A walk through Ephesians 1 - 2 ?

[David1701]

First, let me say, I agree with you.


However, can you not see how this passage does not necessarily work? I mean isn't it God's will Christ gave himself for our sins, that we might be delivered?

Can you see this passage in both the Arminian and Calvinist views? I can.

What are the key points (if I can use that) that does it for you?

How would you expound it, from an Arminian perspective?

 

[Arial]

My THOUGHT: I wish Paul wrote in shorter, simpler and clearer sentences.

My thought on your commentary: The sentence does not end there ("even as he chose us"):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So what does it mean, exactly, to be "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world."

• Is Paul saying the choice was made by God of individuals "us - plural" who are to be saved by being placed in Christ and God chose these specific individuals before He made the world?
• Is Paul saying that before the world was made, God chose Christ (specifically "in Christ") as the method by which individuals (collectively) would be saved ... which is a blessing for those that will reside in Christ?

One is 100% REFORMED and the other is 100% ARMINIAN Compatible.

Was Paul deliberately "clear as mud" for some Holy Spirit inspired reason?

Yes, but will the second, the A'ist one agree with other scriptures on the subject and the whole counsel of God? And does before the foundation of the world mean that the elect were created specifically to give to Christ for His glory and therefore are predestined to come to Christ? Seriously. It is a question I am trying to answer. Input?

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes, but will the second, the A'ist one agree with other scriptures on the subject and the whole counsel of God? And does before the foundation of the world mean that the elect were created specifically to give to Christ for His glory and therefore are predestined to come to Christ? Seriously. It is a question I am trying to answer. Input?

It seems to me that since God has blessed us in Christ with every Spiritual Blessing in the Heavenly places, this must be speaking of the Unconditionally Elect; because the Lost never have the Spiritual Blessing of Adoption as sons, and cannot say they have every Blessing...

The Logical Order is Chosen before Creation, Predestined unto Adoption, and Justified in Time...

 

[Arial]

It seems to me that since God has blessed us in Christ with every Spiritual Blessing in the Heavenly places, this must be speaking of the Unconditionally Elect; because the Lost never have the Spiritual Blessing of Adoption as sons, and cannot say they have every Blessing...

The Logical Order is Chosen before Creation, Predestined unto Adoption, and Justified in Time...

Agree. I have a question though that I have been pondering. I get almost all the way through tracking it with scripture and something seems like it might be off or at least needs be worked through. But I can't pinpoint what exactly.

The question is, did God specifically create those who are the elect for the purpose of giving them to Christ----for Christ? That in a sense we always belonged to Christ but still had to be placed IN Him, through faith in the gospel.

I started a thread on the question in Bible questions so hopefully we can all walk through it together.

 

[ReverendRV]

Agree. I have a question though that I have been pondering. I get almost all the way through tracking it with scripture and something seems like it might be off or at least needs be worked through. But I can't pinpoint what exactly.

The question is, did God specifically create those who are the elect for the purpose of giving them to Christ----for Christ? That in a sense we always belonged to Christ but still had to be placed IN Him, through faith in the gospel.

I started a thread on the question in Bible questions so hopefully we can all walk through it together.

Yes, God Chose us for Jesus...

Choose or Refuse ~ by ReverendRV * February 16

Isaiah 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the brides virginity, so shall God rejoice over you.

In debates with Atheists, I come across some who genuinely want to know a Christian’s answer to their objections. Questions range from the simple to the complex; and sometimes the simple questions are those that need the complex answer. Bill the Atheist asked, “What is God’s real goal in creating Mankind?” Bill didn’t want answers like ‘The chief end of Man is to Glorify God and enjoy him always’. Bill objects that if this is the reason, then God could have made us in such a way that he would not eternally destroy us in Hell for our Sin. The ‘Shorter’ Catechism answer is correct, but Bill wanted a ‘lowest common denominator’ type of answer that will satisfy his objection. I responded by saying there can be more than one satisfactory answer, but I will give him my answer; “God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”…

There are a few Theological Doctrines that come into play in answering the question; a complex answer to a ‘one liner’ question. One Doctrine is the Immutability of God; he doesn’t change. In eternity, God is a Trinity; the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since this is described as happening in eternity, it tests the Mind to think of a time when the three are not one. Because God doesn’t change, he cannot produce a Bride from his Essence like God produced a Son from his Essence; IE the Doctrine of Consubstantiality. A Bride must then be Created; thus she is the weaker vessel. This is where the Doctrine of God’s Incommunicable and Communicable Attributes come into play. A Creature cannot have all of God’s Attributes, or the Creature would be God. For instance, God is said to be ‘from Everlasting to Everlasting’; a Creature can only be from Creation to Everlasting. But a Creature can possess Gods Communicable Attributes, IE ‘Cogito ergo sum’; which means ‘I think, therefore I am’. ~ Man was Created a little lower than the Angels but through a relationship with God, our station is made higher than the Angels; making us closer to God. We will always be less than Divine, but through a Marriage with God’s Son; ‘the two become one’. This is how God’s Son gets a Bride…

