A problem with premillennialism

[Musicmaster]

It's interesting how the altered Alexandrian manuscripts, which are known to have been manipulated by the Gnostics headquartered in ancient Alexandria, corrupted just the right places to give the impression that the pre-wrath, post-trib, and for some the amillennialism, positions seeming credibility.

MM

 

[Ghada]

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Few talk about this (no one inside Dispensationalism). The logical, necessary conclusion of the premillennial view (both Historic and Dispensational) is that the reign of the Son of God to whom all power and authority has been given fails.

Ending His Millennial reign on earth according to the prophesied thousand years, is fulfilling prophecy, not failing in His reign on earth.

Accusing the Lord's Millennial reign to be a failure, because He ends it according to the phophecy, is the same as declaring the Lord's OT to be a failure, because He ends it according to prophecy.

Some beleieved and still do, that Jesus also failed as Messiah, because He ended His own life on a cross according to prophecy. It's why some call Him cursed for it:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So is calling His Millenial rule cursed.

"Oh, but Josh, it isn't an actual failure because it is God's will the rebellion occur."

This is not only a lie about them teaching the Lord's Millennium on earth, but it'is also the old accusation against God, that it's His will for any man to sin and perish.

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The rebellion was by the will of men after the Lord's reign, and was the failure of men, not the Lord.

There outward obedience by law alone ends, when the Lord ends the execution of His law on earth.

What? Put down the crack pipe and think about that for three seconds because it's absurdly irrational and completely contradictory

There is such as thing as joking about people being on drugs, because of what they believe. But there is also the sin of jesting, which hides contempt and malice behind joking words.

A hint of this is already seen by a fellow anti-mil calling millennialists 'dipsys'. It shows deeper seated personal issues than simple disagreement.

It happens when people begin to put all their trust in their doctrine or prophecy alone, to justify themselves.

Some anti-mils so fervently preach against the Lord's Millennial reign upon the earth, because they spend much time convincing themselves they are already reigning with the Lord from heaven. Their soul and conscience depend on doctrinal and prophetic fiat to escape from the rightous judgement of the Lord for our works.

The Lord will judge His people's works at His return, and will only resurrect His righteous wheat to reign with Him out of Jerusalem. The unrepented tares will be appointed wrath with the hypocrites.

To escape this sure judgment of our works, they instead want to believe they are not only reinging now with the Lord, but securely forever. By this prophecy of their own faith alone, they then claim the second death now has any more power over them.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It's the same kind of prophecy by faith alone, that doctrinally says their own continued unrighteous works can no more be condemned the same as others.

We see then how it's not simple disagreement with some amils, but also a fervent push to have all agree with them for their conscience sake. So much so that they must ridicule and/or seek to destroy the character of anyone that persistently disagrees with their self-justifying prophecy.

It's as old as Cain having a little 'talk' with righteous Abel, about the true sacrifice of the Lord.

and all-powered, all-authority reign.

While reigning.

God wants His Son's reign to fail.

It's inwardly corrupt people upon the earth, that formerly kept the law outwardly, but inevitably fail when they are loosed to their own power and will without law.

The Lord does not fail during His reign on earth, neither does His law, when people rebel against Him and His law, that is no longer executed by Him on earth.

Psa 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

At the last rebellion of sinful man on earth, it will be with fire that the Lord speaks and vexes in sore displeasure. The first time was with water.

 

[Musicmaster]

The Septuagint is known to have been the standard issue Tanakh for the thousands of synagogues at the time of Yahshuah and was considered equal to the Hebrew autograph in authority without question among the priesthood and other scholars of those days.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

What REALLY strokes the cat's fur the wrong direction is to talk in some circles about how Yahshuah actually read from a Greek version of the OT scriptures, with only the Pharisees and others who were of the scholastic minority among the Jews who could even read, write, or even speak in Hebrew. Wishful thinking is prolific in those circles, if not scholarship and pursuit of truth.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The claim to following Tanak...the oldest codex copies available, being the Leningrad Codex, dating to around 11th centuty AD, was always a prideful claim made by my ancestors who always puffed out their chests over, as if that were something to be proud of...it just all doesn't pan out!

The oldest available Hebrew texts still around today are the Masoretic texts, dating from the 9th century AD. The Septuagint Greek dates back to two to three centuries BC, and some people today rally around a much more recent set of manuscripts over and against the more ancient Greek manuscripts because of the languages...as if that absolutely defines authenticity and accuracy over the age of each. The battle cry is "Hellenized," with the scoundrel relatives of mine never admitting that the Greek language contained FAR greater precision in written language than Hebrew...

