A problem with premillennialism

[Eleanor]

That is not the pertinent text to which I pointed and quoted. Yahshuah spoke truly to THOSE people,

So what Jesus said applies only to the people living at the time of Christ?

who did not indeed know the hour of His coming. What I said is that the Lord will (future tense) make the hour of His coming known.

Look, if you don't want to know the hour of His coming before He arrives, then simply don't watch for it. Just languish and enjoy the worldly things as most are doing and will continue to do. Just take it easy.

As for me, I will continue to watch and to pray for the very Thoughts and Ways of the Lord that are above ours as are the heavens above the earth, for never did the Lord ever command that we not ask for His Thoughts and His Ways.

Do as you wish, but your beliefs about all this do not change the clear, literal language of scripture. The allegorical approach is where so many make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say. Not me. I love the word of God, and I love the Lord for His promise to reveal all Truth to those who simply ask of Him, therefore not leaving us all to flounder around in this fallen world, having to grope around for what we think might be the truth, or falling victim to the beliefs of others.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

So what Jesus said applies only to the people living at the time of Christ?

If you read those verses you quoted more carefully, please note that they were spoken in PRESENT tense at the time those phrases were spoken and written, not in the future tense that so many try to force into the text what isn't there. The broad brush stroke idea that the meaning was that nobody could EVER know the hour of His coming when it clearly was spoken in the PRESENT tense, that broadness of over-application simply is not reflected in the text. If you believe it is, then please show it to us. I'd really like to see that.

MM

 

[Eleanor]

If you read those verses you quoted more carefully, please note that they were spoken in PRESENT tense at the time those phrases were spoken and written, not in the future tense that so many try to force into the text what isn't there. The broad brush stroke idea that the meaning was that nobody could EVER know the hour of His coming when it clearly was spoken in the PRESENT tense, that broadness of over-application simply is not reflected in the text. If you believe it is, then please show it to us. I'd really like to see that.

MM

"He who does not believe in the Son of Man is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

So Jn 3:18, being spoken in present tense, does not apply now?

 

[Ghada]

Nope. What John saw was far future to his time back then,

Who says? What John saw was immediately upon being translated from Patmos into the throneroom of the Lord.

To say He is translated into a future seen first, is unreasonably based upon a personal prophecy of one's own.

so those elders in Heaven are yet to be there, which will be immediately after the rapture, right before the opening of the seals.

I am aware of the teaching that Rev 4 is the rapture of the church in the person of John. And that it preceeds the rising tribulation and wrath of the last great antichrist in Rev 6, where saints remaining on earth are martyred. Which is a supposed basis for separating resurrected and raptured saints from continuing martyed saints on earth. Or, as you put it, separation between the 'church' and the 'tribulation' saints on earth.

The problem is that the first resurrection and rapture of the church, is of all departed saints in heaven at the hour of the Lord's return, as well as all saints remaining alive on earth. And so they all acend together to meet Him in the air:

1Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Therefore, Rev 4 cannot be the first resurrection and rapture of the 'church' in the air at His return, that does not include the 'tribulation' martyrs in the first resurrection of all saints at His return to reign with Him.

There is only one second coming of the Lord, with only a single first resurrection of His saints to meet Him and reign with Him on earth.

Rev 5:8
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It's therefore more reasonable to conclude John in Rev 4 is translated into the present throneroom of the Lord, where at least 24 of the departed saints are now in His presence.

2Co 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

There are 24 of elders having crowns of gold. If they represent a mulititude, then it is all the deaprted righteous saints beginning with Abel, now in the presence of the Lord.

Please quote the verse so that we can all see what you're talking about, or is that more sarcasm?

Already did at the first. See Rev 14.

Oh, but it absolutely does, and I quoted it.

I've only seen quotes from Scripture of the 24 elders in the throneroom. Departed saints in the presence of the Lord, seen by John immediately upon being translated from Patmos. (In the 90's)

And, who's to say they pick those crowns back up again, after throwing them before the throne of the Lord?

When it is said ONLY of those who do not watch are the ones who will not know the hour of His coming...

Isolating any Scripture from context of all Scripture, is the most common way of misreading it.

