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Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

I did not say that I didn't. But I do not trust in myself to know what the Bible means by any given scripture just because I think that is what it says. I weigh and measure it with all else in the Bible , particularly in light of who God says He is and what He says He does. I do not trust that I have it all right, and I do not stop looking and listening. And I do not arrive at a particular belief or take one from someone else without checking it against scripture. And I have never arrived at a particular belief and rested there, satisfied that I need to look no farther, or entertain any other possibilities. If I ever stop growing in my knowledge and understanding then is when I will know I need to go before God and say "Teach me more of You. Show me more of You. I am careful to build on a solid foundation. And I never say, "Oh this is what this means." simply because I like it. It is truth I seek, not what is pleasing to my ears or my sensibilities.

So when I said what I did I was telling you the reason you think something doesn't make sense. It is because you cannot make sense of anything that is not what you already believe. You trust you. There was no need for the snide remark.
OK, I get it. You have put yourself on much higher plane of biblical study and knowledge than some of the rest of us poor slobs.
 
OK, I get it. You have put yourself on much higher plane of biblical study and knowledge than some of the rest of us poor slobs.
Lol. If you think a person acknowledging that they approach their life in Christ by doing what it is their duty to do is placing themselves on a higher plane of biblical study; if you think that it is accusing others of not doing so instead of explaining what our duty is in order to arrive at sound doctrine; then I am sorry for you.
 
Given that you are anthropomorphizing the brute creation, I would most definitely be interested in what you think that means. What should I look for in the oceans, the mountains, the forests, the sun, moon, stars, etc., to see and recognize the "anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19). What can we expect to observe when "the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Rom 8:21).
I would agree with you, JIM, on this point. There has been a lot of misunderstanding of what "every creature" means (not "the whole creation") that was waiting to be set free from bondage and delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God. The geological world and the animal kingdom are not the "children of God". That is a distinctly human term used in that Romans 8:21-23 text. In a perfect, newly-created world, the animal kingdom and the earth were put under the dominion of mankind, and always will be.

Animal death was part of the perfectly-designed food cycle from creation forward. Just because God emphasized that every green plant was given the land-dwelling animals for food does not mean that, before the Fall, spiders did not kill insects, that vultures did not eat flesh, that sharks did not prey on fish, etc. The eating of green herbs and seed-bearing plants didn't eliminate the eating of meat.
 
Given that you are anthropomorphizing the brute creation, I would most definitely be interested in what you think that means. What should I look for in the oceans, the mountains, the forests, the sun, moon, stars, etc., to see and recognize the "anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19). What can we expect to observe when "the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Rom 8:21).

So yes, I would like your explanation of all of that.
It is speaking of the natural creation that is awaiting for the redeemed to arrive at the fullness of their redemption and through them the restoration of all things.
My above quote is what you did not understand the meaning of. It concerns Romans 8:19-25. Those passages are themselves self explanatory and are exactly what that quote is saying.



19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
 
My above quote is what you did not understand the meaning of. It concerns Romans 8:19-25. Those passages are themselves self explanatory and are exactly what that quote is saying.



19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

If it clarifies anything, the late 1800s believed that a struggle to dominate was inherent in nature; the frontispiece of ORIGIN OF SPECIES said that racial domination was the nature of, well, nature. This may be the "corruption" of nature as secular man saw it, and it only resulted in the Third Reich and WW2. This is why there is a radical shift after WW2 about "nature" and all of a sudden it is fragile and needs to be protected, and secular man (read: massive global government) is the "savior." Among other incidents it lead to the hijacking of a 747 to Vancouver BC so the hijacker could have world attention that "the earth cannot survive the human species; the species must be eliminated." I traced a TIPS number in TV broadcasts there and it turned out to be a form of evidence destruction which Canadian "FBI" knew nothing about, when I called it in from my location across the WA border. Strange doings!

I was invited in the 90s to speak on this topic at the Am. Assoc. of Pop Culture and some of the material is in my OUR CLICHES... novel. https://www.amazon.com/Our-Cliches-Are-Doing-Thinking/dp/1480043524
 
My above quote is what you did not understand the meaning of. It concerns Romans 8:19-25. Those passages are themselves self explanatory and are exactly what that quote is saying.



