A walk through Ephesians 1 - 2 ?

[Carbon]

I never read passages as though theories from centuries later were already there.

Explain?


Thanks

 

[EarlyActs]

Explain?


Thanks

Don't read a passage trying to decide between two theories about it from 17 centuries later. Just read it. The Bible is full of not fitting.

"Are you for us or against us?" The angel of the Lord answered: "I am the captain of the armies of the Lord." --Joshua

"The time is coming and now is when you will worship neither in this mountain or that; for the Father seeks those who worship in Spirit and truth." --Jn 4

"Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but rather, a new creation." --Gal 5

"The will of the Father is that everyone who looks to the Son will have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day." --Jn 6.

 

[makesends]

My THOUGHT: I wish Paul wrote in shorter, simpler and clearer sentences.

My thought on your commentary: The sentence does not end there ("even as he chose us"):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So what does it mean, exactly, to be "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world."

• Is Paul saying the choice was made by God of individuals "us - plural" who are to be saved by being placed in Christ and God chose these specific individuals before He made the world?
• Is Paul saying that before the world was made, God chose Christ (specifically "in Christ") as the method by which individuals (collectively) would be saved ... which is a blessing for those that will reside in Christ?

One is 100% REFORMED and the other is 100% ARMINIAN Compatible.

Was Paul deliberately "clear as mud" for some Holy Spirit inspired reason?

When I was a kid, in "Language" class we learned to diagram sentences; with Paul, we have to do a flowchart. But believe it or not, I think it was the lawyer schooling at one or more of the Ivy League universities, they actually used Romans to teach logic. Yes, that was MANY years ago.

 

[fastfredy0]

Being predestined for adoption does not have to be of the reformed view.

Being adopted is always the choice of the parent (God in this case) and thus the analogy favors the reformed view point.

 

[fastfredy0]

My THOUGHT: I wish Paul wrote in shorter, simpler and clearer sentences.

Amen ... with a dictionary to define words. I suppose God determines the degree to which each of us understands so that might mute our suggestions for a rewrite.

Was Paul deliberately "clear as mud" for some Holy Spirit inspired reason?

Thanks for making it "clear as mud" for me @atpollard .... I saw the verses clearly until you had to stir it up with another possibility. *hits Atpollard with a wet, disciplinary noodle*

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for making it "clear as mud" for me @atpollard .... I saw the verses clearly until you had to stir it up with another possibility. *hits Atpollard with a wet, disciplinary noodle*

There is an old joke about any time you get two Jewish men together, you will get three different opinions … I think I might have been born as two Jewish men because I can’t help but see three sides to every argument.

 

[fastfredy0]

There is an old joke about any time you get two Jewish men together, you will get three different opinions … I think I might have been born as two Jewish men because I can’t help but see three sides to every argument.

Oh gee ... and I've been depending upon him for clarity. "Woe is me for mine ears have listened to Atpollard". *giggles*

 

[atpollard]

Oh gee ... and I've been depending upon him for clarity. "Woe is me for mine ears have listened to Atpollard". *giggles*

So, is light a particle or a wave?
Is Schrödinger's cat dead or alive?


[Therein lies the flaw in simple binary answers.]

 

[fastfredy0]

So, is light a particle or a wave?
Is Schrödinger's cat dead or alive?

I have @makesends talking about God's POV (my thoughts are not your thoughts) and "already and not yet"
... and now you add to the confusion. I'd never heard of Schrödinger's cat. I did study quantum mechanics. The Star Trek Next Generation made the Star Ship infinitely long when it took off which was more realistic than the original Enterprise ship's departure which was amateurish.

Aside: I'm still working on "God has no succession of moments".

 

[atpollard]

Back to Ephesians 1 ... cause Ephesians ROCKS!

In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Attempting to grab an entire sentence (no small feat with Paul). What about the phrase "according to the purpose of his will"? It always makes me think of this quote:

"God does as He pleases, and He does it right well." - Corrie ten Boom​

"His will" ... does anyone remember asking "why?" and being told "because I said so." That is the ULTIMATE answer to WHY when one is talking about anything that God does. It is because God desires it to be that way. If God wanted it to be some other way ... it would.