Now as to why this couldn’t be achieved apart from the Fall of Adam, a Bride must be able to choose or Refuse her Groom, or the Marriage is not a true relationship. Mankind was Created Good; with freedom of Will. God gave Man dominion in the world, and this makes it necessary that we are free to exercise our dominion. The downfall is; Man can choose to Sin. ~ Because of Pride, Lucifer fell into Sin even in the pure environment of Heaven; and remember that Man was made weaker than the Angels. There comes a time we need to ask, ‘Can God have a relationship with a Mankind who can’t choose him without an option to resist?’ Would it be worth it for God to force himself on Humanity? ~ Are you Proud? Have you forced yourself on anther person? Go to God’s Risen Son Jesus Christ through Faith, for forgiveness of your Sins and you will become a pure Virgin by being Born Again; fit for marriage. When it comes to your Righteousness, God will rejoice over you! Repent of your Sins and join a Bible believing Church. ~ You have to admit, you’ve previously resisted his advances and he hasn’t forced himself on you yet; perhaps your Will is bound, just the other way around? Exercise your dominion; Choose him or Refuse him…

Matthew 22:1; Jesus spoke to them, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son.

 

[Mr GLee]

I read a sermon that gave a different view of some parts of Calvinism. (Specifically Irresistible Grace). He emphasized Jesus statement about striving to enter the narrow gate. There is no simple entrance. He also related the four soils to the narrow gate. You have some hanging outside the gate, waiting for the end and hoping to gain entrance, only to be shut out. We are to be striving to enter that gate, until we collapse and the door is opened and we are rescued by Christ. (He believed in total inability.) This is also shown in Pilgrim's Progress by the people trying to storm the castle gates. I bring this up to ask the question, in light of this, how do we explain the elect?

I have considered that it is John 6 all over, where there were two, perhaps three kinds of people. Those who came to Christ to get something out of Him. (They came after Him to forcibly make Him King so He would take care of them.) There are those who came due to curiosity, or word of mouth. (Drawn to Him.) Then there were the 12 disciples who were drawn to Jesus by God. In the end, they were the only ones who remained.

So, again, how does one explain election in light of those who were drawn to Jesus by desire (forcibly make Him King), those who were drawn by curiosity, or word of mouth, and those who were drawn by God, to explain irresistible grace. (In light of the narrow gate above.) This is not non-calvinist, but seeking to reconcile various scripture around the main theme of scripture. (The reconciliation and gathering of the elect.)

Two kinds in John 6 those given the faith of Christ as a labor of His love and those that have no faith as it is written as those who look to the dying flesh.

It would depend on what some calls irresistible. If it means without the drawing power of God's living word, no man could come.

Then it rings true

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Not the son of man will raise us up he has no power. Power comes from the Father alone.

 

[ReverendRV]

Two kinds in John 6 those given the faith of Christ as a labor of His love and those that have no faith as it is written as those who look to the dying flesh.

It would depend on what some calls irresistible. If it means without the drawing power of God's living word, no man could come.

Then it rings true

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Not the son of man will raise us up he has no power. Power comes from the Father alone.

Oh my God!

 

[Carbon]

How would you expound it, from an Arminian perspective?

I’m hoping to have some time in a day or so.

 

[Mr GLee]

“God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”…

I would offer the real goal is to create a bride to be with her husband Christ the faithful Creator forever. She will be neither male nor female Jew nor gentile but an entirely new creation. No multplying or aging leading towards an end.

Timothy is used to represent the chaste virgin bride as the mother of us all

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you (neither male nor female) with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Below God renamed his bride previously calling her born again Israel. changed in Acts the new name named after her husband Christ. Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations. Literally with no other meaning. "Residents of the city of Christ" prepared by her husband as founder Christ.

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

 

[makesends]

Agree. I have a question though that I have been pondering. I get almost all the way through tracking it with scripture and something seems like it might be off or at least needs be worked through. But I can't pinpoint what exactly.

The question is, did God specifically create those who are the elect for the purpose of giving them to Christ----for Christ? That in a sense we always belonged to Christ but still had to be placed IN Him, through faith in the gospel.

I started a thread on the question in Bible questions so hopefully we can all walk through it together.

link?

 

[Mr GLee]

Agree. I have a question though that I have been pondering. I get almost all the way through tracking it with scripture and something seems like it might be off or at least needs be worked through. But I can't pinpoint what exactly.

The question is, did God specifically create those who are the elect for the purpose of giving them to Christ----for Christ? That in a sense we always belonged to Christ but still had to be placed IN Him, through faith in the gospel.

I started a thread on the question in Bible questions so hopefully we can all walk through it together.

Yes the lamb slain from the foundation the six days the father did work. Therefore when he sees the blood the work of the Holy Spirit in his time .

We walk by His faith the unseen gospel understanding hid from 666 natural unconverted mankind.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 12:23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

 

[Arial]

link?

In Theology Questions: Question For Calvinist/Reformed Members. I don't know how to imbed a link. Will set myself to learning how. Appreciate help/

 

[prism]

The question is, did God specifically create those who are the elect for the purpose of giving them to Christ----for Christ? That in a sense we always belonged to Christ but still had to be placed IN Him, through faith in the gospel.