19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
What in the whole of the Bible says that the Greek word "ktisis" in that passage should be translated/interpreted as "creation" rather than "creature"? That is the same word that appears in Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Clearly in that verse, Jesus is not telling us to go proclaim the gospel to the brute creation or even the non-human biological creation. There creation means, without a doubt, "mankind". So what is different in Romans 8? Common sense says there is no difference and in Romans 8, the meaning is self-explanatory and means the whole of mankind. It may just as readily be observed from verse 23 that the meaning of "ktisis" in the previous verses is the whole of mankind minus "we ourselves", i.e., the children of God.
 
I understand that.
But soul is soul and spirit is spirit.
And soul is immaterial as is spirit but there is distinction depending on the context.
Im hold to the trichotomy of created man. Man sinned, the human spirit died and man became a dichotomy and passed this condition down through the last man to be born when Christ returns.
When born again God creates a new human spirit in the person and man is restored to a three-fold image of God.
I have never read or heard of that description before. I don't believe it. I can't make any sense of it at all. I'll just leave it at that.
 
I have never read or heard of that description before. I don't believe it. I can't make any sense of it at all. I'll just leave it at that.
Those going to "hell" are dichotomy (body and soul) - not the tri-fold image of God:

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:27–28.

Those that are born again are trichotomy, or body, soul, human spirit:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:22–23.

When born again God creates a new human spirit which now allows the born again believer to communicate with God who is Spirit and to process spiritual phenomenon. Those dead in trespasses and sin do not have a human spirit but are only body and soul - no human sprit - and if they do not become born again remain body and soul and are at the appointed time cast into "hell."

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:24.

The word "created" transliterated back into Hebrew is the word "bara" meaning creating something out of nothing. It is used in Genesis of God creating something out of nothing as opposed to the Hebrew "tohu" meaning creating something out of something.
Bara is also the same word here:

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Rom. 8:20.

Another Scripture proving man was created sinful (vanity.)
But that's another subject.
 
What in the whole of the Bible says that the Greek word "ktisis" in that passage should be translated/interpreted as "creation" rather than "creature"? That is the same word that appears in Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Clearly in that verse, Jesus is not telling us to go proclaim the gospel to the brute creation or even the non-human biological creation. There creation means, without a doubt, "mankind". So what is different in Romans 8? Common sense says there is no difference and in Romans 8, the meaning is self-explanatory and means the whole of mankind. It may just as readily be observed from verse 23 that the meaning of "ktisis" in the previous verses is the whole of mankind minus "we ourselves", i.e., the children of God.
OK lets quote that verse again using your self devised hermeneutics. Romans 8:18-23 according to JIM.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For all mankind except we ourselves waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For all mankind minus we ourselves was subjected to futility not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope that all mankind minus we ourselves itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that all mankind has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only all mankind, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Does this line up with what we are told of the resurrection and the judgement of the wicked, followed by the new heaven and the new earth?



Also on Mark 16:15 "creation" does not mean "mankind" but all the nations of the earth.
kiois
STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc.; in the N. T. (Vulg. everywherecreatura (yet Hebrews 9:11creatio))
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.


 
OK lets quote that verse again using your self devised hermeneutics. Romans 8:18-23 according to JIM.
Ok, I get it. Arial uses biblical hermeneutics. If I disagree, then it is my self-devised hermeneutics. What a load of **************.
 
Christ did not die to rescue the brute creation or the dirt under our feet from a so-called "bondage of corruption". A representative MUST be of the same identity as the ones He is representing. God did not come to represent animals or dirt, or even the angels. He came and took on the flesh of mankind to redeem His elect who were in human flesh form.

Those who think the planet is groaning, waiting for its adoption as children of God are not interpreting Romans 8:19-23 correctly. This manner of thinking is the same way that environmentalists think - that man somehow has the ability to ruin this planet of ours, and that we need to keep throwing money at any kind of government program that will somehow "redeem" the dirt under our feet from our dominion of it.
 
