A problem with premillennialism

[Musicmaster]

I'm sure you'll understand if I choose to go with the words of Jesus over your own.

No problem. Yes, we all have the freedom to ignore the obvious. The Lord had no problem with reasoning together, especially when dealing with His word to us in all its implications and conclusions.

MM

 

[Eleanor]

No problem. Yes, we all have the freedom to ignore the obvious. The Lord had no problem with reasoning together, especially when dealing with His word to us in all its implications and conclusions.

MM

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Ghada]

Would you clarify your meaning in this response?

Sorry. I was trying to be witty about my attempted sarcasm.

Actually, the Church is shown to have crowns,

I only read of enduring saints finishing the good race to recieve the crown of life, glory, and righteousness. Other than that, there is the crown of joy for the ministers building up the saints in Christ Jesus.

Nothing is said about them being seen wearing them.

Other than the 24 elders in Rev 4, there is only One in Scripture, that is ever seen having a golden crown on His head: The Son of man harvesting from the cloud in the air.

so yes, there is a grouping of saints who do have that reward portrayed within scripture,

Portrayed is not seen nor shown.

they being the 24 elders, who are representative of the Church in Heaven before the seals are opened.

24 elders is true. Representative of the church cannot be true at that time, because that is a specific time in heaven before all prophecy of Scripture comes to pass.

Many saints have yet to endure tribulation of their own unto the end.

However, it is true all overcoming saints shall at one time sit with the Lord in His own throne.

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Talk about a glorified Santa Claus moment.

Can you provide a reference for that?

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Luk 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Blessed and holy.

 

[Ghada]

That sounds like Replacement Theology.

If you mean repenting Gentiles are now part of the Israel of God, by being grafted into His green and holy olive tree, then I'd call it supplemental and/or reconciliation theology.

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Col 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The Millennium is focused upon Israel and Jerusalem as the government over the world at that time, not the Church.

Only if you want to say the resurrected saints governing with Him, are no longer called the church and body of Christ.

For John to have written down the very dictation from Yahshuah Himself in stating that it is those who are not watching are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming are those to whom it was be as a thief.

Are you saying those watching will know beforehand the hour of His coming?

Scripture says neither them watching nor them not watching will know the hour. But only them watching will be ready at any time of His coming. The rest not watching will be caught with their unrighteous pants down, and will be left on earth with the hypocrites of the world.

It becomes glaringly clear that it is not the unbelievers who will know the hour of His coming.

None in heaven nor on earth will know the hour beforehand, not even the Son.

However, when that hour is come, then all heaven and the earth of believers and unbelievers alike, will know that hour is come, because He will be seen by all as lightning through the sky.

Only the righteous saints watching for Him, will be ready for His coming and appearing in the air.

Mat 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

None of the unrighteous shall be ready for Him to come again, including them naming His name:

Mat 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

 

[Ghada]

There is a level of sanctimonious disregard in some systems of thought concerning this aspect of rightly dividing the word of truth.

If it's true, then it's a rebuke to having several systems of thought about Scripture, when there is only one way of rightly teaching it.

What part of it do you object to?

Making difference between what is written, and what is not? Only teaching Scripture of God by what is written?

We can teach and ought to listen to what is not written, as though it were?

No one is saying we can't imagine nor entertain things not written, but only as personal interpretation and speculation. Such things can be interesting and fun, but ought never be preached nor prophecied as Scripture itself.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

There is plenty of private interpretation within Scripture, but unless it is plainly written, it ought not be ministered as though it is written.

So, please don't assume that rightly dividing the word of truth cannot provide a meaningful truth from what is stated in one regard, and that has an obvious connection by way of the flip-side (so to speak) that has solidity well rooted in what is expressly stated.

If you mean what is written in one place can be applied to what it written eslewhere, and vica versa, in order to prove the truth of all Scripture taken together, then I certainly agree. So long as it's written in one place or another.

It's called Scripture teaching itself. Or Scripture teaches Scripture.

Only when inserting what is never written in Scripture, is the Scripture added to and corrupted by mishandling of man.

Or, when what is written is taken away or ignored altogether. I call that isolating Scripture, to teach something independent of all Scripture.

