Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[JIM]

You do however trust your interpretation of the Bible,

And that is all you can claim as well. If you think otherwise you are delusional.

 

[JIM]

This thing you and others call spiritual death is accurate but that is not the entire story. It did affect the physical life of all people---they all die, and they all die of something. Vegetation dies, animals die, everything dies.

Yes, because that is the way that God created it. That has nothing to do about Adam's sin. Adam died spiritually because and when he sinned. He died physically because God ejected him from the Garden and he no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life which is what could have kept his mortal body alive forever (Gen 3:22)

What Adam did rocked all of creation. Christ came to redeem it through the redemption of the one who wrecked it---man. It is not an indirect effect. It is a direct effect. All of creation is groaning as it awaits our redemption. (Romans 8.)

The interpretation there of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] can either be translated/interpreted as creation or creature. Creature, i.e., mankind, is the best meaning for that passage. The non-biological creation does not suffer anxious longing; nor does any biological creation except mankind.

So as I said, Jesus was not born in Adam. Did not have the seed of Adam in Him, and in that way was not like Adam's children who are all born with the nature they got from their father---born a sinner.

Of course Jesus was born in Adam. He was human which is all that is meant by the term "in Adam". Mary was in Adam, thus Jesus was in Adam. The very idea that dead spirits come by procreation through the father is just pure poppycock. It is but one more of those Calvinesque constructs fabricated to support a heresy.

 

[Arial]

Yes, because that is the way that God created it. That has nothing to do about Adam's sin. Adam died spiritually because and when he sinned. He died physically because God ejected him from the Garden and he no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life which is what could have kept his mortal body alive forever (Gen 3:22)

He was ejected from the Garden because He sinned and could not be allowed to live forever. Take a look at creation as given in Gen. before you say God created everything to die. Everything, even today's carnivores ate vegetation. We didn't eat the animals. They were not afraid of us and they did not harm us. And if what you say is true why is it that all of creation groans by what God subjected it to because of us, awaiting the fullness of our redemption? (Romans 8) You superimpose your own ideas onto creation. Things that are not said.

 

[Arial]

And that is all you can claim as well. If you think otherwise you are delusional.

I did not say that I didn't. But I do not trust in myself to know what the Bible means by any given scripture just because I think that is what it says. I weigh and measure it with all else in the Bible , particularly in light of who God says He is and what He says He does. I do not trust that I have it all right, and I do not stop looking and listening. And I do not arrive at a particular belief or take one from someone else without checking it against scripture. And I have never arrived at a particular belief and rested there, satisfied that I need to look no farther, or entertain any other possibilities. If I ever stop growing in my knowledge and understanding then is when I will know I need to go before God and say "Teach me more of You. Show me more of You. I am careful to build on a solid foundation. And I never say, "Oh this is what this means." simply because I like it. It is truth I seek, not what is pleasing to my ears or my sensibilities.

So when I said what I did I was telling you the reason you think something doesn't make sense. It is because you cannot make sense of anything that is not what you already believe. You trust you. There was no need for the snide remark.

 

[Arial]

None.
The image of God is Christ.
There is no better image of God than a Son:

Let me put the question back up. You left it off for some reason.

Lets look at image as being a facsimile or reflection of. Which of the following is most closely like God in His created world?
Tree
Dog
Man

Now answer it.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:1–3.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col. 1:13–15.

Different use of image than when God says He made man in His image and likeness.
These two concerning Jesus are affirming His deity. Man is not deity, and being the image and likeness of God is not giving man deity.
Christ is both man and God. Son of God, Son of man.

 

[Arial]

They were able as sinners created sinful to stand before a Holy God because a "lamb was slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world" (Rev. 13:8 ), in the same way the high priest can stand before a Holy God AFTER making sacrifice and cleansing for his sins.
I am beginning to see you haven't given this any serious deep thought because I have.