Christ did not die to rescue the brute creation or the dirt under our feet from a so-called "bondage of corruption". A representative MUST be of the same identity as the ones He is representing. God did not come to represent animals or dirt, or even the angels. He came and took on the flesh of mankind to redeem His elect who were in human flesh form.
Wasn't man created from dirt? Actually, it was a composition of clay. Thus, the "moulding" and "shaping" is better understood in what He did in creating man from the "clay" of the ground.
Those who think the planet is groaning, waiting for its adoption as children of God are not interpreting Romans 8:19-23 correctly. This manner of thinking is the same way that environmentalists think - that man somehow has the ability to ruin this planet of ours, and that we need to keep throwing money at any kind of government program that will somehow "redeem" the dirt under our feet from our dominion of it.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [humankind]
waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God [covenant].
20 For the creature [humankind]
was made subject to vanity [or sinful],
not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope [in other words, God],
21 Because the creature [humankind]
itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [which man was created in]
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation [humankind/sons of God]
groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now [because "we" are now subjected the same in hope because of Messiah].
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit [covenant],
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom. 8:18–23.

I know I groan within myself. Sometimes vocally.
 
Ok, I get it. Arial uses biblical hermeneutics. If I disagree, then it is my self-devised hermeneutics. What a load of **************.
JIM why don't you address the post and not attack the poster? This type of thing is a blight on the forum. The fact is you used a method of determining what a verse means by no known method of hermeneutics, and the result is clearly seen in my "reproduction" of the verse done according to what you concluded. It has nothing to do with me.
 
Christ did not die to rescue the brute creation or the dirt under our feet from a so-called "bondage of corruption". A representative MUST be of the same identity as the ones He is representing. God did not come to represent animals or dirt, or even the angels. He came and took on the flesh of mankind to redeem His elect who were in human flesh form.

Those who think the planet is groaning, waiting for its adoption as children of God are not interpreting Romans 8:19-23 correctly. This manner of thinking is the same way that environmentalists think - that man somehow has the ability to ruin this planet of ours, and that we need to keep throwing money at any kind of government program that will somehow "redeem" the dirt under our feet from our dominion of it.
Your view of God's eternal purpose is too small. Is this creation in its entirety subject to the actions of fallen man? God is redeeming His creation through man, the one that wrecked havoc in in. He is redeeming a people for Himself and when all is said and done, there will be a new heaven and a new earth void of sin and sinners and all forms of evil. And not only that, the human inhabitants will be incorruptible and immortal.

Recognizing this is in no way equal to that of the environemntalists. Even though it is man who ruined this planet, it is because of the fall, because he is a sinner, not because of greenhouse gasses. And nothing man does can fix it. But God will fix it. The environmentalist does not even take God into consideration.
 
JIM why don't you address the post and not attack the poster? This type of thing is a blight on the forum. The fact is you used a method of determining what a verse means by no known method of hermeneutics, and the result is clearly seen in my "reproduction" of the verse done according to what you concluded. It has nothing to do with me.
[Edited. About the poster and not the post.] It doesn't take any real extensive knowledge of hermeneutics to know that rocks, hills, oceans, mountains, stars, etc. are not anxious about anything, are not waiting for anything to happen, are not in bondage to anything, and do not groan in the pains of childbirth.
 
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[Edited. About the poster and not the post.] It doesn't take any real extensive knowledge of hermeneutics to know that rocks, hills, oceans, mountains, stars, etc. are not anxious about anything, are not waiting for anything to happen, are not in bondage to anything, and do not groan in the pains of childbirth.
Or that God doesn't have hands, doesn't speak in thunder, has a literal storehouse where He keeps the snow, has a sword coming out of His mouth etc. Figures of speech convey and idea. To relate it back to your assertion that creation in Rom 8 refers to all mankind----not all humans are groaning and the unsaved certainly aren't waiting for the fulness of the redemption of the believer, and certainly not with hope.
 
our view of God's eternal purpose is too small. Is this creation in its entirety subject to the actions of fallen man? God is redeeming His creation through man, the one that wrecked havoc in in. He is redeeming a people for Himself and when all is said and done, there will be a new heaven and a new earth void of sin and sinners and all forms of evil. And not only that, the human inhabitants will be incorruptible and immortal.