Fortunately for us (VERY fortunately), the sentence - which expresses a complete thought - BEGINS with the words "In love". This is fortunate for us because God is under no obligation to be "kindly disposed" towards his creation. If one were to make a hammer, one would expect to pound that hammer against objects until it ceased to function as a hammer. One has no obligation to treat a hammer with "gentleness". One is only obligated to use a hammer for the purpose for which you created it. Therefore, it is VERY fortunate for us (as the creation) that the "purpose" of God's "will" that drives EVERYTHING, begins with "In love".

"In Holiness", God might have created all mankind to demonstrate His Justice and Power by holding us all accountable to repay the last "penny" of our debt to Him ... but He didn't.

"In Love" God per-selected US to be His ... more than possessions, beloved Children. Perfect Bride. Wow. This LOVE of God is some really powerful stuff, huh?

 

[atpollard]

I'd never heard of Schrödinger's cat.

God in His infinite wisdom, sent me to study "Computer Science" at a University where the Computer Science program was hosted by the "Mathamatics-Philosophy" Department. So I took a lot of classes on Mathematical Philosophy [Infinity machines, paradoxes of motion, etc.]. I am a fount of useless information.

Aside: I'm still working on "God has no succession of moments".

Ahh ... the "Eternal Now".
Doesn't Jesus' 33 years put a fly in even that ointment ... fully God-Man and he HAD to be aware of the succession of that time. maybe? I think?

 

[fastfredy0]

Mathematical Philosophy

Wow... I never heard of that

fully God-Man and he HAD to be aware of the succession of that time. maybe? I think?

Well, God knows our POV and we don't have much clue about His POV (gee, I'm sounding like @makesends )

Loved your post #33.

"In Love" God preselected US to be His ... more than possessions, beloved Children. Perfect Bride. Wow. This LOVE of God is some really powerful stuff, huh?

In "Wrath" God pre-selected (or did not select) others. The wrath of God is scary, powerful stuff too.
Hmmm ... we can't will that our will be a certain way .... and God can't chose that His essence be another way. Could be ominous if God's essence was different .... is ominous for most people that His essence is the way it is now.

 

[Mr GLee]

The "time of reformation" refers to when there will be a new heaven and a new earth in Revelation 21. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of preaching the Gospel. The foreshadows testify about what is to come and we should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come by continuing to observe them rather than a way that bears false witness against what is to come.

Thanks for reply sorry I did not notice

Sorry in advance for the rambling

The first century reformation is not a popular doctrine today yet not one that can be ignored (the whole period of time there were kings in Israel )

I would offer if we look to the time of reformation spoken of in Hebrews 9 . it becomes clear we should look to the foundation knowing what what time period and government it was restored to.

Using that whole period of time as a figure of speech called a parable the signified understanding from God .therefore using the temporal things seen to represent the unseen things of God .The time had come all the shadows of the ceremonial laws as a sign to the unbelieving world became sight , the veil is rent opened to all the nations of the world .It was not a sign to themselves dying flesh and blood .the believing Jew as well as Gentiles remains trusting as it is written they have the perfect prophecy sealed with 7 seal til the end of time . Again signs to wonder after .,not for believers

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The foundation of the temporal reformation 1 Samael 8 . There the atheist Jews in there jealousy of all the surrounding pagan nations whose religious belief was "out of sight out of mind" no God unseen God calls fools Like that of Cain I know where load mouth is .I was out in the cornfield.turning over new ground The first murder of the father of lies spoken of in John 8:44 a murderer as the serial killer from that beginning.Nothing but copy cats today "Who is the greatest" let them through the first stone .I will throw the whole mountain . . .LOL

Reminded me of a period of time In Luke and Mark 9 when Jesus was given words from the Father to be be used as a parable a teaching tool teaching mankind how to walk after the unseen eternal things .Jesus spoke one parable after another in a hope of teaching them to look to the Holy Father not seen .