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry. I was trying to be witty about my attempted sarcasm.

Can you provide the verse reference?

I only read of enduring saints finishing the good race to recieve the crown of life, glory, and righteousness. Other than that, there is the crown of joy for the ministers building up the saints in Christ Jesus.

Nothing is said about them being seen wearing them.

Other than the 24 elders in Rev 4, there is only One in Scripture, that is ever seen having a golden crown on His head: The Son of man harvesting from the cloud in the air.

I'm not sure why you say this, because the text is quite clear that they ALL have crowns:

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne [were] twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Where did you ever see that only one had a crown?

24 elders is true. Representative of the church cannot be true at that time, because that is a specific time in heaven before all prophecy of Scripture comes to pass.

Many saints have yet to endure tribulation of their own unto the end.

However, it is true all overcoming saints shall at one time sit with the Lord in His own throne.

You seem to be assuming upon the text what it clearly refutes. Have you ever read Revelation for what it says?

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

So you see, Heaven is not constrained by time as we know it here on earth. John clearly wrote of things that were to take place in the future to John's life, back then, on this earth.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Only if you want to say the resurrected saints governing with Him, are no longer called the church and body of Christ.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I was referring to the tribulation saints. They are not a part of the Church, but are the redeemed who had failed to seek the new birth before Christ took the Church from the earth, leaving behind those who were not prepared. The scriptures clearly show to us that there is a difference between the Church and the tribulation saints. They are not one and the same, as can be seen in the reward differences alone, not to mention that the Church is not standing among those who came from the tribulation.

Are you saying those watching will know beforehand the hour of His coming?

Scripture says neither them watching nor them not watching will know the hour. But only them watching will be ready at any time of His coming. The rest not watching will be caught with their unrighteous pants down, and will be left on earth with the hypocrites of the world.

What did Jesus say? Ignoring the obvious on the basis of claiming that it's not stated explicitly is a most remarkably indifference to the obvious. Jesus clearly stated:

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Seriously, will you agree, or do you not agree, that among all who are professing believers, those who do not watch, THEY are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming. What else could it possibly mean in relation to those who ARE watching? I mean, come on! I've heard Agnostics claim that those who watch still cannot know the hour of His coming. Are you Agnostic? I mean, if you are, then that's your choice, but at least I will have some idea as to why you otherwise deny the obvious conclusion to the very message Jesus left to us.

None in heaven nor on earth will know the hour beforehand, not even the Son.

Yes, it will not be known by any man until it is revealed to those who are watching.

However, when that hour is come, then all heaven and the earth of believers and unbelievers alike, will know that hour is come, because He will be seen by all as lightning through the sky.

Well, Jesus doesn't agree with you, because that event being as a thief is ONLY that way in the minds and hearts of those who are NOT watching.

You can deny the obvious, but then that's on you, not me or anyone else.

MM

 

[Ghada]

Can you provide the verse reference?

No verse, just sarcasm fell flat.

I'm not sure why you say this, because the text is quite clear that they ALL have crowns:

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne [were] twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Exactly. All 24 of them at that time.

Where did you ever see that only one had a crown?

You missed the part about that One being the Son of man on the cloud.

You seem to be assuming upon the text what it clearly refutes.

That every overcomer will sit with the Lord in His own throne? Did you miss the quoted verse?

Have you ever read Revelation for what it says?

And teach only what it says, and never what it doesn't say. No Scripture in Revelation ever says the saints in the first resurrection are seen wearing crowns, whether of gold or not. Nor the saints reigning with the Lamb forever in the hew heaven and earth.

Do you not understand the difference between teaching what is written, and not trying to teach something not written?

Where is any Scripture revealing any resurrected saints having crowns on their heads? The only resurrected One spoken of having a golden crown, is the Son of man on the cloud of harvest.

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

So you see, Heaven is not constrained by time as we know it here on earth. John clearly wrote of things that were to take place in the future to John's life, back then, on this earth.

Exactly, including the eternal future of the new heaven and earth.

I still don't read of any resurrected saints eternally reiging with Him, having any crowns on their heads, whether of gold or not. Nor has anyone quoted it.