Mar 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

No man, nor angel, nor the Son Himself knows the hour of His coming, before the Father commands Him to return with power and glory. Every man and angel and the Son will know His hour is come to earth again, because all in heaven and on earth with see Him do so. (With many armies of angels coming with Him from heaven...)

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

And as if that wasn't enough to prevent believers from saying they will know the hour beforehand, it is specifically to the watchers that He repeats His warning: Not only will no man on earth know His hour is coming, but especially not them watching for His hour to come.

Any belief of anyone watching for the Lord, that they will know before His coming hour, is rejection of Jesus' specific warning to all believing watchers.

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Don't see anything about crowns, much less wearing any.

Simple lack of word discipline with Scripture, is also a common way to not preach what Scripture says, but only what we want God to say.

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

The same here. Don't read of any crowns.

What we see is assumption of words not written. The 24 elders did have golden crowns in Rev 4. But those crowns were cast before the throne.

Not only should we question whether they went to the throne and picked them back up, but now we can safely say they did not, since they are no more mentioned in Scripture after Rev 4, specifically not in Rev 5.

And that casting of thrones is offered to the Lord Himself. That would be like casting into the Lord's offering, and then taking it back.

Rev 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

No doubt the Lord graciously accepted their free will offering, and gladly wore them upon His own Head at His return.

Afterall, whose head would any thankfully forgiven and redeemed saint want to have their crown? The Lord's own Head of course.

The real question here becomes: Why all the great desire to find crowns upon one's own head, and digging around in prophecy of Scripture to prove it? We've seen already that such coveting of crowns results in disdain for measley palms, without so much as a lousy laurel wreath on the head...

That can't be the Jew only, and it can't be the angels, and the saints from the tribulation aren't yet up there before the throne yet

Correct. Nor are there any resurrected bodies of saints in the throneroom, which bodies are not resurrected until the first resurrection to meet the returned Lord in the air.

There are 24 elders of departed saints in the presence of the Lord. Wearing crowns in Rev 4, and without crowns in Rev 5, having been cast as offerings unto the Lord Himself.

Who else could they be?

Exactly what Scripture says: 4 beasts, 24 elders, and multitudes of angels.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

If the 24 elders reperesent a mulitude like themselves, then it is all departed saints now in the presence of the Lord.

 

[Musicmaster]

"He who does not believe in the Son of Man is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

So Jn 3:18, being spoken in present tense, does not apply now?

You may want to pick a better example for comparison because this one is a poor choice. Yahshuah was addressing people with what was absolutely true for them at that time.

Now, why are you dancing around and dodging the clear message of the verse I quoted, which was Revelation 3:3? Why are you not willing to speak directly to the topic at hand in what I quoted? Yahshuah stated that those who do not "watch" will not know the hour of His coming. What does that mean for those who DO "watch"? It's a no-brainer that those who are called up into the air to meet Yahshuah will obviously know in retrospect that the hour had come...again, in retrospect, which is something YOU tried to add to the text. I don't think the Lord is so daft that He would say that we will know of something AFTER the fact. Of course we will! He's the one who gave to us the intelligence we have!

Come on! Let's be reasonable here!

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Who says? What John saw was immediately upon being translated from Patmos into the throneroom of the Lord.

Who says? John didn't say that! It's YOU who is saying that!

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet...

Where do you see in that statement that he was literally translated (whatever that means since that is a term that YOU forced into the text that isn't there)?

MM

 

[Eleanor]

You may want to pick a better example for comparison because this one is a poor choice. Yahshuah was addressing people with what was absolutely true for them at that time.
Now, why are you dancing around and dodging the clear message of the verse I quoted, which was Revelation 3:3? Why are you not willing to speak directly to the topic at hand in what I quoted? Yahshuah stated that those who do not "watch" will not know the hour of His coming. What does that mean for those who DO "watch"? It's a no-brainer that those who are called up into the air to meet Yahshuah will obviously know in retrospect that the hour had come...again, in retrospect, which is something YOU tried to add to the text. I don't think the Lord is so daft that He would say that we will know of something AFTER the fact. Of course we will! He's the one who gave to us the intelligence we have!

Come on! Let's be reasonable here!

MM

Therein is the issue. . .submission of the word of God to human reason.