Giving one parable hiding the unseen spiritual understand one again right after another leaving them confused they wondered. Wondering is not believing. At one point in their confusion seemingly it was a group decision they must of thought Jesu had went off the deep end Most likely the most misunderstood person that ever walked on water they began a new election "Who is the greatest"

When finished with the last parable in that series (verse 55 Luke 9) .The lord gave words to Jesus the prophet and rebuked them saying . . "you know not what manner of spirit you are of" and continued to teach them how to walk by faith the eternal unseen things of God

 

[Mr GLee]

Ahh ... the "Eternal Now".
Doesn't Jesus' 33 years put a fly in even that ointment ... fully God-Man and he HAD to be aware of the succession of that time. maybe? I think?

I would offer Jesus the Son of man having no power of his own did the will of the unseen powerful Holy Father He confessed Not as I will living in a dying body but you Father the one with power to raise the dead to newness of life (eternal)

God working in every man. Not God Man. God is not a man ( Job 9:33)

 

[ReverendRV]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

Let's use their "By vs Through' argument, they use in Eph 2:8. There is no 'through' in Eph 1:1, right? They are forced to admit here, that Saint Paul's Apostleship is BY the Will of God. It is by God. Everything is by God. We're Saved by Grace through Faith; this is not of ourselves but is the Gift of God...

 

[TMSO]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

I could see anyone, in this case Paul being apostles by God's will. I mean of course it's by God's will. Jesus showed this on the road to Damascus.
Of course, neither the reformed nor Synergist has any proof here for their perspective.

I read a sermon that gave a different view of some parts of Calvinism. (Specifically Irresistible Grace). He emphasized Jesus statement about striving to enter the narrow gate. There is no simple entrance. He also related the four soils to the narrow gate. You have some hanging outside the gate, waiting for the end and hoping to gain entrance, only to be shut out. We are to be striving to enter that gate, until we collapse and the door is opened and we are rescued by Christ. (He believed in total inability.) This is also shown in Pilgrim's Progress by the people trying to storm the castle gates. I bring this up to ask the question, in light of this, how do we explain the elect?

I have considered that it is John 6 all over, where there were two, perhaps three kinds of people. Those who came to Christ to get something out of Him. (They came after Him to forcibly make Him King so He would take care of them.) There are those who came due to curiosity, or word of mouth. (Drawn to Him.) Then there were the 12 disciples who were drawn to Jesus by God. In the end, they were the only ones who remained.

So, again, how does one explain election in light of those who were drawn to Jesus by desire (forcibly make Him King), those who were drawn by curiosity, or word of mouth, and those who were drawn by God, to explain irresistible grace. (In light of the narrow gate above.) This is not non-calvinist, but seeking to reconcile various scripture around the main theme of scripture. (The reconciliation and gathering of the elect.)

 

[atpollard]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Back to Ephesians 1 (paragraphs are our friend).

Paul strings together phrases in Verses 5 & 6 that should probably be examined both individually (as phrases) and together ( as a group):

In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ ...

• according to the purpose of his will,
• to the praise of his glorious grace,
• with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

PERSONAL OBSERVATION:

• God has a PLAN
• That PLAN is for "our good and His glory" ... founded upon God's unmerited favor (grace)
• All of which flows to us from and through "the Beloved" (Jesus Christ).

The original stated goal was to look at this from both a Calvinist and Arminian POV.
So which THEOLOGY (Calvinism or Arminianism) is God's PLAN?
Which brings Him greater glory?
Which is represented in the life, teaching, and glorification of Christ?

To quote Master Oogway from Kung-Fu Panda "I dunknow."

What I do know is:

• I am comforted to know that God has a plan ... the universe is not just "A Series of Unfortunate Events" ... God has a WILL and events serve a PURPOSE within that will.
• Not only are we the recipients of GRACE [unmerited favor], but that grace is GLORIOUS [worthy of Glory] ... and should inspire us to PRAISE ... an "attitude of gratitude" as my Pentecostal friends would say.
• God has held back NOTHING ... He has gifted us with blessings upon blessings and mercy upon mercy. For those that will praise Him forever, it is easy to see how an attitude of praise can flow so completely from so many for so long. For those destined for eternal separation from Him, it is possible to imaging the anger at pouring out so great a salvation and having it rejected. Sufficient for ALL, effective for SOME (Calvinist or Arminian).

Changing gears ... Remember, I see THREE sides to every question, it is just how I am wired ...

