destruction of its evil, to comfort those who had lost families. But it also dealt with the Asian situation: one beast from the sea (Rome) and one from land (pagan cults in west Asia).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually John of Gischala (in Galilee too) held control at the end.

What evidence that the other thief at the crucifixion was a zealot? It is plausible (2000 one day was the max) but I just wondered if it is a citation from Josephus.

John of Gischala was Simon bar Giora's competitor in that last year of the rebellion, and his followers didn't join forces with Simon's army until Titus showed up at Jerusalem in the spring of AD 70. Then they had a mutual enemy to do battle with. But Simon bar Giora exercised the upper hand of tyranny over Jerusalem from AD 69 until AD 70 because his army numbering about 40,000 was much larger than John's.

For the two thieves crucified with Christ, they were part of Barabbas' fellow Zealot conspirators, which Mark 15:7 wrote about. "And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection." These "malefactors", as Luke called them, had participated along with Barabbas in a sedition in the city. They were more than just local pickpockets. Those two were Zealot insurrectionists who were crucified with Christ that day.

 

[Josheb]

The timeframe is the tribulation - beginning, middle and end as per details of the scroll which covers the width of the page.

Circular argument.

All other details correspond to - the beginning, middle and end.

The first century believers would understand of Christ being -

- the Head, (Eph, 1: 22),

- the Heir, (Ps. 2: 7 & 8 `son` Heb. bar` a title for the heir apparent to the throne. Hebrews 1: 1 & 2)

- the Mediator, (Ps. 110: 4, Heb. 9: 11 & 12, 1 Tim. 2: 5)

- the Judge, (John 5: 27)

View attachment 611

Eisegetic interpretation not actually stated in scripture.

Why buy the premises of other men when their claims about various verses are not what the verses actually state? Why expect others not to notice and to accept those additions without question? Really. I'd like to know the reason for accepting that (mal)practice.

Take, for example, the claim made about "in his hand is a sharp sickle." That could just as easily be interpreted as a reference to a harvester and the harvesting of the wheat (Joel 3:13; Mk. 4:29), NOT judgment or adjudication. It could also just as easily be considered a symbol of wrath other than "sublime adjudication." It could also just as easily be considered a marker of pending celebration ala Dt. 16:9-10. The Revelation 14 passage stipulates a harvest. It also explicitly states the sickly is passed over the earth. Jesus never leaves heaven; he does not come to earth in that text. There are also two sickles! Neither are said to be "sublime adjudicators." I don't find anything at all "sublime" in the passage. There is one verse there mentioning judgment and it occurs before the judgments of later chapters (especially that of chapter 20). A simple survey of where and how scripture used the word "sickle" would have easily prevented this exchange.

Sound exegesis does not make stuff up.

Let me again point out the roles Jesus has is not a point of dispute.

What is disputed is that these characterize "four visions." There is no vision in Ephesians 1. There is only one mention of the word "head in the first three chapters of Revelation (Rev. 1:14) and it is a simple observation the Son of Man's hair on his head is white. The phrase "in his hand" is used throughout scripture simply to indicate possession, not headship. The lampstands are not only in his hands, but he also stands in their middle and walks among them. Furthermore, the word "vision" does not occur in the plural form anywhere in the book of Revelation and neither does the phrase "another vision." John does say, "and then I saw..." but these additions are all part of one vision, not four. In point of fact the word "vision" is used only once in Revelation and it is singular, not plural. So, two of the claims about the "four visions" turn out to be absolute absurdities once the scriptures themselves are examined.

So I again ask how it is extra-biblical inventions that add to the text are accepted and then considered worth the effort to teach or persuade others. Again, I reiterate: sound exegesis does not make up stuff.



Ultimately, I view Post 136 as a smokescreen. Several posts ago I examined the scriptures mentioned in Post 4 (Ps. 2 and 110, Dan. 9 and Zech 6) and showed what was posted about them was nowhere found in the texts themselves. I asked about that in Posts 116 and 117 and do not read anything addressing those concerns. Now I am being given more of the same, more man-made extra-biblical eisegetic interpretations (and none of the sources are cited), and the original errors have still not been addressed. I've posted scripturally accurate alternatives, and they too are ignored. I would like the contents of Posts 116 and 117 addressed, even if that address is a simple acknowledgement the verses cited do not state what Post 4 claims.

