A Question for the Calvinist

[prism]

This method or mode of thinking obscures the good news message of the Gospel. How? They make the Gospel another set of to do's in order to be saved.

Whenever I hear a 'do this' in order to be saved, my default challenge is "How much of the 'do' must I 'do' before I am accepted in the beloved"?

 

[Rella]

Whenever I hear a 'do this' in order to be saved, my default challenge is "How much of the 'do' must I 'do' before I am accepted in the beloved"?

Have we all not heard the scripture "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ~ Heb 11:6

That is your to do list.

Believe.

Surly cannot be too onerous? While some regard this as a work, I regard it as a pleasure and a privilege.

And applies to which ever side of the coin your beliefs are. Predestined or Free Will. Without faith you just might as well go dig a hole
for yourself

 

[John Bauer]

Have we all not heard the scripture "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ~ Heb 11:6

That is your to do list: Believe.

Surely cannot be too onerous? While some regard this as a work, I regard it as a pleasure and a privilege.

It is a work—but it's God work, not ours:

Then they inquired, "What must we do to carry out the work of God?"

And Jesus replied, "The work is God's[, not yours]—and it is this: your believing in the one he sent."

-- John 6:28-29 (paraphrase translating the original Greek using the subjective genitive category).

For it is God himself who is at work in you, producing both the will and the action that fulfills what pleases him.

-- Philippians 2:13 (paraphrase translating the original Greek).

What is impossible with man is possible with God (Luke 18:27)—indeed, possible only with God.

 

[makesends]

Have we all not heard the scripture "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ~ Heb 11:6

That is your to do list.

Believe.

Surly cannot be too onerous? While some regard this as a work, I regard it as a pleasure and a privilege.

And applies to which ever side of the coin your beliefs are. Predestined or Free Will. Without faith you just might as well go dig a hole
for yourself

Who generates that faith? Where does it come from, and how does it come? Does our contribution complete the equation?

 

[makesends]

Oh, good. Good to know. One thing I have come to understand on the Election between Monergistic & Synergistic theologies is this. Synergistic school of thought is that God enables sinners to make a decision for their fate. Some go further saying that God chooses people who will believe apart from Grace. Both are contrary to Scripture. This method or mode of thinking obscures the good news message of the Gospel. How? They make the Gospel another set of to do's in order to be saved. Just like the false apostles were trying to do with the Galatians.

God's Election brings about our Redemption in Christ by the effective drawing of people to himself through the gifts of repentance and faith that are applied by the Holy Spirit. This is not human effort but a divine one!​

Amen! And even if it is only one 'to-do', it makes Salvation not entirely of Grace.

 

[prism]

Have we all not heard the scripture "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ~ Heb 11:6

That is your to do list.

Believe.

Surly cannot be too onerous? While some regard this as a work, I regard it as a pleasure and a privilege.

And applies to which ever side of the coin your beliefs are. Predestined or Free Will. Without faith you just might as well go dig a hole
for yourself

Right, He DID, ..all my best only muddies the water of His perfect doing by adding my noble dung to His work, thus usurping the glory due His name.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Right, He DID, ..all my best only muddies the water of His perfect doing by adding my noble dung to His work, thus usurping the glory due His name.

Amen!

 

[fastfredy0]

Believe.

Surly cannot be too onerous? While some regard this as a work, I regard it as a pleasure and a privilege.

Belief for salvation is a work by definition. WORK is defined as a physical or mental activity to accomplish a purpose. The next question to answer is, who is doing (causing) this WORK of belief to occurs. John 6:29 This is the WORK of GOD that you believe.

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him

Premise 1: People are born without faith. They are yet to acquire saving faith.
Premise 2: without faith it is impossible to please God
Premise 3: A person having faith pleases God
Conclusion: A unsaved person cannot self determine his faith because they are incapable of pleasing God due to a lack of faith.

 

[Tambora]

(and I know there are plenty here)

Why can't a person facing Judgment say, "The reason I am being judged to eternal destruction is because you did not ordain/predestine me to eternal life?

I'm no Calvinist, but I would add that, according to most Calvinists, God did not love them and therefore did not give them any chance at all to have faith, belief, repentance, etc.

 

[Tambora]

if it is even A reason.

How can God claim to be a God of love? I ask this seriously.

Good question, but you won't get the correct answer from Calvinists.
God can claim it because Jacob and Esau were about nations (ie. Israel and Gentiles), not individuals.
As earlier scripture claims:

Genesis 25​

(23) And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”​

One of those nations (Israel) were called God's people, and the other nations (Gentiles) were not called God's people.