Do you? Then quote it if it's written. If not, then you can think and imagine about all the crowns of gold on resurrected heads you wish. Just don't teach it to me, as though it were Scripture of truth.

It's not a big ask.

 

[Musicmaster]

Exactly. All 24 of them at that time.

Nope. What John saw was far future to his time back then, so those elders in Heaven are yet to be there, which will be immediately after the rapture, right before the opening of the seals.

You missed the part about that One being the Son of man on the cloud.

Please quote the verse so that we can all see what you're talking about, or is that more sarcasm?

And teach only what it says, and never what it doesn't say. No Scripture in Revelation ever says the saints in the first resurrection are seen wearing crowns, whether of gold or not. Nor the saints reigning with the Lamb forever in the hew heaven and earth.

Oh, but it absolutely does, and I quoted it. That you choose to not believe what scripture says, that's entirely on you. If you disagree, then quote it and highlight the pertinent portions just as I have done, if you please.

Do you not understand the difference between teaching what is written, and not trying to teach something not written?

The Lord gave us brains to think with, and He expects us to use what was given. When it is said ONLY of those who do not watch are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming...what else can anyone conclude?

Where is any Scripture revealing any resurrected saints having crowns on their heads? The only resurrected One spoken of having a golden crown, is the Son of man on the cloud of harvest.

Wow. I keep quoting this stuff to you, and it just rolls off like water on a duck's back!

Revelation 1:4-6
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

And even more here:

Revelation 5:8-9
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

That can't be the Jew only, and it can't be the angels, and the saints from the tribulation aren't yet up there before the throne yet since the 2 Billion plus deaths from the opening of the first four seals had not yet happened, so it has to to be Church after the rapture.

Who else could they be?

MM

 

[Eleanor]

No verse, just sarcasm fell flat.
Exactly. All 24 of them at that time.
You missed the part about that One being the Son of man on the cloud.
That every overcomer will sit with the Lord in His own throne? Did you miss the quoted verse?
And teach only what it says, and never what it doesn't say. No Scripture in Revelation ever says the saints in the first resurrection are seen wearing crowns, whether of gold or not. Nor the saints reigning with the Lamb forever in the hew heaven and earth.
Do you not understand the difference between teaching what is written, and not trying to teach something not written?
Where is any Scripture revealing any resurrected saints having crowns on their heads? The only resurrected One spoken of having a golden crown, is the Son of man on the cloud of harvest.

There are crowns in Rev 4:10.

Exactly, including the eternal future of the new heaven and earth.
I still don't read of any resurrected saints eternally reiging with Him, having any crowns on their heads, whether of gold or not. Nor has anyone quoted it.
Do you? Then quote it if it's written. If not, then you can think and imagine about all the crowns of gold on resurrected heads you wish. Just don't teach it to me, as though it were Scripture of truth.
It's not a big ask.

 

[Eleanor]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I was referring to the tribulation saints. They are not a part of the Church, but are the redeemed who had failed to seek the new birth before Christ took the Church from the earth, leaving behind those who were not prepared. The scriptures clearly show to us that there is a difference between the Church and the tribulation saints. They are not one and the same, as can be seen in the reward differences alone, not to mention that the Church is not standing among those who came from the tribulation.
What did Jesus say? Ignoring the obvious on the basis of claiming that it's not stated explicitly is a most remarkably indifference to the obvious. Jesus clearly stated:
Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Seriously, will you agree, or do you not agree, that among all who are professing believers, those who do not watch, THEY are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming. What else could it possibly mean in relation to those who ARE watching? I mean, come on! I've heard Agnostics claim that those who watch still cannot know the hour of His coming. Are you Agnostic? I mean, if you are, then that's your choice, but at least I will have some idea as to why you otherwise deny the obvious conclusion to the very message Jesus left to us.

Yes, it will not be known by any man until it is revealed to those who are watching.

It is revealed by his appearing for which they are watching, while others are not.

Well, Jesus doesn't agree with you, because that event being as a thief is ONLY that way in the minds and hearts of those who are NOT watching.

Not what he said. . .

It is as unknown as a thief in the night for all mankind, where those who are watching are not unprepared, but rather are prepared for the thief in the night.