 

[Josheb]

The words `more likely` are speculation and not from scripture.

Yes, they are.

The word `saints` is used in scripture as to –

• Israel. (Ps. 30: 4, 31: 23 etc)
• Judah. (Hosea 11: 12 KJV)
• Body of Christ, believers, (Phil. 5 etc)
• Those martyred in the Gt, trib. (Rev. 15: 3)

Yes, it is. The one thing all those groups have in common is their being elect, members of a monergistically God-initiated covenant relationship whereby Christ and Christ alone is the promise seed. No one in the "Israel," the "Judah," the "body of Christ," and the martyred who is outside of Christ is a saint. There are poseurs stated to exist in the first three.

Not all Israel is Israel (Romans 9:6). Not all who call upon the name of Christ are known by him (Mt. 7:23). And the remnant of which Paul wrote was a remnant in his present time (Rom. 11:5).

Israel in Rev. 21: 12 refers to the Old Testament saints who `looked for a city` `whose builder and Maker is God. ` (Heb. 11: 10 & 16)

No, it does not. It refers to ALL the saints who looked forward to the promise of a city, a temple, not built with human hands. There are no Jews or Gentiles in Christ. It's odd that Hebrews 11:10 and 16 would be used to justify this misbegotten definition because the last verse of the chapter explicitly states,

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

The "us" is defined by the author as those to whom God has spoken through His son, those who inherent salvation, those gifted with the Holy Spirit according to God's will. They are Christins, converts to Christ and NOT Messiah-denying Jews. Every single person listed in chapter 11 is explicitly stated to be made perfect in the Church. None of the saints in Revelation are said to be Jews! The only two mentions of "Jews" in Revelation are those stating their affiliation with the "synagogue of satan" (see also John 8). So it is incorrect to say the saints of Revelation 21:12 are Old Testament saints. It is just wrong.

Again I repeat: 1) The book of Revelation was not written to Jews and 2) There are only three mentions of "Israel" in the entire book of Revelation and not a single one of them is explicitly about the nation-state of Israel or bloodline Israel. At best only one of the three could possibly be interpreted that way and it is not Rev. 21:12. All that verse states is the names of the twelve tribes are written on the walls of the city...... and that city comes down after the tribulation for which this op has no stipulated ending. How can an "overview" not include a beginning and an end? How can a "time frame" not have those?




So, again.....

The original points I made back at the beginning of the thread are completely ignored and instead I am given more eisegesis, extra-biblical, man-made interpretations that commit the same errors as the verses examined in Post 4. With each post this thread is increasingly become a thoroughly man-made invention. I would like to see the contents of Posts 116 and 117 addressed, even if the address is a simple acknowledgment the verses cited do not state what was claimed.

 

[Josheb]

The tribulation of Revelation has not `come and gone.`

It has if John was a partaker in it.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The church in Smyrna is stated to have already experienced the tribulation. Some of its members had been imprisoned (past-tense).

Revelation 2:9-10
I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

It does not say they will be cast into prison. It states they already had been imprisoned. John states he was a partaker in THE tribulation (as well as the kingdom and the perseverance that are in Christ). The Smyrna congregation was already experiencing tribulation. The tribulation had begun during John's lifetime and the life of the Smyrnan Christians. Jesus also ooked at his disciples and told them they would be handed over to tribulation.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Jesus did not say, "They will be handed over...." He explicitly stated, "You will be handed over and he told them that in direct answer to their inquiry regarding how they would know when the temple would be destroyed, the sign of his coming, and the end of the age (see 1 Cor. 10:11).

John experienced it and so did the Smyrnans, and the disciples were handed over to it. Since the tribulation is supposed to last only a literal seven years the end has also come and gone.