• with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

The simplest reading is the BELOVED is a euphemism for Christ (based on the prior context).
However, what if it also carries a DOUBLE MEANING ... the "Beloved" is the BRIDE" ... aka. the Body of Christ, The Church.

Yes, we are richly blessed in Christ, but has God also richly blessed us with and in one another? Think of the prayers Jesus made that WE would be one as God the father and God the Son were one. Think of the GIFTS that the Holy Spirit distributes among the members for the benefit of the Church. Think of all the "one another" verses in scripture.

We suck at it, but could God have intended us to be more of a blessing to one another ... for God to bless us through one another?

Probably not ... but as Willy Wonka said "We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of the dreams." [well, I actually don't make music ... but I can hear songs playing in my head and sometimes I whistle along].

 

[GeneZ]

I believe Ephesians Chapters 1 & 2 are very Reformed. I have talked with many synergists who claim just the opposite. And I thought to myself, how can they not see it?
However, to be honest, I have desired to be able to see Eph 1-2 in an Arminian way (synergistic), And for a while now, I have been able to understand it from both perspectives, up to certain points that is. And at times, I must admit, I have said, ..... .... wow. I believe there are certain parts where the reformed view of Predestination just cannot be denied.

So, if anyone, both monergists or synergists are interested, please join in. I think it will be interesting, and a blessing I hope to discuss these things. I will start briefly, with verses 1-2 in the next post.


1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer​

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy ​

and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through ​

Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with ​

which he has blessed us in the Beloved. " Ephesians 1:4-6​

He chose us "IN Him." Why "in Him?"

Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, ​

will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:21​

Yes!
He chose us.

But, for what did He choose us?


He chose us before the foundation of the world out from all the souls that God knew would choose to believe. Chosen for something specific in God's plan. Note! It says we were chosen IN HIM. "IN Him" is the key.

It does not say chosen to save us! He already knew we would believe.

Where is body of the resurrected bride of Christ before she is to be revealed?
Its "IN" Him!

Just like it was with Adam's bride. Our resurrected glorious bodies are now in the Body of Christ who is now seated in heavenly places.

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:6​

Like the Lord took the substance of Adam's body to make another body of identical substance.. to be called "woman" by Adam?
We are now awaiting receiving our glorious resurrection bodies to be made manifested. Manifested just as His glorious body is now being!

Genesis 2:23 is a parallel to when we shall become "bone of His bones, and glorious flesh of His glorious flesh!"

The man said,​

​

“This is now bone of my bones​

and flesh of my flesh;​

she shall be called ‘woman,’​

for she was taken out of man.”​

God did not choose all whom He knew would believe to become the Bride of Christ. Only those He predestined to be born in the Church age were so chosen!

For, Moses will not have a resurrection body just like His glorious body. Neither will David, nor Abraham.

Why not?

They were not chosen IN Him before the foundation of the world!
Moses and David and Abraham were chosen to be alive prior to the Church age.
Their eternal Home will be the New earth. Our Home will be Heaven.

The more we become clear on what that speaks of, the less divided we will stand.

grace and peace ................

 

[prism]

I believe Ephesians Chapters 1 & 2 are very Reformed.

Anecdotally, I had absolutely no Church background, when I was drawn to the Lord. Three months in, I picked up Ephesians and read (esp. chap 1); I've been cursed with Reformed inclinations ever since (nearly 50 years). lol

 

[Arial]

Yes!
He chose us.

But, for what did He choose us?


He chose us before the foundation of the world out from all the souls that God knew would choose to believe. Chosen for something specific in God's plan. Note! It says we were chosen IN HIM. "IN Him" is the key.

The elect were not chosen on the basis of anyone choosing Him. If a person were able to get past the idea that all this saving and the suffering of Christ and what it produced is all about US, we would be able to understand God a bit better and keep in our place.

The only place chose or chosen has any relevance in the matter is in God choosing to give a people to the Son, for the Son's glory. And He created those to give to the Son. (Psalm 139; Romans 8:16-17; John 6:37-40; John 10:29 John 17)

Chosen (BY GOD) before the foundation of the world means He created them to give to the Son. It is not about what earthly purpose we serve, it is about His purpose. To give them to the Son. And for whatever purpose He has for us while we are here as kingdom members, will also be fulfilled.