So, tell me...before God created the heavens, earth, and man, a lamb was slain. WHY?
WHY did God see the need to slay a Lamb BEFORE He created anything?
I know you never thought this through.
So, tell me: Why did God slay a lamb before creating anything?
Here's some Scriptures to help you stay biblical.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:7–8.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Jn. 17:24.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Lk. 11:49–50.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb. 4:3.

Scripture reveals some serious things went on BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man.
I know you've never thought on these things but now's your chance.
It's TIME to be edified and sharpened!
And jeremiah is going to lay the foundation [of the world] in front of you to think it through,
If you want to learn something instead of textbook answers.

I will wade through the ad hominem you use to exalt yourself and discredit me to bolster your argument, and deal with the what you say later. I am going for a long walk on this perfect Fall evening, before the sun goes down.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I have been telling you exactly what Paul is telling you in these scriptures. You don't hear Paul so you certainly won't hear me if I tell you again.
But I will say this: Paul is talking about our natural state, after the fall of Adam. Not Adam's before he fell. And his focus is on the resurrection and how if their is no resurrection of Christ, there will be no resurrection for anyone. Our bodies of flesh will be sown, (buried) a natural body, and it will be raised a spiritual body. Just as it was with Jesus.

We are not being conformed into the image of Adam after the fall. We are being conformed by the the image with which mankind---through Adam before the fall---in which God created him. This is being done in and through Christ and the believers union with Christ. Christ, as one of us, did indeed bear that image with which man was created. But He did it as one of us, suffered as one of us, died as one of us. The us who are in the fallen Adam.

Lets look at image as being a facsimile or reflection of. Which of the following is most closely like God in His created world?
Tree
Dog
Man

You think an act of sin is a "fall?"
Sin comes from sinner.
True today as it was true in the Garden.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You have nothing to support your claim that God created Adam a sinner. If he was created a sinner then he had no choice but to sin.If that were the case there would be no need for the enticements to sin be in the Garden.

How's this for 'enticements"

14 But every [wo]man is tempted, when he is drawn away of [her] own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 Jn. 2:16.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen. 3:6.

[edited for personal insults ]

You do know that James 1:14 applies to Jesus in the desert when He was tempted, right? But that's another post. I think I'll post that after I respond to you. You'll see you're in good majority with others that prefer to hold on to their pet theories instead of allowing the Word of God to inform their beliefs.

No need for him to receive a command and no way of redemption either. You are in effect saying God created a sinful creature and then sent His Son to die in order to make him not a sinful creature.

That's exactly it. On the other hand, let's look at the alternative to what you said:
IF Adam was created holy (like Christ) and/or he was Righteous (like Christ), and/or he was sinless (like Christ) why tempt him at all? Adam's result would be like the second Adam (Christ) and he would have succeeded in overcoming his temptation (but Adam wasn't tempted, the woman was), and he would have put everyone to an open shame (like Christ) and defeated temptation in the Garden (like Christ in the desert) and everyone would be born holy, and righteous, and sinless (like Christ) and we'd all be in heaven (like Christ) and there'd be a different outcome for humanity: no sin, no death, no wars, no suffering, no atomic bombs, not Israel/Arab wars, and a chicken in every pot. That's the world we'd live in IF Adam and the woman were created holy, and righteous, and sinless as you believe. There would be no sin at all (being tempted is not a sin.)
What a true and complete fairy tale.
Either Adam and the woman had the perfect, holy, righteous, and sinless nature of Christ then he would have overcome the temptation (like Christ) and that would be the end of it.
But IF Adam and the woman were created sinful meaning "missing the mark" of the glory of God, and by virtue of this creation sinned against God then sin comes from sinner and my position is PROVEN AGAIN.
[edited by mod]


There you go with the "acts" of sin. Again.
God used the Tree to give Adam and the woman the KNOWLEDGE of their sinful, evil 'make up.' The tree didn't make them sinful. There was no physical or existential metamorphosis, and they didn't change [nor their nature] from holy and righteous into a sinful sinner when they ate from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of [their] Good and [their] Evil.