What the 7 churches have to overcome is false teaching –

• `left their first love. ` (Rev. 2: 4) `not holding fast to the Head. `(Col. 2: 19)
• `doctrine of Balaam,` (worldly) and the `Nicolaitans,` (lording it over) (Rev. 2: 14 & 15)
• Prophetess teaching immorality, (Rev. 2: 20)
• `dead,` no truth. (Rev. 3: 1)
• `unfaithful and false witness,` (Rev. 3: 17)

lol. One of them already had. They persevered in Christ, the text indicates they already possessed their crown, and were told they would be preserved.

Revelation 3:8-12
I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
.

And all those errors and false teachings are still with us today.

`that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,…but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head – Christ – (Eph. 4: 14 & 15)

Right!

So, either stop making scripture say things it does not actually state or stop accepting the extra-biblical man-made claims of others!


Please go back to Posts 116 and 117 and address the content of those posts Clams were made about Psalms 2 and 110, Zechariah 6 and Daniel 7 that are not supported by a plain reading of what is explicitly stated. Please do not add more unsubstantiated additions to scripture until the ones in Post 4 have been addressed, even if that address is to acknowledge the errors.

 

[Josheb]

It is Jesus who will defeat His enemies.

`The Lord (Jesus) is at Your (Father) right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath…` (Ps. 110: 5)

Oh my. That is backwards. Jesus is God''s right hand, seated at God's right hand. Go back and read it again.

`the Father ….has given Him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment also,….` (John 5: 27)

Yes, and according to Psalm 110 Jesus never leaves heaven until his Father (the LORD, not the Lord) has defeated all his enemies. Go read Revelation 20 and see where it states Jesus has come to earth for ANY of what is stated in that chapter.

It doesn't!

Jesus is in heaven the entire time all of Revelation up to chapter 22 happens. He does not come to earth until the new city descends. Nowhere does Revelation state Jesus is on earth during the 1000 years. Psalm 110 explains it. He is seated at his Father's right hand until his enemies are defeated by the LORD. The LORD does the defeating, not the Lord.

`Now out of His (Jesus) mouth goes a sharp sword that with it He should strike the nations ….` (Rev. 19: 15)

Yep. From heaven, not earth. Go re-read that chapter. Jesus is NOT said to come to earth in chapter 19.

`the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel or our Lord Jesus Christ.` (2 Thess. 1: 7 & 8)

That is correct: he is revealed from heaven; not earth.




Can I get you to address the contents of Posts 4, 116 and 117? Thx

Now you ask why the timeline ended with ch. 19. Good question. I was going on notes from former teachers.

Were any of the claims of any of those teachers ever questioned? Were any of their claims ever measured by the plain reading of what is written exactly as written? Or were these teachers trusted to correctly understand scripture because they seem like nice, knowledgeable people but, in reality, were trained by faulty teachers who passed on the mistakes of their faulty teachers without anyone from class to class ever examining the lessons with scripture in hand?

Then I worked out that diagram.

I hope you now see it has some errors in it.

But, yes, it would have been better to include the Lord`s return. Will try and rectify it. Thanks.

Yep. And not just the Lord's return but the point at which scripture states the tribulation begins. How can an overview or a time frame not have both beginning and end points, especially when what's being overviewed and time framed is said to last only seven years?

That certainly should have been a question asked of any teachers on the subject.

 

[Marilyn C]

Circular argument.

Eisegetic interpretation not actually stated in scripture.

Why buy the premises of other men when their claims about various verses are not what the verses actually state? Why expect others not to notice and to accept those additions without question? Really. I'd like to know the reason for accepting that (mal)practice.

Take, for example, the claim made about "in his hand is a sharp sickle." That could just as easily be interpreted as a reference to a harvester and the harvesting of the wheat (Joel 3:13; Mk. 4:29), NOT judgment or adjudication. It could also just as easily be considered a symbol of wrath other than "sublime adjudication." It could also just as easily be considered a marker of pending celebration ala Dt. 16:9-10. The Revelation 14 passage stipulates a harvest. It also explicitly states the sickly is passed over the earth. Jesus never leaves heaven; he does not come to earth in that text. There are also two sickles! Neither are said to be "sublime adjudicators." I don't find anything at all "sublime" in the passage. There is one verse there mentioning judgment and it occurs before the judgments of later chapters (especially that of chapter 20). A simple survey of where and how scripture used the word "sickle" would have easily prevented this exchange.