See Ro 9:14-21 for the Biblical view of such human nonsense.

 

[Musicmaster]

Therein is the issue. . .submission of the word of God to human reason.

See Ro 9:14-21 for the Biblical view of such human nonsense.

Though we are exhorted to rightly divide the word of truth, you didn't do that. In case you don't really know the scriptures, it's also written that the Lord is not opposed to our using the God-given reason that He gave to us:

Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD...

So, we have a choice as to either recognizing the conclusions to what is said, or ignore them because they are not spelled out on a silver platter dropped in our laps.

Oh, and by the way, pretending as though you too don't apply conclusive reasoning to the scriptures in other places, I have grave doubts that you abstain from that any more than all others who study the scriptures and settle upon various pet doctrines.

MM

 

[Eleanor]

Though we are exhorted to rightly divide the word of truth, you didn't do that. In case you don't really know the scriptures, it's also written that the Lord is not opposed to our using the God-given reason that He gave to us:
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD...
So, we have a choice as to either recognizing the conclusions to what is said, or ignore them because they are not spelled out on a silver platter dropped in our laps.
Oh, and by the way, pretending as though you too don't apply conclusive reasoning to the scriptures in other places, I have grave doubts that you abstain from that any more than all others who study the scriptures and settle upon various pet doctrines.

Thy speech doth betray thee.

 

[Musicmaster]

Thy speech doth betray thee.

Whatever...

 

[Ghada]

There are crowns in Rev 4:10.

True. Who these eleders are is not exactly made known by Scripture. And they cast their crowns at the feet of the Lord.

Nothing says they toook them back to wear them again in Rev 5.

 

[Ghada]

This is a non-argument.

Division is a term that denotes division in the sense that we are not all united under Christ, which is not at all what I had stated nor implied.

True. It only applied when you did not clarify what you meant by the church being separate from tribulation saints.

There are now saints in the presence of the Lord, and saints remaining alive on earth. And the body of Christ is not divided, except between the dead and living bodies.

Just as there are distinctions in reward,

The only distinction of rewards made known by Jesus, is cities to rule during Christ's Millennium.

There is only one reward by resurrection of the dead unto life with God and the Lamb: The crown of life, righteousness, and glory.

The only crowns to be seen on possible resurrected saints, is the 24 elders in Rev 4.

But since that is when John first appeared in heaven from Patmos, then it's before the first resurrection of the saints. It's more likely 24 elders of the dead in Christ now in the presence of the Lord.

Those not watching are not watching for various reasons, and they are the ones who will not be made aware of the hour of the Lord's coming, and therefore the coming of the Lord for His Church will be as a thief to those not watching. That clearly is what my quoted text from scripture states.

What you are not stating plainly, is if you believe watchers can know the hour of His coming beforehand.

You also seem to imply He will only be seen by watchers, like having 'eyes to see'. And everyone on earth shall not see Him come in the air with their own eyes.

I'd like you to clarify one way or the other. It's new and interesting stuff to me.

Notice "...the rest..." You left them out,

Because the rest of the dead will not live again unto judgment of works, until after the Lord's Millennium expires, which is a thousand years after the first resurrection of the saints, which is immediately at His return into the air.

And His coming will be with great power and glory seen by all people on earth, as lightning shine from east to west...

 

[Ghada]

The term you chose is not the term I see in scripture.

I Scripturally apply the term of tribulation saints, to all them living godly on earth.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Abel is the first righteous man to suffer tribulation and wrath from the ungodly, being persecuted and martyred for his faithfulness to the Lord.

so there will indeed be many, many people come to Christ in faith in the midst of the wrath of the Lamb...Those people who come to Christ in the tribulation will still be just as saved, but only not delivered from the wrath as will be the Church before it all begins.

This prophecy breaks Scripture, that no saint in Christ Jesus washed in the blood of the Lamb, suffers wrath from Jesus Christ the Lamb of God.

The unrighteous naming His name are not saints in Christ Jesus, and they are appointed to the wrath of hypocrites.

The godly can suffer natural tribulation of all flesh on earth, but not the righteous indignation and wrath of the Lord.

Revelation shows to us that about the same number of people are killed in the first half as are killed in the second half. Granted, the mathematically challenged out there don't seem to realize that, but it is the number that is given in Revelation for all to see.