Oh don't kid yourself.
Adam was created with the ability to sin (capable of sinning) and with an equal ability to not sin. He would not have become a sinner unless/until he did sin. Which he did. That is when Adam became a sinner, and all his children with him. You say God created Adam as a sinner.

I have PROVEN my point and position.
God created man (Adam) sinful.

 

[JIM]

He was ejected from the Garden because He sinned and could not be allowed to live forever.

Yes that is clear from what God said. But you fail to understand that it was the tree of life in the Garden that had the potential to keep their mortal bodies from dying. That is why God ejected them from the Garden.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Take a look at creation as given in Gen. before you say God created everything to die. Everything, even today's carnivores ate vegetation.

Do you seriously believe that the digestive systems of today's carnivores changed when Adam sinned? What did the fish in the seas eat before Adam sinned. I don't know where that nonsense began concerning there being only vegetarian, but that is not biblical and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you think fish ate? And how about snakes and most other reptiles. Even most birds are not vegetarian.

We didn't eat the animals. They were not afraid of us and they did not harm us. And if what you say is true why is it that all of creation groans by what God subjected it to because of us, awaiting the fullness of our redemption? (Romans 8) You superimpose your own ideas onto creation. Things that are not said.

As I have explained elsewhere the meaning of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] in the passage in Romans 8 can either be creation or creature. Given that the non-biological creation cannot experience anxiety, futility or suffer pains of childbirth, and given that even the biological creation, except for human beings, cannot experience anxiety and futility either, then the only acceptable translation/interpretation is creature, not creation. Also, verse 23 even suggests that verses 18-22 is actually speaking of the non-saved humanity in the world.

 

[Arial]

Yes that is clear from what God said. But you fail to understand that it was the tree of life in the Garden that had the potential to keep their mortal bodies from dying. That is why God ejected them from the Garden.

What makes you think I don't understand that. If you had heard what I said you would know I do understand it, as that is what I said. And what does that have to do with Adam's sin imputed to mankind?

Do you seriously believe that the digestive systems of today's carnivores changed when Adam sinned? What did the fish in the seas eat before Adam sinned. I don't know where that nonsense began concerning there being only vegetarian, but that is not biblical and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you think fish ate? And how about snakes and most other reptiles. Even most birds are not vegetarian.

I believe nothing is impossible for God. Someone might ask you the question "Do you seriously think all that is came to be by some being speaking it into existence?" or "Do you seriously think a virgin can conceive and give birth to a child?"

But look what it says In Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

As I have explained elsewhere the meaning of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] in the passage in Romans 8 can either be creation or creature. Given that the non-biological creation cannot experience anxiety, futility or suffer pains of childbirth, and given that even the biological creation, except for human beings, cannot experience anxiety and futility either, then the only acceptable translation/interpretation is creature, not creation. Also, verse 23 even suggests that verses 18-22 is actually speaking of the non-saved humanity in the world.

Ever hear of figures of speech? It is merely an expression of what mankind in his sinfulness has done to the planet and everything on it. It suffers.
v. 23 And not only the creation but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

No. That does not make 18-22 refer to the unsaved.

 

[jeremiah1five]

One does not cancel the other out.

They are not even in competition. One is true the other is a lie.

The first is "right now" the second is "not yet" and "right now". We still have that nature. In the future we will not have that nature, right now, it cannot condemn us anymore that our sins can.

If it cannot condemn us, and death is the punishment for sin, then why do we still fill in the holes at Cemetaries? WHY do we still die as punishment for sin? And death IS STILL the punishment for sin.
Answer that.

The Holy Spirit has always been. And He has always been around and working in people.
"God's people" is not restricted to ethnic/geopolitical Israel.