Sound exegesis does not make stuff up.

Let me again point out the roles Jesus has is not a point of dispute.

What is disputed is that these characterize "four visions." There is no vision in Ephesians 1. There is only one mention of the word "head in the first three chapters of Revelation (Rev. 1:14) and it is a simple observation the Son of Man's hair on his head is white. The phrase "in his hand" is used throughout scripture simply to indicate possession, not headship. The lampstands are not only in his hands, but he also stands in their middle and walks among them. Furthermore, the word "vision" does not occur in the plural form anywhere in the book of Revelation and neither does the phrase "another vision." John does say, "and then I saw..." but these additions are all part of one vision, not four. In point of fact the word "vision" is used only once in Revelation and it is singular, not plural. So, two of the claims about the "four visions" turn out to be absolute absurdities once the scriptures themselves are examined.

So I again ask how it is extra-biblical inventions that add to the text are accepted and then considered worth the effort to teach or persuade others. Again, I reiterate: sound exegesis does not make up stuff.



Ultimately, I view Post 136 as a smokescreen. Several posts ago I examined the scriptures mentioned in Post 4 (Ps. 2 and 110, Dan. 9 and Zech 6) and showed what was posted about them was nowhere found in the texts themselves. I asked about that in Posts 116 and 117 and do not read anything addressing those concerns. Now I am being given more of the same, more man-made extra-biblical eisegetic interpretations (and none of the sources are cited), and the original errors have still not been addressed. I've posted scripturally accurate alternatives, and they too are ignored. I would like the contents of Posts 116 and 117 addressed, even if that address is a simple acknowledgement the verses cited do not state what Post 4 claims.

Be patient for you have a lot of `accusations` that take time to be addressed.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh my. That is backwards. Jesus is God''s right hand, seated at God's right hand. Go back and read it again.

Yes, and according to Psalm 110 Jesus never leaves heaven until his Father (the LORD, not the Lord) has defeated all his enemies. Go read Revelation 20 and see where it states Jesus has come to earth for ANY of what is stated in that chapter.

It doesn't!

Jesus is in heaven the entire time all of Revelation up to chapter 22 happens. He does not come to earth until the new city descends. Nowhere does Revelation state Jesus is on earth during the 1000 years. Psalm 110 explains it. He is seated at his Father's right hand until his enemies are defeated by the LORD. The LORD does the defeating, not the Lord.

Yep. From heaven, not earth. Go re-read that chapter. Jesus is NOT said to come to earth in chapter 19.

That is correct: he is revealed from heaven; not earth.




Can I get you to address the contents of Posts 4, 116 and 117? Thx

Were any of the claims of any of those teachers ever questioned? Were any of their claims ever measured by the plain reading of what is written exactly as written? Or were these teachers trusted to correctly understand scripture because they seem like nice, knowledgeable people but, in reality, were trained by faulty teachers who passed on the mistakes of their faulty teachers without anyone from class to class ever examining the lessons with scripture in hand?

I hope you now see it has some errors in it.

Yep. And not just the Lord's return but the point at which scripture states the tribulation begins. How can an overview or a time frame not have both beginning and end points, especially when what's being overviewed and time framed is said to last only seven years?

That certainly should have been a question asked of any teachers on the subject.

The error would be mine not theirs. Again, be patient.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is not what either text states.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Christ's enemies are made a footstool, NOT brought to his footstool.

Psalm 2:1-3
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!"

No mention of being brought to Jesus' footstool for judgment.


Why are the words of scripture being changed and why is scripture being made to say things it does NOT state and cannot be made to say? Please answer that question.

Yes, the enemies are being brought to the Lord for His footstool. And that means judgment.