Recognizing this is in no way equal to that of the environemntalists. Even though it is man who ruined this planet, it is because of the fall, because he is a sinner, not because of greenhouse gasses. And nothing man does can fix it. But God will fix it. The environmentalist does not even take God into consideration.
True, environmentalists as a general rule give no thought at all to the Creator. They assign mankind the role of god of his own world, with the supposed power to fix (or ruin) everything that they decide is an issue, whether real or imagined.

The curse put upon the ground due to Adam's fall was lifted after Noah left the ark. At that point of Noah's sacrifice to God, the Lord purposed that He would no longer curse the ground anymore for man's sake (Genesis 8:21). We are not waiting for a curse on the ground to be lifted in our future. That was already accomplished by God long ago.

And the New Heavens and New Earth are also here already, as Hebrews 12:26-27 said at that time that God had "NOW promised" in those days to shake not only the earth, but the heavens also, so that only unshaken things (like the New Covenant) would remain in place. This shaking process was performed in the first century, which established Isaiah's New Heavens and the New Earth at that time.

But that NHNE was not the culmination of God's plans for us. We now await the time when the planet will be purged - not of cursed, evil dirt under our feet - but of any remnants of human evil so that the world has nothing but godly, resurrected immortal and incorruptible saints populating it.

Neither the geological planet not the animal kingdoms need a redeemer. God would have had to come as a brute creature in order to do that. These things are all under the dominion of mankind whether mankind is in a glorified or a corrupted state.
 
So you think that it is not about all mankind but it is about all the rest of the entire creation. I wonder what really deep hermeneutics drives that interpretation. :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
[Edited. About the poster and not the post.] It doesn't take any real extensive knowledge of hermeneutics to know that rocks, hills, oceans, mountains, stars, etc. are not anxious about anything, are not waiting for anything to happen, are not in bondage to anything, and do not groan in the pains of childbirth.
Jim, I think you are wrong on this, as well as 3 Resurrections.

Consider the options: Creature, and in the 22nd, creation, can have no reference to the fallen angels, for they do not desire the manifestation of the children of God; this they dread, and, looking forward to it, tremble. Neither can it refer to the elect angels, of whom it cannot be said that they shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, for to this they were never subjected. It does not apply to men, all of whom are either the children of God or of the wicked one. It cannot refer to the children of God, for they are here expressly distinguished from the creation of which the Apostles speaks; nor can it apply to wicked men, for they have no wish for the manifestation of the sons of God whom they hate, nor will they ever be delivered from the bondage of corruption, but cast into the lake of fire.

It remains, then, that the creatures destitute of intelligence, animate and inanimate, the heavens and the earth, the elements, the plants and animals, are here referred to. The Apostle means to say that the creation, which, on account of sin, has, by the sentence of God, been subjected to vanity, shall be rescued from the present degradation under which it groans, and that, according to the hope held out to it, is longing to participate with the sons of God in that freedom from vanity into which it shall at length be introduced, partaking with them in their future and glorious deliverance from all evil.

This indeed cannot mean that the plants and animals, as they at present exist, shall be restored; but that the condition of those things which shall belong to the new heavens and the new earth, prepared for the sons of God, shall be delivered from the curse, and restored to a perfect state, as when all things that God had created were pronounced by Him very good, and when, as at the beginning, before sin entered, they shall be fully adapted to the use of man.

As men earnestly desire what is good, and, on the contrary, groan and sigh in their sufferings, the like emotions of joy and sorrow are here ascribed to the inanimate and unintelligent creation. In this way the prophets introduce the earth as groaning, and the animals as crying to God, in sympathy with the condition of man.
Joel 1~"The land mourneth, for the corn is wasted; the new wine is dried up; the oil languisheth, because joy is withered away from the sons of men! How do the beasts groan! The beasts of the field cry also unto Thee!"