So long as anyone makes no doctrinal separation between tribulation and wrath coming from unrighteous men, and the tribulation and wrath that only comes from the righteous Lord, then people willl be breaking Scripture to have blood washed saints of the Lamb, suffer from the wrath of the Lamb.

They will also have to ignore the rise of the first beast making war with the saints on earth.

They also show they are the unrepented walking in darkness, who don't know the tribulation of enduring temptations and persecutions.

If you are talking about right now, before the rapture, no. That is not at all true.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

If such tribulation or persecution does not include someone naming His name, then it's because they are only naming His name, and are not the righteous and godly saints in Christ Jesus.

Persecution and tribulation from the wrath of the Lamb are not at all the same thing.

Exactly. There is the present tribulation and wrath from the unrighteous upon the righteous, and there is the tribulation and wrath from the righteous Lamb upon all the unrighteous upon the earth.

The former continues now as at the beginning of the last days, and the latter will be at the end of the last days with the Lamb's return.

To say that we are in the tribulation now is the same error

Anyone naming Christ and saying they are not in any tribulations of temptations, trials, or persecutions, is the same as saying they are not in Christ Jesus: They are not repented righteous saints enduring all tribulations on earth unto the end.

1Sa 26:24
And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

Jhn 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rom 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Once again, anyone denying these promised tribulations upon the godly to endure, are denying they are the godly.

Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

When He comes again, all the ungodly will suffer from the Lord's tribulation with anguish, and not with any godly endurance.

Only the unrepented still walking in darkness, are blind to the tribulations endured by the godly. Except they repent of their deeds and resist the devil and temptations, they will only suffer anguish from the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb.

of Amillennialism.

I don't believe any amils preach tribulation upon saints. All they preach is their own mystical version of reiging over all the earth from heaven.

It is only hypocrites who divide over eschatological differences.

If you mean being divided from the Lord's wheat at His coming, then I agree.

 

[Ghada]

That was and is true up to this point. What you missed is that the Lord will obviously let the watchers know right before His coming.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Only at the moment thereof, and not a moment before. At that moment, the saints will know He is come by being changed from mortal to immortal. All other eyes will see Him with woe.

There is no 'right before' in Scripture. Who long is 'right before'?

That's the same kind of human relativism, as them that try to say committing sin is only being 'committed' to sinning. How much sinning is 'commitment' to sin? How much right is right before...

What you said does not negate what I said. Jesus only said the non-watchers will not (future tense) know the hour of HIs coming.

Jesus negates it, by specifically telling it to His own watchers.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

I never said anyone back then and even now, at this moment, knows the hour of His coming for us.

Ok. Only 'right before'. How much right before time are you prophecying?

Enough time to know He's coming, before He comes, so you can tell someone He's conming?

2Co 5:2
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

There won't be any warning time at all to repent. The unrighteous tares will be found naked, and only the wheat will be found clothed in righteousness.

And the rest will be found believing in Him whom they believed not. No, not so much as naming His name.

Charlatans also ignore the obvious, so that goes both ways.

Actually, the most convincing charlatans know the truth, and purposely miss it by just a little, in order to decieve the ignorant.

Such as knowing His hour right before, just a little.

 

[Ghada]

Yahshuah spoke truly to THOSE people, who did not indeed know the hour of His coming.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Those people were Jesus' servants being told to watch for their Lord. Those people include His servants watching for our Lord today.

Look, if you don't want to know the hour of His coming before He arrives,

No. I don't even want to try to know what the Lord says we cannot, nor will know. I'm not into false prophecy nor mystical arts.

And if anyone wants to know before the hour, so they can repent and make themselves ready, it won't happen.

The command is to repent of sinning now, not wait until tomorrow which may not come, and especially not wait until 'right before' He comes, which no man, not even the Son, will know right before.

Anyone declaring His coming right before His coming, are always wrong before He comes.

Just take it easy.

I do. It's easy to live godly with Jesus, when we've repented of our past sinning for His sake:

Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

As for me, I will continue to watch and to pray for the very Thoughts and Ways of the Lord that are above ours as are the heavens above the earth, for never did the Lord ever command that we not ask for His Thoughts and His Ways.