The enemies are clearly shown in Ps. 2: 1 - 3

`Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, AGAINST THE LORD AND HIS ANOINTED, (Jesus) saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us." (Ps. 2: 1 - 3)

 

[Marilyn C]

What is disputed is that these characterize "four visions." There is no vision in Ephesians 1. There is only one mention of the word "head in the first three chapters of Revelation (Rev. 1:14) and it is a simple observation the Son of Man's hair on his head is white. The phrase "in his hand" is used throughout scripture simply to indicate possession, not headship. The lampstands are not only in his hands, but he also stands in their middle and walks among them. Furthermore, the word "vision" does not occur in the plural form anywhere in the book of Revelation and neither does the phrase "another vision." John does say, "and then I saw..." but these additions are all part of one vision, not four. In point of fact the word "vision" is used only once in Revelation and it is singular, not plural. So, two of the claims about the "four visions" turn out to be absolute absurdities once the scriptures themselves are examined.

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person. There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

Christ the Head of the Body. (Rev. 1 - 3)

`And I saw in the midst of the 7 lampstands (churches) One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.` (Rev. 1: 13)

Here we see the Lord in the midst of the 7 churches. We read of His Character, His Counsel and His Authority in the detailed description.


The Lord Jesus Christ, the founder and perfector of the Church is now shown as its competent Head. He is shown walking amongst the seven golden lampstands. Each lampstand fitted on to a common base representing the complete Church, the Body of Christ. The number seven in Hebrew means complete.

Thus looking back through history we can see that these seven churches are an overview, showing the entire history of its development and conflict against the enemy, while displaying Christ`s competence to meet all challenges, finally culminating in the completing of the mature Body of Christ, His glorious Church.

Thus the Lord Jesus Christ directs John to write to these seven churches in Asia who are representative of all the local churches, the believers who are the Body of Christ.

Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.


The Lord addresses each group particularly, giving words of commendation and encouragement or chastisement and warnings. Christ then counsels each group presenting Himself in clarity and truth. The response is but to repent & obey His Holy Spirit.

Each church, each group of believers would be encouraged, comforted or challenged by the Lord`s discernment of them. Then down through the centuries as other believers read, they also could receive what Christ is saying by His Holy Spirit.


Now finally today there are believers who have left their first love, as did Ephesus, servants being martyred, as in Smyrna, others engrossed and overcome with worldly indulgences, and so on. But each phase has had a period when the outstanding characteristic that is stressed here has been the dominant aspect portrayed in church life.


Thus we see that the church of Laodicea, the final group of believers having to face `every wind of doctrine, ` being `tossed to and fro.` Yet the encouragement is to press on to maturity in Christ and to reach the unity of the faith (what we believe) and the knowledge of the Son of God. (Eph. 4: 13 – 16)

 

[Marilyn C]

Christ the Heir. (Rev. 4 – 7)

`…behold a throne set in heaven, and one sat on the throne, and He who sat there was like a jasper and sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.` (Rev. 4: 2 & 3)


The Jasper gem stone was the last on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Naphtali whose name means to prevail, to conquer - `I have prevailed.` (Gen. 30: 8)

Prevail – to gain the victory, to conquer. (The Concise English Dictionary)

Christ was the last Adam and He prevailed over the world, the flesh and the devil. He has secured the supreme victory over the greatest foe.


The Sardius gem stone was the first on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Judah. The prophetic word reveals that He would be the ruler over the other tribes. (Gen. 49: 8 - 12) The Hebrew `yadah,` (Judah) means to use the hand, indicating power and dominion.


The Emerald gem stone is also on the High Priest`s breastplate, and was for the tribe of Reuben. He was the first born of Jacob, and his heir. To the heir would be given three portions - the birthright, (double blessing), the priesthood and the kingdom.


`and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.` (Rev. 4: 3)


The `One` on the throne then is the High Priest of Heaven, the conqueror, the Sovereign Ruler and Heir of all the Father`s estates.