You handle the Scriptures much too loosely. . .

 

[Musicmaster]

It is revealed by his appearing for which they are watching, while others are not.

That's not what the grammar of the Greek says to us in the original. You can believe that, but that's on you. The grammar betrays a meaning that is consistent with what I stated.

It is as unknown as a thief in the night for all mankind, where those who are watching are not unprepared, but rather are prepared for the thief in the night.

You're doing the usual eisegetical hermeneutic that is a common practice among some.

You handle the Scriptures much too loosely. . .

Literal interpretational hermeneutic is not loose at all. That's how I stick to what is actually said, and also delves into the implications and conclusions to which the literal leads the reader.

MM

 

[Ghada]

I'll divide into subarguments to keep things focused

They are not a part of the Church, but are the redeemed who had failed to seek the new birth before Christ took the Church from the earth, leaving behind those who were not prepared.

All saints are tribulation saints. The body of Christ is not divided.

The ones not prepared are the unrighteous tares in the churches, that name Christ and repent not to depart from their iniquity. They are appointed with the hypocrites of the earth, and have no more space to repent. They are the dead limbs cut off and ready only for the punishing fire.


Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 2:21
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

When the righteous wheat are resurrected and ascend to the Lord in the air, then the great tribulation of the Lord's wrath over the earth begins. All inhabitors are the unrepented, and Scripture says none will repent during the plagues of the Lord.

Rev 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

His great plagues and destruction of the armies gathered against the Lamb and His saints around Judea, will kill very many on earth, more thanj ever before in one season.

Psa 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

However, there will be those of the nations remaining alive to be ruled by the Lord. He will first judge between sheep and goats, with the sheep not being saints, being sinners with showing kindness and care in times of trouble. These will be saved by the King and enter into His kingdom of heaven on earth.

The unfeeling goats on earth will be executed by sentence of the King.

Eph 4:17
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Not all unbelieving sinners are the world's reprobate evil-doers in their manners, even as not all believers naming Christ are His doers of His righteousness.

The scriptures clearly show to us that there is a difference between the Church and the tribulation saints.

Once again, all saints on earth are tribulation saints, and the godly shall suffer persecution from angry sinners.

So long as this is denied, then the error of dividing Christ's body will continue.

If a prophetic division is made between the resurrected church in the air, and any saints alive on earth suffering tribulation of the Lord's own wrath, then the Scripture is broken: None of Christ's saints are ever appointed to suffer His wrath on earth.

The Lord's wrath is only for the unrepented and unrighteous, whether naming His name or not.

The only 'Christians' on earth appointed to His wrath at His coming again, are the hypocrite tares separated from His good wheat at the harvest.

They are not one and the same,

Christ's body is not divided. Any doctrine and prophecy seeking to do so, is false.

Rom 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:10

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The unity of Christ's body specifically includes during time of judgment of the Lord.

as can be seen in the reward differences alone, not to mention that the Church is not standing among those who came from the tribulation.

What Scripture?

There is one equal reward for all enduring saints: The crown of life, righteousness, and glory of the Lord.

Ministerial rewards are cities during His Millenium.

 

[Eleanor]

That's not what the grammar of the Greek says to us in the original. You can believe that, but that's on you. The grammar betrays a meaning that is consistent with what I stated.

Nor does the grammar of the Greek "betray" a previous revealing to anyone.
"Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. . .if the owner of the house had know at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and not allowed his house to be broken into (not suffered harm). So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect him."

You're doing the usual eisegetical hermeneutic that is a common practice among some.

In which you have not shown any Biblical error, only your personal disagreement with it for the sake of your personal eschatology.

Literal interpretational hermeneutic is not loose at all. That's how I stick to what is actually said, and also delves into the implications and conclusions to which the literal leads the reader.

Contradiction of terms. . .

The implications and conclusions being your own personal views, which do not agree with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

 

[Musicmaster]

All saints are tribulation saints. The body of Christ is not divided.