Yes, God does and God has.
The Abrahamic Covenant was a family covenant RESTRICTED to his family line. It went from father (Abraham) ---> son (Isaac) ---> grandson (Jacob) ---> great-grandsons (twelve tribes/sons) ---> more great-great-great grandsons (children of Israel/bloodline).
Did I miss someone? The Abrahamic Covenant was begun as a Hebrew lineage into what is now called a Jewish [Judah] heritage. A family covenant and that is the history of God's redemption to His Bride, His Church, His apple of His eye, His Betrothed, Israel.
Show me in the prophecy and covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 God mentioning Gentiles in the New Covenant.
Show me in the Law, the Psalms, and Prophets God making a redemptive covenant with Gentiles as He did with Jews. Go ahead. Show me the Scripture (and the money!)

The Bible tells us then in the NT which interprets those prophecies in the OT. But it seems you are no more aware of or willing to accept that than the Pharisees when Jesus rebuked them for not understanding or believing the Law and the Prophets. (OT) But that conversation does not belong in this one and you have plenty of other threads that deal with it.

I agree. But in the OT God made no New Covenant covenant with Gentiles. So, if the Jewish Christian writers of the New Covenant are writing to Jewish Christians in the first century and are "interpreting" the New Covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and in this original promise there are NO GENTILES mentioned, WHY do the NT writers include Gentiles in the Jeremian covenant when the Scripture doesn't even mention those uncircumcised Philistines? I'd say either the writers are not being honest with the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, or their "interpretations" are in error, or today's Gentile Christian interpreters are in error and mis-interpreting the OT.
Which is it?

Here is a bit of history and application on Psalm 8 from the notes in my study Bible.

[edited because of personal insults]

"The subject of this creation hymn is the majesty of God revealed in the created order and the majesty of humanity, God's supreme creation. The psalm is arranged concentrically; the majesty of God's name (verse 1a) heaven (1b-3) the central question( v.4)earth (5-8) and the majesty of God's name (v 9) The structure teaches the centrality of humanity and the ultimacy of deity. Verses 4-6 are applied to Jesus in Hebrews 2:6-8. He was perfect man as well as God. Jesus is the head of redeemed humanity and is restoring human dominion over creation. (Gen 1:28). See also 1 Cor 15:27 and Eph 1:22."

[edited because of personal insults]

 

[jeremiah1five]

I will wade through the ad hominem you use to exalt yourself and discredit me to bolster your argument, and deal with the what you say later. I am going for a long walk on this perfect Fall evening, before the sun goes down.

The night sky is even more glorious. I get to read the Gospel of God in the Stars.
The heaven does indeed declare the glory of God!

 

[JIM]

I believe nothing is impossible for God. Someone might ask you the question "Do you seriously think all that is came to be by some being speaking it into existence?" or "Do you seriously think a virgin can conceive and give birth to a child?"

Ah, there is a lot that is impossible for God. For example, He cannot lie. Pick anything that is referred to as an attribute of God. He cannot do or be otherwise. However, I don't really think that is what you meant. Nevertheless, there are many, probably unlimited, things that God could do, but He hasn't done them. So your response is actually a non sequitur.

But look what it says In Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

I have read about that quite a bit, though not recently. I would simply comment that the verse does not say that there were no carnivores that consumed meat.

Ever hear of figures of speech? It is merely an expression of what mankind in his sinfulness has done to the planet and everything on it. It suffers.
v. 23 And not only the creation but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Yes, believe it or not, I have heard of figures of speech. I do not believe Romans 8:18-23 is presenting a figure of speech. I think it is widely poorly translated/interpreted.

No. That does not make 18-22 refer to the unsaved.

Yeah it sort of does, at least inclusively.

 

[Arial]

Nevertheless, there are many, probably unlimited, things that God could do, but He hasn't done them. So your response is actually a non sequitur.

If it was a non sequitur it is because this was as that is what it was responding to.

Do you seriously believe that the digestive systems of today's carnivores changed when Adam sinned? What did the fish in the seas eat before Adam sinned. I don't know where that nonsense began concerning there being only vegetarian, but that is not biblical and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you think fish ate? And how about snakes and most other reptiles. Even most birds are not vegetarian.