 

[Marilyn C]

Christ the Mediator. (Rev. 8 – 13)

God`s Mediator is now revealed as the High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary. He is shown in angelic form before the golden altar. This indicates the ceremony of the Day of Atonement for Israel.


`And another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. And he was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel`s hand.` (Rev. 8: 3 & 4)


The High Priest would take the blood from the outside altar and bring it to the golden altar, mix it with incense and fire. Then he would take it into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood and fire before the Ark of the Covenant.


This is a pictorial drama of what the Lord has already done and about to do. He has shed His blood as the sacrifice for the sins of the nation of Israel; He has offered His pure life as a fragrant offering, (incense); and now is about to cast the `blood and fire` to the ground in judgment upon the rebellious.


`And the angel took the incense, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thundering, lightnings, and an earthquake. ` (Rev. 8: 5)

The time for the purification of Israel and judgment upon the Nations has come.

Note the blowing of the trumpets was a priestly activity and thus we see Christ the High Priest controlling this from the heavenly sanctuary. It was only when Christ as the angel threw the fire to the earth that the 7 angels prepared to sound.

 

[Marilyn C]

Christ the Judge. (Rev. 14 – 22)

Here is the victorious Christ, the one who overcame the enemy. He is now shown pictorially, standing on Mount Zion in the heavenlies. This is the place of rulership and authority by the King and Judge.

`Then I looked, & behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, ` (Rev. 14: 1)

Christ`s Rulership is not that of a dictator or a tyrant or a proud conqueror but is again revealed to us in His true colours as the Lamb of God. This sacrificial character of Christ, is the criterion that undergirds all of His character and activities.


Christ is the Chief Justice of Heaven`s supreme court. His decisions are final and beyond His verdict there is no other court of appeal. He exercises the final prerogative that is essential to judgeship; He is able to kill and to make alive.

The prophet Daniel gives a good description of the heavenly court about the pass judgment upon the final Gentile world system.


`I kept looking until thrones were placed ...with the Judge, and the Ancient of days took His seat, whose garment was white as snow and the hair on His head like pure wool.

His throne was like a fiery flame; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire came forth from before Him: a thousand thousands ministered to Him and ten thousand times ten thousand rose up and stood before Him; the Judge was seated the court was in session...` (Dan. 7: 10 AMP)


How awesome the sight of the Ancient of days on His fiery throne with untold millions of angels before Him. This is the time when God will bring forth the judgments upon a sinful, rebellious world and it is the Son in whom the Father has committed this duty.

`For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,...` (John 5: 22)


The main official duty required of a judge is to act discreetly, wisely and justly in all decisions made. Thus we hear those who have overcome the beast, his image and his mark, singing –

`Just and true are Your ways, O King of the Nations! ....For Your judgments have been manifested. ` (Rev. 15: 3 & 4)


In the book of Revelation, we see Christ revealed as not only King over the nations but their Judge, executing the judgments of God upon them.

Satan, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet, the world`s armies, all are dealt with by the righteous Judge. But for those who turn to the `Lamb,` the one slain for them, they will be those who had victory over the beast, and receive life everlasting.

 

[Josheb]

Be patient for you have a lot of `accusations` that take time to be addressed.

Straw man. I did not accuse anyone of anything. What I did do is quote the scriptures cited in my posts for everyone to read and then compare what the scriptures state with what they were made to say. Where the two matched up I affirmed and confirmed the match. Where they did not match, I pointed out the disparity. I then asked for either an explanation or a correction.

When I receive on or the other I will them proceed with the conversation and inquire and comment in an op-relevant manner.



Waiting patiently (for something that should have been done many posts ago).

 

[Josheb]

Yes, the enemies are being brought to the Lord for His footstool.

No. That is STILL not what the text of Psalm 110 states. It states they will be made a footstool. It does NOT state they will be brought to him for a footstool. God already has a footstool. The entire earth is his footstool.

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?"

Matthew 5:34-35
But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king.