This is a non-argument. The term you chose is not the term I see in scripture. Just as there are distinctions in reward, there are also distinctions in groupings in Heaven. Division is a term that denotes division in the sense that we are not all united under Christ, which is not at all what I had stated nor implied.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

However, in reward, there are distinctions. The saints who will come from the tribulation will not have crowns as is shown that those from the Church and the rapture do have, as exemplified by the 24 elders. ALL are in Christ Jesus, but the rewards for being a part of the Church, having been faithful before the wrath of the Lord is poured out, the rewards are indeed different.

The ones not prepared are the unrighteous tares in the churches, that name Christ and repent not to depart from their iniquity. They are appointed with the hypocrites of the earth, and have no more space to repent. They are the dead limbs cut off and ready only for the punishing fire.

Those not watching are not watching for various reasons, and they are the ones who will not be made aware of the hour of the Lord's coming, and therefore the coming of the Lord for His Church will be as a thief to those not watching. That clearly is what my quoted text from scripture states.

When the righteous wheat are resurrected and ascend to the Lord in the air, then the great tribulation of the Lord's wrath over the earth begins. All inhabitors are the unrepented, and Scripture says none will repent during the plagues of the Lord.

Notice "...the rest..." You left them out, so there will indeed be many, many people come to Christ in faith in the midst of the wrath of the Lamb being poured out upon the earth starting with the very first seal, with more than 2 Billion killed in the first four seals. Revelation 7 makes that abundantly clear.

His great plagues and destruction of the armies gathered against the Lamb and His saints around Judea, will kill very many on earth, more thanj ever before in one season.

Revelation shows to us that about the same number of people are killed in the first half as are killed in the second half. Granted, the mathematically challenged out there don't seem to realize that, but it is the number that is given in Revelation for all to see.

Once again, all saints on earth are tribulation saints, and the godly shall suffer persecution from angry sinners.

If you are talking about right now, before the rapture, no. That is not at all true. Persecution and tribulation from the wrath of the Lamb are not at all the same thing. To say that we are in the tribulation now is the same error of Amillennialism.

So long as this is denied, then the error of dividing Christ's body will continue.

It is only hypocrites who divide over eschatological differences.

If a prophetic division is made between the resurrected church in the air, and any saints alive on earth suffering tribulation of the Lord's own wrath, then the Scripture is broken: None of Christ's saints are ever appointed to suffer His wrath on earth.

Agreed. Those who come to Christ in the tribulation are going to have to endure for their having not come to Christ before the tribulation starts. They will have no deliverance other than through death, except for those who remain alive to the very end.

The Lord's wrath is only for the unrepented and unrighteous, whether naming His name or not.

Those who come to Christ only after the start of the tribulation will also suffer the effects of the Lamb's wrath upon this earth and its dwellers. Again, the text is simply too clear on this point.

The only 'Christians' on earth appointed to His wrath at His coming again, are the hypocrite tares separated from His good wheat at the harvest.

Wrong. Those people who come to Christ in the tribulation will still be just as saved, but only not delivered from the wrath as will be the Church before it all begins.

MM

 

[Eleanor]

If you mean repenting Gentiles are now part of the Israel of God, by being grafted into His green and holy olive tree, then
I'd call it supplemental and/or reconciliation theology.

Or fulfillment theology, of the OT church in the NT church (Ro 11:16-23).

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Col 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Only if you want to say the resurrected saints governing with Him, are no longer called the church and body of Christ.




Are you saying those watching will know beforehand the hour of His coming?

Scripture says neither them watching nor them not watching will know the hour. But only them watching will be ready at any time of His coming. The rest not watching will be caught with their unrighteous pants down, and will be left on earth with the hypocrites of the world.


None in heaven nor on earth will know the hour beforehand, not even the Son.

However, when that hour is come, then all heaven and the earth of believers and unbelievers alike, will know that hour is come, because He will be seen by all as lightning through the sky.

Only the righteous saints watching for Him, will be ready for His coming and appearing in the air.

Mat 24:46
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

None of the unrighteous shall be ready for Him to come again, including them naming His name:

Mat 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

 

[Musicmaster]

Nor does the grammar of the Greek "betray" a previous revealing to anyone.
"Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. . .if the owner of the house had know at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and not allowed his house to be broken into (not suffered harm). So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect him."

