A walk through Ephesians 1 - 2 ?

[Carbon]

I believe Ephesians Chapters 1 & 2 are very Reformed. I have talked with many synergists who claim just the opposite. And I thought to myself, how can they not see it?
However, to be honest, I have desired to be able to see Eph 1-2 in an Arminian way (synergistic), And for a while now, I have been able to understand it from both perspectives, up to certain points that is. And at times, I must admit, I have said, ..... .... wow. I believe there are certain parts where the reformed view of Predestination just cannot be denied.

So, if anyone, both monergists or synergists are interested, please join in. I think it will be interesting, and a blessing I hope to discuss these things. I will start briefly, with verses 1-2 in the next post.


1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer​

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

 

[Carbon]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

I could see anyone, in this case Paul being apostles by God's will. I mean of course it's by God's will. Jesus showed this on the road to Damascus.
Of course, neither the reformed nor Synergist has any proof here for their perspective.

 

[Soyeong]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints

In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separate from Christ, alienated from Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, and each of these elements is describing people who is not living in obedience in obedience to the Mosaic Law, but through faith in Christ, all of those things is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel alone with the saints in the household of God. So for Paul to address Ephesians 1:1 to saints is to address it to people who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

In Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faithfulness is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and in 1 John 2:6, those are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and the Mosaic Law is how we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to it through faith in Christ is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it, so every aspect of who Paul addressed his letter to refers to someone who is participating in their salvation from not obeying the Mosaic Law by delighting in the gift of getting to obey it.

2 Grace to you

Likewise, in Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Mosaic Law.

 

[brightfame52]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

I could see anyone, in this case Paul being apostles by God's will. I mean of course it's by God's will. Jesus showed this on the road to Damascus.
Of course, neither the reformed nor Synergist has any proof here for their perspective.

Its the will of God that anyone is saved whether an Apostle or not, it pertains to all the Chosen in Christ Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

See its Gods will as much as its His will for Paul to be an Apostle, that those Christ gave Himself for, to be delivered from this present evil world, which is Salvation.

 

[Carbon]

In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separate from Christ, alienated from Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, and each of these elements is describing people who is not living in obedience in obedience to the Mosaic Law, but through faith in Christ, all of those things is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel alone with the saints in the household of God. So for Paul to address Ephesians 1:1 to saints is to address it to people who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

But verse 1 is speaking about Paul only.

In Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faithfulness is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and in 1 John 2:6, those are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and the Mosaic Law is how we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to it through faith in Christ is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it, so every aspect of who Paul addressed his letter to refers to someone who is participating in their salvation from not obeying the Mosaic Law by delighting in the gift of getting to obey it.

Our salvation is by God from God.

Likewise, in Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Mosaic Law.

 

[Carbon]

First, let me say, I agree with you.

Its the will of God that anyone is saved whether an Apostle or not, it pertains to all the Chosen in Christ Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

See its Gods will as much as its His will for Paul to be an Apostle, that those Christ gave Himself for, to be delivered from this present evil world, which is Salvation.

However, can you not see how this passage does not necessarily work? I mean isn't it God's will Christ gave himself for our sins, that we might be delivered?

Can you see this passage in both the Arminian and Calvinist views? I can.

What are the key points (if I can use that) that does it for you?

 

[Carbon]

First, let me say, I agree with you.


However, can you not see how this passage does not necessarily work? I mean isn't it God's will Christ gave himself for our sins, that we might be delivered?

Can you see this passage in both the Arminian and Calvinist views? I can.

What are the key points (if I can use that) that does it for you?

You see, it's easy to just say Arminians are wrong. But it is also easy for Arminians to say Calvinists are wrong.

But in which way can either system prove itself by this passage - Gal 1:4-5

 

[Mr GLee]

In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separate from Christ, alienated from Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, and each of these elements is describing people who is not living in obedience in obedience to the Mosaic Law, but through faith in Christ, all of those things is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel alone with the saints in the household of God. So for Paul to address Ephesians 1:1 to saints is to address it to people who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Yes was separate until the "time of reformation" (Hebrew 9) having used that whole time period.God giving over the athest jew to do not what he asked them (the abomination of desolation) Kings in Israel as pagan foundation .

Kings in Israel as a parable the signified understanding, called a figure or shadow of the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow. . the veil was rent.

Before he used the Jewish flesh to represent all of mankind. . all of the old testament apostles called Judges beginning with Abel the first martyr were used to preach the gospel . Deborah one of my favorites, right behind Rehab the apostle.

Mankind that came from all the nations of the world signified as Jews according to thier dying flesh. It was temporal until the time of reformation . . . the shadows disappeared. God has given us one new ceremonial shadow to look ahead in 1 Corthrithain 11

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[Soyeong]

But verse 1 is speaking about Paul only.

Verse 1 also addresses saints, who are faithful, and who are in Christ, so I spoke about what these terms are referring to, as well as what it means to say grace to you.

Our salvation is by God from God.

Indeed, though that does not mean that it does not require our participation. The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where being required to do that work does not detract from the opportunity to drive it being given as a gift. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to have the experience doing those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from having the experience of not doing those works.

 

[Carbon]

Verse 1 also addresses saints, who are faithful, and who are in Christ, so I spoke about what these terms are referring to, as well as what it means to say grace to you.