Jesus does not need two footstools. The text pf Psalm 110:1 does not state they are brought to him. It does not state they are his footstool. It does not state the footstool is judgment. What the psalm actually, explicitly, specifically states is that while he remains seated at his Father's right hand his scepter is extended from Zion. It states he rules in the midst of his enemies. In other words, he is ruling AND he has enemies AND he's ruling while they exist. The psalm explicitly and specifically states he is a Melchizedekian priest forever and the author of Hebrews tells us that has already happened (Heb. 5:10, 6:20). It is NOT a future yet-to-be-accomplished event any more than Jesus already NOW being king is a future yet-to-happen event. The psalm goes on to say kings will be shattered, nations will be judged and filled with corpses, and drinking from the brook he will lift up his head. Footstool is a symbol of subjugation and submission, not judgment. It also has meaning related to the works of men versus the works of God, a house built by human hands versus a house not built by human hands but built by God. Space does not permit me to post all that scripture but here is one example: in speaking about his building a temple for God (ignoring what God had told him in 2 Samuel 7), David said,

1 Chronicles 28:2
Then King David rose to his feet and said, "Listen to me, my brethren and my people; I had intended to build a permanent home for the ark of the covenant of the LORD and for the footstool of our God. So I had made preparations to build it.

Men do not build God's footstool. While the Old Testament Jews might have thought that was a good idea (even though they knew the earth is God's footstool), the reader of the New Testament recognizes its absurdity because the newer revelation repeated tells us God does not dwell in houses built by human hands.

Psalm 110 is quoted at least four times in the New Testament. Post 4 was astute citing it but Post 4 rendered it incorrectly. What I have just posted are the facts of scripture, not my personal or doctrinal opinions. They are the facts of scripture, not accusations. Saying Post 4 said things about Psalm 110 that are incorrect is a simple observation made after examining what was posted in objective comparison to what is stated in Psalm 110. Post 4 and Psalm 110 do not reconcile. Neither does Post 150 reconcile. An objective reading of the Psalm readily shows the enemies are not brought to him and a simple study of the word "footstool" in scripture readily shows the earth is His footstool and the imagery is one of ownership or subjugation and not merely judgment.

And that means judgment.

Not according to whole scripture.

The enemies are clearly shown in Ps. 2: 1 - 3

`Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, AGAINST THE LORD AND HIS ANOINTED, (Jesus) saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us." (Ps. 2: 1 - 3)

Look at what was just posted.

Psalm 110 does NOT state the enemies are brought to Jesus. Psalm 110 does not state the footstool means judgment. Psalm 110 explicitly states Jesus is seated at the LORD's right hand until all his enemies are defeated He sits enthroned in heaven and extends his scepter from Zion and the kings are kings are shattered and the nations judged and filled with corpses. From there a huge leap is take over to Psalm 2 where that text explicitly states, "the kings of the earth."

The kings are on earth.

• Jesus is enthroned in heaven as both King and High Priest in the Order of Mel.
• The kings are on earth.
• While still in heaven.... Jesus extends his scepter from Zion.
• His people volunteer freely in the day of his power.
• The kings are shattered, and the nations filled with corpses.

Psalm 2 does NOT remotely say, "He would bring the Lord`s enemies to His footstool, for judgment," as was claimed in Post 4. In fact, Psalm 2 does not use the word "judgment" once! It states the judges of the earth should take warning (vs. 2), worship God with reverence and rejoice with trembling. That is the only explicit mention of judgment in the entire Psalm.


And when combined with what I have already posted about Revelation..... chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation do NOT report Jesus ever coming to earth. What they do report is all that occurs in those chapters is done from heaven, NOT earth. Jesus is not said to come to earth in Revelation until the new city descends. Everything happening on earth throughout the book is commanded from heaven and executed (no pun intended ) on earth by either by men or angels - not Jesus.

That includes the 1000 years.

It has always been an inference that Jesus comes to earth during the millennium, something certain eschatologies infer and not something scripture actually states. The inferences are usually based on a biased reading of Old Testament prophets (like Zechariah) and not the New Testament. Nowhere does the book of Revelation state Jesus physically comes to earth until the new city descends. What is does state is that everything in the tribulation occurs while Jesus is still enthroned in heaven and the New Testament repeatedly tells us his enthronement has already been accomplished.