I believe so, that is why faith is required.
'for the purpose of giving them...' implies a sequence of time and events, which, in light of an Eternal Being, sequences of time don't exist.

 

[Arial]

Yes, God Chose us for Jesus...

Choose or Refuse ~ by ReverendRV * February 16

Isaiah 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the brides virginity, so shall God rejoice over you.

In debates with Atheists, I come across some who genuinely want to know a Christian’s answer to their objections. Questions range from the simple to the complex; and sometimes the simple questions are those that need the complex answer. Bill the Atheist asked, “What is God’s real goal in creating Mankind?” Bill didn’t want answers like ‘The chief end of Man is to Glorify God and enjoy him always’. Bill objects that if this is the reason, then God could have made us in such a way that he would not eternally destroy us in Hell for our Sin. The ‘Shorter’ Catechism answer is correct, but Bill wanted a ‘lowest common denominator’ type of answer that will satisfy his objection. I responded by saying there can be more than one satisfactory answer, but I will give him my answer; “God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a Bride”…

There are a few Theological Doctrines that come into play in answering the question; a complex answer to a ‘one liner’ question. One Doctrine is the Immutability of God; he doesn’t change. In eternity, God is a Trinity; the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since this is described as happening in eternity, it tests the Mind to think of a time when the three are not one. Because God doesn’t change, he cannot produce a Bride from his Essence like God produced a Son from his Essence; IE the Doctrine of Consubstantiality. A Bride must then be Created; thus she is the weaker vessel. This is where the Doctrine of God’s Incommunicable and Communicable Attributes come into play. A Creature cannot have all of God’s Attributes, or the Creature would be God. For instance, God is said to be ‘from Everlasting to Everlasting’; a Creature can only be from Creation to Everlasting. But a Creature can possess Gods Communicable Attributes, IE ‘Cogito ergo sum’; which means ‘I think, therefore I am’. ~ Man was Created a little lower than the Angels but through a relationship with God, our station is made higher than the Angels; making us closer to God. We will always be less than Divine, but through a Marriage with God’s Son; ‘the two become one’. This is how God’s Son gets a Bride…

Now as to why this couldn’t be achieved apart from the Fall of Adam, a Bride must be able to choose or Refuse her Groom, or the Marriage is not a true relationship. Mankind was Created Good; with freedom of Will. God gave Man dominion in the world, and this makes it necessary that we are free to exercise our dominion. The downfall is; Man can choose to Sin. ~ Because of Pride, Lucifer fell into Sin even in the pure environment of Heaven; and remember that Man was made weaker than the Angels. There comes a time we need to ask, ‘Can God have a relationship with a Mankind who can’t choose him without an option to resist?’ Would it be worth it for God to force himself on Humanity? ~ Are you Proud? Have you forced yourself on anther person? Go to God’s Risen Son Jesus Christ through Faith, for forgiveness of your Sins and you will become a pure Virgin by being Born Again; fit for marriage. When it comes to your Righteousness, God will rejoice over you! Repent of your Sins and join a Bible believing Church. ~ You have to admit, you’ve previously resisted his advances and he hasn’t forced himself on you yet; perhaps your Will is bound, just the other way around? Exercise your dominion; Choose him or Refuse him…

Matthew 22:1; Jesus spoke to them, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son.

That was very helpful---until the last paragraph and it becomes the meat for A'ist without them bothering to think through it. There is much there that I would like to delve into but it moves @Carbon thread in a different direction, so Carbon I ask your permission to do so in this thread, in which case I will delete the one I started on the subject that has no responses yet. If you would prefer I do not do it here then Rev could you post this same post in Theology Questions: Question For Calvinist/Reformed Members? It is very articulate and focused and gives distinct avenues to explore. Thanks for it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Oh my God!

What is it about your God?

 

[Arial]

What is it about your God?

I would hope that people would cease being so arrogant as to say things like this. As though if they disagree with you they are automatically worshiping a false god.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would hope that people would cease being so arrogant as to say things like this. As though if they disagree with you they are automatically worshiping a false god.

If directed towards I am not the accuser of the brethren

Sounds like a misunderstanding. That's not my idea.

I think if a person claims to be a Christian we treat him as one. There must be disagreement called heresies among us the kingdom of God does not come by observing the temporal dying . As long as they do not to despite the the fullness of grace the entire cost of salabation. We can have differences God makes us different. what does any have that he did not receive from God? .

Christ is the teacher . He defines the us that are in him. . not of us.

 

[ReverendRV]

What is it about your God?

The Omnipotent Jesus Christ is my God...

 

[Arial]

In Theology Questions: Question For Calvinist/Reformed Members. I don't know how to imbed a link. Will set myself to learning how. Appreciate help/

I am kind of waiting to hear from @Carbon whether to go ahead and address the subject per @ReverendRV 's post here or have his post put in that thread and carry on there.

 

[Arial]

Sounds like a misunderstanding. That's not my idea.

I accept that but it needs to be said/asked a different way so as not to sound like an accusation of a different god.