Jeremiah 12:4~"The earth mourneth and fadeth away; the world languishes and fadeth away; the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled, under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth. The new wine mourneth; the wine languisheth!"
Read Isaiah 24:4-7; Isaiah 13:13. 33:8, 34:4 Isaiah 48:13 Psalms 98:4-6, etc.

Thus, in the language of Scripture, the sins of men cause the creation to mourn; but the mercy of God, withdrawing His rebukes, causeth it to rejoice.

Vanity~ What is called vanity in the 20th verse, is in the 21st denominated bondage of corruption. When the creation was brought into existence, God bestowed on it His blessing, and pronounced everything that He had made very good. Viewing that admirable palace which He had provided, He appointed man to reign in it, commanding all creation to be subject to him whom He had made in His own image. But when sin entered, then, in a certain sense, it may be said that all things had become evil, and were diverted from their proper end. The creatures by their nature were appointed for the service of the friends of their Creator; but since the entrance of sin they had become subservient to His enemies. Instead of the sun and the heavens being honored to give light to those who obey God ,and the earth to support the righteous, they now minister to rebels. The sun shines upon the wicked, the earth nourishes those who blaspheme their Maker; while its various productions, instead of being employed for the glory of God, are used as instruments of ambition, of avarice, of intemperance, of cruelty, of idolatry, and are often employed for the destruction of His children.
All these are subjected to vanity when applied by men for vain purposes. This degradation is a grievance to the works of God, which in themselves have remained in allegiance. They groan under it, but, keeping within their proper limits, hold on their course. Had it been the will of the Creator, after the entrance of sin, the creature might have refused to serve the vices, or even the necessities of man. This is sometimes threatened. In reproving the idolatry of the children of Israel, God speaks as if He intended to withdraw His creatures from their service, in taking them entirely away.
Hosea 2:9~"Therefore will I return and take away My corn in the time thereof, and My wine in the season thereof, and will recover My wool and My flax given to cover her nakedness",

Habakkuk 2:11~"And sometimes the creature is represented as re-claiming against the covetousness and wickedness of men. ‘The stone shall cry out of the wall,and the beam out of the timber shall answer it,’

The whole creation, then, groaneth together, and is under bondage on account of the sin of man, and has suffered by it immensely. As to the inanimate creation, in many ways it shows its figurative groaning, and the vanity to which it has been reduced. "Cursed is the ground for thy sake; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee." It produces all noxious weeds, and in many places is entirely barren. It is subject to earthquakes, floods, and storms destructive to human life, and in various respects labors under the curse pronounced upon it. The lower animals have largely shared in the sufferings of man. They are made "to be taken and destroyed," 2nd Peter 2:12, and to devour one another. They have become subservient to the criminal pleasures of man, and are the victims of his oppressive cruelty. Some partake in the labors to which he is subjected; and all of them terminate their short existence by death, the effect of sin. All that belongs to the creation is fading and transitory, and death reigns universally. The heavens and the earth shall wax old like a garment. The earth once perished by water, and now it is reserved unto fire. "The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. The heavens being on fire shall be dissolved." The cause of this subjection to vanity is not from their original tendencies, or from any fault in the creatures. They have been so subjected, not willingly, not owing to any natural defect or improper disposition in themselves, but by reason of the sin of man, and in order to his greater punishment.

May come back and add more~but I think enough has been said. Much indebted to Robert Haldane and others labors before him.
 
The curse put upon the ground due to Adam's fall was lifted after Noah left the ark. At that point of Noah's sacrifice to God, the Lord purposed that He would no longer curse the ground anymore for man's sake (Genesis 8:21). We are not waiting for a curse on the ground to be lifted in our future. That was already accomplished by God long ago.
That was not what I said or meant. There is however ample evidence that mankind is destructive to creation. including what we do to one another.
Neither the geological planet not the animal kingdoms need a redeemer. God would have had to come as a brute creature in order to do that. These things are all under the dominion of mankind whether mankind is in a glorified or a corrupted state.
I don't know that I even implied such a thing. The non human creation is not being redeemed from sin but is going to be set free of the effects of our sin. He is restoring it, but it will also be new. I do not believe that has already happened and not something I want to debate. Also the creation is not evil, dirt is not evil. That was never my point or position.
 
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