And that is very important because it tells us something about the time frame of the tribulation.


Let me suggest a very plain, simple, and fairly straightforward adjustment to your posts and your thinking on these matters: Testing, wrath and judgement are different. That's it. It's that simple. This can be observed in the fact God pours out wrath on people throughout the Bible BUT all of those people still have to stand before God for judgment. Sometimes the two overlap - temporal judgment begets temporal wrath - so we want to avoid separating the two to the point of erroneously creating a false dichotomy. Remember also: the judgment has already been rendered according to John 3:18-19. Every single one of those shattered kings have ALL already been condemned and the verdict rendered. Apart from Christ they will remain that way for all eternity. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1) but that does not mean we ALL will not stand before God to be judged. It is appointed for man to die once and then face judgment (Heb. 9:27). The judgment of those in Christ is much different than the judgment of those not in Christ, but all are judged.

Not all experience wrath. The tribulation is very much about testing, perseverance and faithfulness of the redeemed, not judgment. Both the condemned and the no-longer-condemned experience the travails of tribulation but one group does so in the context of redemption and the other in the context of condemnation.

So.....


When reading these passages about the tribulation try separating testing and wrath from judgment.

 

[EarlyActs]

John of Gischala was Simon bar Giora's competitor in that last year of the rebellion, and his followers didn't join forces with Simon's army until Titus showed up at Jerusalem in the spring of AD 70. Then they had a mutual enemy to do battle with. But Simon bar Giora exercised the upper hand of tyranny over Jerusalem from AD 69 until AD 70 because his army numbering about 40,000 was much larger than John's.

For the two thieves crucified with Christ, they were part of Barabbas' fellow Zealot conspirators, which Mark 15:7 wrote about. "And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection." These "malefactors", as Luke called them, had participated along with Barabbas in a sedition in the city. They were more than just local pickpockets. Those two were Zealot insurrectionists who were crucified with Christ that day.

OK, thanks, I missed that.

Have you studied the background of the term 'leistes' in the phrase 'den of thieves.' They were not pickpockets. They were mercenaries, using the money-changing to raise money--we would call it 'money-laundering.' See my book M. Sanford THE COVENANT REVOLUTION, Amazon.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Have you studied the background of the term 'leistes' in the phrase 'den of thieves.' They were not pickpockets. They were mercenaries, using the money-changing to raise money--we would call it 'money-laundering.'

I haven't made a study of that Greek word yet, but yes, I agree: the money-changers in Christ's days were most definitely "mercenaries" on behalf of their masters, the high priests, who were having them collect those fees when exchanging any foreign currency for the "mark of the Beast". This "mark" was the required Tyrian shekel that the high priesthood insisted everyone use for buying and selling sacrificial items in the Temple.

In a very real sense, yes, the money-changers were "money-laundering" all the foreign currency in exchange for the required "mark of the Beast" Tyrian shekel coins.

 

[Josheb]

Actually John of Gischala (in Galilee too) held control at the end.

What evidence that the other thief at the crucifixion was a zealot? It is plausible (2000 one day was the max) but I just wondered if it is a citation from Josephus.

John of Gischala was Simon bar Giora's competitor in that last year of the rebellion, and his followers didn't join forces with Simon's army until Titus showed up at Jerusalem in the spring of AD 70. Then they had a mutual enemy to do battle with. But Simon bar Giora exercised the upper hand of tyranny over Jerusalem from AD 69 until AD 70 because his army numbering about 40,000 was much larger than John's.

For the two thieves crucified with Christ, they were part of Barabbas' fellow Zealot conspirators, which Mark 15:7 wrote about. "And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection." These "malefactors", as Luke called them, had participated along with Barabbas in a sedition in the city. They were more than just local pickpockets. Those two were Zealot insurrectionists who were crucified with Christ that day.

Sounds like great tribulation to me .

 

[3 Resurrections]

Sounds like great tribulation to me .

For sure.