Wow, the manic adherence I observed among those relatives of mine, given the continuing stiff-necked indifference they still exhibit to this day against stacks and stacks of facts against their claims to the contrary, all I can do is sit back and observe the corrupted mixture of those ancient fairy tales intermixed with Christianity (among those of my relatives who are now Messianic), and we have a form of Christianity that is such a radical departure, and yet very much akin to the Judaizers Paul fought against with such sweat on his brow.

The confusing symphony in all this has bred a system of belief that crackles and sputters under the feet of those who walk it, with them thinking that they're on solid grounding in the midst of the known inconsistencies and harbinger departures from reality that fosters a boomerang effect that ends up whacking their own across the backs of their heads, with them looking around with a bewildering cacophony of random notes ringing in their ears that otherwise would make rats want to eat each other, very much like mosh pit heavy metal music of today.

Therein is why I find it such a blessing that we don't have to rely on this noisy roar of voices demanding attention and adherence. The Spirit of Yah is the One who gives absolute truth to those who simply ask. (1 John2:27)

The battle over which texts to follow, with many fallowing the corrupted texts of the modern translations into English, based upon a very small hand full of manuscripts known to have been altered multiple times in times past, and therefore their blind followers claiming that the pre-trib position is false...yeah, right. We have the freedom to follow whatever one so desires, but I choose to not be a part of the corrupted manuscript gang adherents, and seek out the Lord for HIS Thoughts and HIS Truth.

MM

 

[Ghada]

It's interesting how the altered Alexandrian manuscripts, which are known to have been manipulated by the Gnostics headquartered in ancient Alexandria, corrupted just the right places to give the impression that the pre-wrath, post-trib, and for some the amillennialism, positions seeming credibility.

MM

Ahh. The good ol' manuscript gambit. As though we can't read the words we have, and know for sure if they must be those of God alone, because they perfectly all agree with one another, without errancy nor contradiction.

One group famous for departing what is written, toi argue about manuscripts, are the created christers.

 

[Musicmaster]

Ahh. The good ol' manuscript gambit. As though we can't read the words we have, and know for sure if they must be those of God alone, because they perfectly all agree with one another, without errancy nor contradiction.

One group famous for departing what is written, toi argue about manuscripts, are the created christers.

I would agree that the anti-intellectuals out there don't like discussions about manuscript credibility, and they will even claim there are no contradictions, when in fact there are numerous contradictions in the Alexandrian manuscripturs.

MM

 

[Josheb]

Ending His Millennial reign on earth according to the prophesied thousand years, is fulfilling prophecy, not failing in His reign on earth.

Sophistry.

Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?

 

[Musicmaster]

Sophistry.

Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Throwing around the accusation of sophistry without knowing all the facts and considering all the implications, that's foolhardy.

WHERE do you suppose the saints who were killed in the tribulation will reign with Christ for a thousand years? If you're going to allegorize it all, then you can then make it say whatever you wish. So, without allegorizing it all, where will they reign if not earth, with Christ right here on this earth with His people?

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

Actually, the Church is shown to have crowns, so yes, there is a grouping of saints who do have that reward portrayed within scripture, they being the 24 elders, who are representative of the Church in Heaven before the seals are opened.

Twelve, the final authority of God. Twelve vicar crowns of Christ. Everyone receives the same reward "eternal life"

 

[Mr GLee]

Sophistry.

Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?

Satin's goal is to deceive mankind to believe God is a Jewish man as King of kings

Some did know Christ the invisible head the father that worked in the Son of man Jesus. That one time prophesied demonstration is over. Jesus like all sons of God died not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body

God is not a man

2 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[Mr GLee]

Twelve, the final authority of God. Twelve vicar crowns of Christ. Everyone receives the same reward "eternal life"

Lol Put up your dukes round 2

Laughing is not giving your opinion.

Do they need more gifts of grace as crowns. How many crowns of false pride does one need or is the word twelve the final authority of God to whatsoever is in view?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

 

[Musicmaster]

Lol Put up your dukes round 2

Laughing is not giving your opinion.

Do they need more gifts of grace as crowns. How many crowns of false pride does one need or is the word twelve the final authority of God to whatsoever is in view?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

These little jabs from the dark don't give anyone something of substance against which to rebuff, so what's your point?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There are several crowns mentioned for the Church (but not for the tribulation saints):

Philippians 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, [my] dearly beloved.

What crown? Well, this gives to us some idea:

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

The Greek "stephanos" in this verse is defined as a literal crown, and one may call it the crown of salvation, but this verse speaks of even more than just merely saved, but actually running the race appointed to him, such as evangelizing, or the ministry of helps...seeking to exceed and go beyond the mere minimum since "running" speaks loud volumes to strenuously working for a greater reward.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

The crown (stephanos) in this verse is also an actual crown of reward, defined as "That which is an ornament and honor to one."