But clever way to avoid what was said.

I have read about that quite a bit, though not recently. I would simply comment that the verse does not say that there were no carnivores that consumed meat.

It absolutely says that. What it does not say is that there were.

Yes, believe it or not, I have heard of figures of speech. I do not believe Romans 8:18-23 is presenting a figure of speech. I think it is widely poorly translated/interpreted.

So then you do believe that trees and what not groan? Who would be the widely poorly translated/interpreted ones? And why do you think whoever they are know less than you do?

Yeah it sort of does, at least inclusively.

It is speaking of the natural creation that is awaiting for the redeemed to arrive at the fullness of their redemption and through them the restoration of all things. How does that apply to the unredeemed? Other than that they will be gone forever, consigned to the pit of hell.

 

[Arial]

They are not even in competition. One is true the other is a lie.

The lie that distorts everything following it is that God created Adam as a sinner. Sin is much more than your watered down version of missing the mark. It is treason against the KING. It is open rebellion against the Almighty God who created and owns humanity. For God to create a being who was already that way would be to utterly deny Himself. And humanity would in no way be responsible for their own sin---not even Adam. It would be God who had to redeem Himself. Or man to somehow redeem Him. IOW there would be no redemption.

If it cannot condemn us, and death is the punishment for sin, then why do we still fill in the holes at Cemetaries? WHY do we still die as punishment for sin? And death IS STILL the punishment for sin.
Answer that.

That is the "not yet" part. The corruptible and corrupted must first die to be raised incorruptible and immortal. It is and has been covered in 1 Cor. The timeline for this to occur (the resurrection and restoration)is in God's purpose. He is still gathering His people out of the kingdom of darkness and bringing them into His kingdom.

If on the cross Jesus died to take away the sinful nature of Adam that we possess and not our acts of sin, and the Adam part being taken care of, why do we still die and why do we still sin?

Yes, God does and God has.
The Abrahamic Covenant was a family covenant RESTRICTED to his family line. It went from father (Abraham) ---> son (Isaac) ---> grandson (Jacob) ---> great-grandsons (twelve tribes/sons) ---> more great-great-great grandsons (children of Israel/bloodline).
Did I miss someone? The Abrahamic Covenant was begun as a Hebrew lineage into what is now called a Jewish [Judah] heritage. A family covenant and that is the history of God's redemption to His Bride, His Church, His apple of His eye, His Betrothed, Israel.
Show me in the prophecy and covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 God mentioning Gentiles in the New Covenant.
Show me in the Law, the Psalms, and Prophets God making a redemptive covenant with Gentiles as He did with Jews. Go ahead. Show me the Scripture (and the money!)

This is completely off topic and sounds like a jealous rant over not being the only and if not the only the first and best. I am just saying what it sounds like because though the lineage is correct the conclusion of a Gentile covenant made with Jew and Gentile, making of the two one, not being made by God through Christ, is unbiblical. Not all those above are of Abraham. Believers, Jew and Gentile alike are are of the other covenant made with Abraham, the one not concerning possession of a certain land mass. The covenant of faith being counted as righteousness.

But this is the last post of this type in this thread I will respond to and I will check with mods to edit it out, as it is not applicable to the OP and is adequately being dealt with in other threads.

 

[Arial]

You think an act of sin is a "fall?"
Sin comes from sinner.
True today as it was true in the Garden.

Do you think an act of sin is merely missing the mark? It is high treason against the King.
If God created a sinner then He commits treason against Himself.
Adam was not created already a sinner. He was created as rational being, with a will, makes choices and decisions. He was created capable of making a decision that was sinful. He was created a being who was corruptible but not corrupt. As able to die if removed from the source of life. The penalty for transgressing the commandment of God to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was death. He ate of that tree and having done so became an actual sinner. Now all born of Adam are sinners. It is not difficult to see. I don't have any idea why it is so important to you that God created a sinner, instead of one who became as sinner.