But as Paul explains: those that were at one time not loved and not called His people could be called His people.

Romans 9​

(25) As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”​

(26) “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”​

And Paul sums up that chapter by telling how to become God's beloved people.

Romans 9​

(33) as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”​

 

[Rella]

(and I know there are plenty here)

Why can't a person facing Judgment say, "The reason I am being judged to eternal destruction is because you did not ordain/predestine me to eternal life?

Ok, loaded question.

If not everyone is predestined and no everyone has that ability for faith or belief , Why?

Any guesses as to why God would not want every one to have the faith in Jesus that we do?

 

[Arial]

I'm no Calvinist, but I would add that, according to most Calvinists, God did not love them and therefore did not give them any chance at all to have faith, belief, repentance, etc.

Salvation isn't about chances or choices. It is according to God's grace. And the created world we live in is not a democracy but a theocracy with a sovereign King.

 

[Tambora]

Salvation isn't about chances or choices. It is according to God's grace. And the created world we live in is not a democracy but a theocracy with a sovereign King.

It is if one is insisting that it is God that makes those chances or choices possible or not.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ok, loaded question.

If not everyone is predestined and no everyone has that ability for faith or belief , Why?

Any guesses as to why God would not want every one to have the faith in Jesus that we do?

We give our bodies as witness to HIS great love that the world might know their God.

Their rejection of that love and refusal to worship and serve their Creator is on their own heads.

That God raised us up as vessels showing of His Great Mercy and love is not anyone's concern but God's alone. We are simply grateful to be called His children, and honored to be called His beloved, and happy to give testimony to that great love and mercy, and will serve God all the days of our life, as God created us to do.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad

"Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! The Lord has taken away your judgments, He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst; You shall see disaster no more".[,/color] Zephaniah 3:14:

 

[Arial]

It is if one is insisting that it is God that makes those chances or choices possible or not.

He doesn't make them possible or not possible. He saves to the uttermost those he elects unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Not because they chose him but because he first chose them. He isn't asking them to make a decision. He regenerates them and places them in Christ through faith. That is why they believe when they hear the good news. It is most succinctly stated all in one place in Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those who he called he also justified, and those who he justified he also glorified.

John affirms it is 1 John 4:19 We love Him (God) because He first loved us.

God makes it possible for the elect, who are as dead in their trespasses and sins, and deaf to spiritual things, as the non elect, until God intervenes on their behalf with grace, making them alive, (possible) to believe. He is not making it possible for them to make a choice to believe or not believe.

 

[makesends]

Good question, but you won't get the correct answer from Calvinists.
God can claim it because Jacob and Esau were about nations (ie. Israel and Gentiles), not individuals.
As earlier scripture claims:

Genesis 25​

(23) And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”​

One of those nations (Israel) were called God's people, and the other nations (Gentiles) were not called God's people.

But as Paul explains: those that were at one time not loved and not called His people could be called His people.

Romans 9​

(25) As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”​

(26) “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”​

And Paul sums up that chapter by telling how to become God's beloved people.

Romans 9​

(33) as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”​

Romans 9
(16) "So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

 

[prism]

We give our bodies as witness to HIS great love that the world might know their God.

The Messiah gave his body as witness to the Father's love and yet the world rejected both Him and the Father.

 

[prism]

If not everyone is predestined and no everyone has that ability for faith or belief , Why?

Not everyone is predestined, that's why.

Any guesses as to why God would not want every one to have the faith in Jesus that we do?

His choice, not ours.

 

[makesends]

I'm no Calvinist, but I would add that, according to most Calvinists, God did not love them and therefore did not give them any chance at all to have faith, belief, repentance, etc.

God is not a god of chance.

But, to be fair, maybe you meant "[God] did not give them any [opportunity] at all to have faith, belief, repentance, etc." In that case you would be wrong, because Calvinists claim, as the Bible demonstrates, that they have had the opportunity their whole lives, but REFUSED to believe, trust, repent, pursue Christ.

Romans 8
"The mind of the flesh is at enmity with God; it will not submit to God's law --indeed it cannot."

You will probably ask, then, is that true by God's design? --Yes, by God's design, by God's intention, as is the whole of the universe --the omni-- and as are all the particulars of it. Problem?

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Messiah gave his body as witness to the Father's love and yet the world rejected both Him and the Father.

Absolutely agree, and so will we be.