Yes, you are right it does.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes was separate until the "time of reformation" (Hebrew 9) having used that whole time period.God giving over the athest jew to do not what he asked them (the abomination of desolation) Kings in Israel as pagan foundation .

Kings in Israel as a parable the signified understanding, called a figure or shadow of the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow. . the veil was rent.

Before he used the Jewish flesh to represent all of mankind. . all of the old testament apostles called Judges beginning with Abel the first martyr were used to preach the gospel . Deborah one of my favorites, right behind Rehab the apostle.

Mankind that came from all the nations of the world signified as Jews according to thier dying flesh. It was temporal until the time of reformation . . . the shadows disappeared. God has given us one new ceremonial shadow to look ahead in 1 Corthrithain 11

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The "time of reformation" refers to when there will be a new heaven and a new earth in Revelation 21. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of preaching the Gospel. The foreshadows testify about what is to come and we should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come by continuing to observe them rather than a way that bears false witness against what is to come.

 

[Carbon]

Indeed, though that does not mean that it does not require our participation.

Participation?
Not contributing to our salvation.
Participation because it is who we become, ie the saved.

 

[Soyeong]

Participation?
Not contributing to our salvation.
Participation because it is who we become, ie the saved.

Our salvation being described as being trained by grace to do those works means that our salvation requires us to participate in doing those works and if someone refuses to do those works, then they are not being saved from not doing them. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is acting in accordance with what Christ accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), not contributing our own works on top of Christ's works as though his works were insufficient for salvation. For example, becoming zealous for honoring our parents through faith in Christ is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents, which requires our full participation.

 

[Carbon]

Our salvation being described as being trained by grace to do those works means that our salvation requires us to participate in doing those works and if someone refuses to do those works, then they are not being saved from not doing them. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is acting in accordance with what Christ accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), not contributing our own works on top of Christ's works as though his works were insufficient for salvation. For example, becoming zealous for honoring our parents through faith in Christ is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents, which requires our full participation.

I think we are agreeing. ?

 

[Carbon]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

Of course. Christ is the fount of every blessing, if we are not "in Christ" we are cut off.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Being predestined for adoption does not have to be of the reformed view. This could be believed and accepted by either system.

However, if we read this (as I believe it should be read) as it is written to believers

even as he chose us

, then it would I believe, heavily support the reformed view.


Thought? comments?

 

[atpollard]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see and understand from both perspectives, especially verse 1.

I could see anyone, in this case Paul being apostles by God's will. I mean of course it's by God's will. Jesus showed this on the road to Damascus.
Of course, neither the reformed nor Synergist has any proof here for their perspective.

I would have thought that you would get further than verse 2 before someone disagreed.

 

[Carbon]

I would have thought that you would get further than verse 2 before someone disagreed.

Yea me too.

 

[atpollard]

Of course. Christ is the fount of every blessing, if we are not "in Christ" we are cut off.

Being predestined for adoption does not have to be of the reformed view. This could be believed and accepted by either system.

However, if we read this (as I believe it should be read) as it is written to believers

, then it would I believe, heavily support the reformed view.


Thought? comments?

My THOUGHT: I wish Paul wrote in shorter, simpler and clearer sentences.

My thought on your commentary: The sentence does not end there ("even as he chose us"):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So what does it mean, exactly, to be "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world."

• Is Paul saying the choice was made by God of individuals "us - plural" who are to be saved by being placed in Christ and God chose these specific individuals before He made the world?
• Is Paul saying that before the world was made, God chose Christ (specifically "in Christ") as the method by which individuals (collectively) would be saved ... which is a blessing for those that will reside in Christ?

One is 100% REFORMED and the other is 100% ARMINIAN Compatible.

Was Paul deliberately "clear as mud" for some Holy Spirit inspired reason?

 

[Carbon]

My THOUGHT: I wish Paul wrote in shorter, simpler and clearer sentences.

My thought on your commentary: The sentence does not end there ("even as he chose us"):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So what does it mean, exactly, to be "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world."

• Is Paul saying the choice was made by God of individuals "us - plural" who are to be saved by being placed in Christ and God chose these specific individuals before He made the world?
• Is Paul saying that before the world was made, God chose Christ (specifically "in Christ") as the method by which individuals (collectively) would be saved ... which is a blessing for those that will reside in Christ?

One is 100% REFORMED and the other is 100% ARMINIAN Compatible.

Was Paul deliberately "clear as mud" for some Holy Spirit inspired reason?

Nice post!

I think the straight answer is "context."

If we consider this epistle by Paul, is written to all believers only. Or just as a general message to everyone and anyone.

If it is just a general message to all. I don't see how this would apply to all:

who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

That's a lot of blessing for "everyone and anyone" to claim. I mean, "every blessing" in the heavenly places?

If it is to believers (the elect) it is blessed with an assurance that absolutely can apply.

and,

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

This could really mean only two things.
If this was for everyone and anyone, then wouldn't everyone be holy and blameless before him? This would smell of universalism which is not biblical.

Or,

If it was written to believers, then we can be confident it will be as He says, and Christ is our sanctification.

Is there another option?

 

[EarlyActs]

I never read passages as though theories from centuries later were already there.