 

[Arial]

They were able as sinners created sinful to stand before a Holy God because a "lamb was slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world" (Rev. 13:8 ), in the same way the high priest can stand before a Holy God AFTER making sacrifice and cleansing for his sins.

Rev 13:8 can also be rendered "written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" as it is in Rev 17:8. In any case, Jesus wasn't slain before He was slain. The fact that He would be was ordained before the foundation of the world.

I am beginning to see you haven't given this any serious deep thought because I have.

Ad hominem fallacy. It assumes the one posting it is a higher authority and more intelligent and diligent than the one being posted to, and uses itself as its own authority. I give no attention of credibility to such remarks that are used to validate what one says. And you need to stop doing it because it is about the poster and not the post. (There is an or else in there. They will be deleted, and/or you will receive demerit warnings, and/or be temporarily banned. Repeated ignored warnings to abide by the rules may result in permanent banning.)

So, tell me...before God created the heavens, earth, and man, a lamb was slain. WHY?

See above. Which will make whatever follows in that regard moot.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:7–8.

Already dealt with above.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4.

Yes He knew before the foundation who He would make holy in Christ.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Jn. 17:24.

Yes, He was always with the Father and loved by the Father. Do you believe the "whom thou ast given me" part?

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Lk. 11:49–50.

FROM the foundation of the world.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26.

SINCE the foundation of the world. (Which is what He didn't do.) Heb 9:25-26 just to make the middle of a sentence you quote clear with its context Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not His own, for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. DId you just look up all the scriptures that contained the phrase "foundation of the world" and then pasted them without reading them? And did you think I wasn't paying attention?

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb. 4:3.

FROM the foundation of the world. I thought we were talking about before the foundation of the world. Is that not how it began?

Scripture reveals some serious things went on BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man.

That things went on before our world was created goes without saying, God being God and all. You know---self existent and eternal. It does not take a brilliant intellect to know that. Some things He did reveal and no doubt there is much more He did not reveal.

I know you've never thought on these things but now's your chance.

How could you possibly know that? To think one does goes far beyond the weak ad hominem to claim omniscience. Try and support your position without the use of lowering another down to a level that you can appear to tower over, by making false and unknowable statements about them.

It's TIME to be edified and sharpened!
And jeremiah is going to lay the foundation [of the world] in front of you to think it through,
If you want to learn something instead of textbook answers.

Well! If that isn't the cat's meow. Let me see. jeremiah is the be all and do all. We now know that all other writers and thinkers, and actual theologians, scholars and those who dedicated their entire lives, putting pen to feather tip by lamplight, and through all the ages following, can't hold a candle to jeremiah's superior insight and intellect. We now know that we should pay attention to only him (or at least until someone greater comes along and announces---all you who have been following the wisdom and teaching of jeremiah, hear this: set him aside and hear only ME).

Arrogance and pomposity have at last stepped forward out of the shadows and successfully though, not intentionally, issued the warning: Do not listen to what this one puts forth. It takes only the undeveloped discernment of a brand new Christian to recognize that such a one is not likely to even care whether what they say is true or not. They are worshiping themselves. Seeking gullible followers.

I would have just seen if a mod thought that should be edited out but, since you revealed yourself so brilliantly, I decided we should see you. Among other things, it is a personal insult to everyone on the forum who disagrees with you at any point.

 

[JIM]

It is speaking of the natural creation that is awaiting for the redeemed to arrive at the fullness of their redemption and through them the restoration of all things.

What does that even mean?

 

[Arial]

What does that even mean?

You really don't know?

Do you really want me to tell you?

 

[JIM]

You really don't know?

Do you really want me to tell you?

Given that you are anthropomorphizing the brute creation, I would most definitely be interested in what you think that means. What should I look for in the oceans, the mountains, the forests, the sun, moon, stars, etc., to see and recognize the "anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19). What can we expect to observe when "the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Rom 8:21).

So yes, I would like your explanation of all of that.