I could go on and on, for those who think that there will only be one crown for all, which is utterly false as Revelation 7 points out.

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

These little jabs from the dark don't give anyone something of substance against which to rebuff, so what's your point?

MM

LOl The final round ding ding .

Is Jesus the Son of man your brother in the Lord?

 

[Musicmaster]

LOl The final round ding ding .

Is Jesus the Son of man your brother in the Lord?

This is utterly irrational. What is your point? Can you at least state that in more than just 11 word jab sentences? Can you at least answer with enough precision that others can understand what you're talking about?

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

This is utterly irrational. What is your point? Can you at least state that in more than just 11 word jab sentences? Can you at least answer with enough precision that others can understand what you're talking about?

MM

Sorry, for any extra work,

I should of take a writing class when younger I hated English or grammar class. I sat in the back as a slow learner to embarrassed to raise my hand No support from home. . I dont think I have actually read more than four books beside of the Bible . I did love the comics. or what was called the green sheet

The thing a person hates can become a desire to learn .

Jesus. the Son of man our brother in the Lord as a prophet and apostle declared the will of the Father, the unseen head Christ what he said it is writen below .

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

God is not a man.

 

[Josheb]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Throwing around the accusation of sophistry without knowing all the facts and considering all the implications, that's foolhardy.

WHERE do you suppose the saints who were killed in the tribulation will reign with Christ for a thousand years? If you're going to allegorize it all, then you can then make it say whatever you wish. So, without allegorizing it all, where will they reign if not earth, with Christ right here on this earth with His people?

MM

Read it again. Read it exactly as written. Not once does Revelation 19 or 20 ever explicitly state Jesus is physically on earth. Read it again. Read it investigatively. Read it looking for the explicit mention of Jesus physically on earth. Read it two and three times, each time increasing your earnestness to find the explicit mention of Jesus physically on earth. If you read the text exactly as written diligently looking for the explicit mention you will find there is none.

There is none!

Verse 4 makes no explicit mention whatsoever of Jesus physically being on earth. Neither does any other verse in the entire chapter. Everything in the entire chapter is commanded from heaven, where Jesus is already enthroned, and those commands have effect on earth. So, I am going to give you and @Ghada another chance to answer the question asked.....


Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?


.

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry, for any extra work,

I should of take a writing class when younger I hated English or grammar class. I sat in the back as a slow learner to embarrassed to raise my hand No support from home. . I dont think I have actually read more than four books beside of the Bible . I did love the comics. or what was called the green sheet

The thing a person hates can become a desire to learn .

Jesus. the Son of man our brother in the Lord as a prophet and apostle declared the will of the Father, the unseen head Christ what he said it is writen below .

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

God is not a man.

I would like to recommend, if I may, that you study the interpretational concept called "Systematic Theology." What that study method does is push people to consider what ALL of scripture has to say on a topic rather than to settle on just one or two verses as being able to describe, in totality, a doctrine. You see, another piece of this puzzle about Christ is this:

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

So, yes, Christ Jesus is indeed God incarnate...meaning this:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So, given that, therefore, Christ Jesus is fully man and fully God, with the fullness of Deity having dwelt in Him bodily, He is exactly who and what He says that He is. That He is fully man, He is the brother to those who do the Will of the Father. Although there are those out there who might claim that this violates some law of nature and/or physics, they must also consider that He is the Creator of all the laws of physics, and therefore can and does within this realm whatsoever He desires, and in spite of these laws.

Does that help?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Read it again. Read it exactly as written. Not once does Revelation 19 or 20 ever explicitly state Jesus is physically on earth. Read it again. Read it investigatively. Read it looking for the explicit mention of Jesus physically on earth. Read it two and three times, each time increasing your earnestness to find the explicit mention of Jesus physically on earth. If you read the text exactly as written diligently looking for the explicit mention you will find there is none.

There is none!

Verse 4 makes no explicit mention whatsoever of Jesus physically being on earth. Neither does any other verse in the entire chapter. Everything in the entire chapter is commanded from heaven, where Jesus is already enthroned, and those commands have effect on earth. So, I am going to give you and @Ghada another chance to answer the question asked.....


Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?


.

Dude, what you appear to be missing is that Jesus does return to this earth, with the saints, and nowhere does it state that He/they return to Heaven after destroying Israel's enemies. So, the ball's now in your court to find such a claim without injecting into the scriptures what isn't there!

MM