That is not the pertinent text to which I pointed and quoted. Yahshuah spoke truly to THOSE people, who did not indeed know the hour of His coming. What I said is that the Lord will (future tense) make the hour of His coming known.

Look, if you don't want to know the hour of His coming before He arrives, then simply don't watch for it. Just languish and enjoy the worldly things as most are doing and will continue to do. Just take it easy.

As for me, I will continue to watch and to pray for the very Thoughts and Ways of the Lord that are above ours as are the heavens above the earth, for never did the Lord ever command that we not ask for His Thoughts and His Ways.

Do as you wish, but your beliefs about all this do not change the clear, literal language of scripture. The allegorical approach is where so many make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say. Not me. I love the word of God, and I love the Lord for His promise to reveal all Truth to those who simply ask of Him, therefore not leaving us all to flounder around in this fallen world, having to grope around for what we think might be the truth, or falling victim to the beliefs of others.

MM

 

[Ghada]

No one knows the hour of the Lord's return, beforehand. Neither does the Son.

All on earth all will know the hour of His coming, because every eye on earth will see Him.

What did Jesus say? Ignoring the obvious on the basis of claiming that it's not stated explicitly is a most remarkably indifference to the obvious. Jesus clearly stated:

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

No man can know the hour of His coming beforehand. And all men will know the hour of His coming, which is as lightening shining over all the earth.

Mat 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Scripture does not say He will be swift as lightning, but only as brightly shining for all eyes on earth to see, and to know that the promised hour of His coming, is come.

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The division is made between the righteous saints ready and watching, and all the rest not watching nor ready, which includes the tares naming His name.

Them saints remaining alive on earth watching and ready, will rise to meet Him in the air, and the rest on earth will wail because of His great judgment and wrath now come.

Seriously, will you agree, or do you not agree, that among all who are professing believers, those who do not watch, THEY are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming. What else could it possibly mean in relation to those who ARE watching?

See above.

There is a difference between knowing the hour beforehand, which is the false prophecy of many decievers and charlatans, and knowing the hour is come, which is seen and known by all on earth.

I mean, come on! I've heard Agnostics claim that those who watch still cannot know the hour of His coming. Are you Agnostic? I mean, if you are, then that's your choice, but at least I will have some idea as to why you otherwise deny the obvious conclusion to the very message Jesus left to us.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The Lord specifically warns His own watchers, that they will not know the hour of His coming, beforehand.

Yes, it will not be known by any man until it is revealed to those who are watching.

It will not be known by any man, until it is revealed to every eye seeing Him come again through the air.

Are you saying that He will only be seen by His saints watching for Him?

Some say He has already come gain to earth 'spiritually'. Are you saying something similar, that He will come again invisibly, and only be seen by them having eyes to see?

Well, Jesus doesn't agree with you, because that event being as a thief is ONLY that way in the minds and hearts of those who are NOT watching.

So, you do preach you can know the hour of His coming beforehand.

Do you already have a prediction of that hour, or just not yet? Is there only a 'near window' immediately before His coming, that only the watchers can know?

Will the foreknowing watchers then be able to warn others about His imminent return?

Why would anyone believe it anymore than any other past deciever and charlatan?

I know at least one great watcher declaring the Lord's coming new year's day 2018. I laughed at him and anyone believing him then, and still do. Although there's plenty of the usual destruction to the faith of his foolish followers since then...

 

[Ghada]

Or fulfillment theology, of the OT church in the NT church (Ro 11:16-23).

True. This is more Scriptural. Fulfillment of the NT prophecy and promise of old.

 

[Musicmaster]

No one knows the hour of the Lord's return, beforehand. Neither does the Son.

That was and is true up to this point. What you missed is that the Lord will obviously let the watchers know right before His coming. What you said does not negate what I said. Jesus only said the non-watchers will not (future tense) know the hour of HIs coming. Why that seems so difficult for you to grasp, I have no idea. I never said anyone back then and even now, at this moment, knows the hour of His coming for us. I spoke only of the future, right before His coming, that He will ensure those who are watching will THEN know the hour of His coming before it happens.

Charlatans also ignore the obvious, so that goes both ways.

MM