Unless those thoughts are ways to figure out He is coming, right before He comes.

Anyone prophecying anyone will know right before He comes, are always false prophets before He comes.

The allegorical approach is where so many make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say.

True. Many turn the Bible into just another book of legend and myth, by symbolizing away the truth into a lie.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This is not allegory spoken to the Lord's own disciples, then nor now.

Not me.

True again. I've not seen you allegorizing anything.

Some just teach their own stuff, and ignore or change any Scripture that doesn't agree with it. They don't need allegory.

and I love the Lord for His promise to reveal all Truth to those who simply ask of Him

So, you ask Him to give you a little time to know right before He comes?

By your lack of prophecying the hour, I take it he hasn't told you yet. And so, right before He comes, has not yet come. However long right before is....

Will there be enough time right before, to look up before seeing Him appear? What if you are in a building? Or asleep? Or worse yet in the middle of good sex? Will you urgently pray, "O Lord, not right now!"

Would you wish it were right before that time, instead of during?

, therefore not leaving us all to flounder around in this fallen world,

If this is your view of watching for the Lord, then you have a pretty dim vision of it.

Methinks you're just someone that has to know anything you want to know, and right now not later.

Like the man said in Dirty Harry, "I gots to know!"

If we're watching right before He comes, then we can certainly wait unto He comes to know it. Afterall, how long can right before be?

having to grope around for what we think might be the truth, or falling victim to the beliefs of others.

We already know what is true, that can be plainly known by reading it in the Bible.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
He's speaking to His own servants watching for Him yesterday, today, and tomorrow until the very moment of His hour to come.

And so, those who take His plain words seriously, won't become fools believing other things not written in the Bible. Such as some 'right before' time of imparted knowledge, that the Son says He won't even know, much less impart right before He comes.

Mar 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Here we see that even that day won't be known by anyone on earth nor in heaven, except the Father only.

Do you seek to know right before that day? Wouldn't that be the day before that day? Or, hour before that hour? Will you have at least an hour, if not a whole day, to tell others He's coming tomorrow, or in an hour?

If so, then hopefully you'll take time to let me know on this site. I'd be more than glad to hear it, and start counting down the day or the hour to come...

 

[Ghada]

Who says? John didn't say that! It's YOU who is saying that!

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet...

Where do you see in that statement that he was literally translated (whatever that means since that is a term that YOU forced into the text that isn't there)?

MM

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

He did enter through the door of heaven to see these things. I call it a translation.

The point of course is that He is seeing these things immediately at present at the time of the Lord coming to Him on Patmos.

Therefore, the first resurrection of churches has not yet come with the Lord's return to earth. And so I disagree with the interpretation, that John's entrance into heaven is representaive of the resurrection and rapture of the church at the Lord's return. And so, the 24 elders are not resurrected saints.

I would say they were 24 elders of the departed souls of saints in the presence of the Lord in heaven.

2Co 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Even as the souls of martyred saints around the altar in Rev 6.

 

[Josheb]

Lets say the premill understanding of the millennial age is a biblical one. (I dont believe it is) But let's say for a minute it is.
What would be the consequences of this interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10?

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations (Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15). Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, that is - Jerusalem. This revolt ends when fire comes fddown from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil who deceived them.

But the question remains, Who are these people whom the devil received, who then revolt against God, only to be consumed by fire from heaven?


According to Premills one group of people on earth during the millennial age are the redeemed. No one believes that it is possible for such people who have been raised from the dead in the general resurrection, and who are now glorified, to participate in a revolt like the one depicted in Rev 20.

Therefore those who revolt during the millennium must be individuals who have not been raised from the dead or who have not gone through the judgement when Christ returned to earth when the millennial age began.

Dipsy's believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture and survived the great tribulation and wrath of the antichrist. On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Few talk about this (no one inside Dispensationalism). The logical, necessary conclusion of the premillennial view (both Historic and Dispensational) is that the reign of the Son of God to whom all power and authority has been given fails.

"Oh, but Josh, it isn't an actual failure because it is God's will the rebellion occur."

What? Put down the crack pipe and think about that for three seconds because it's absurdly irrational and completely contradictory and all-powered, all-authority reign. God wants His Son's reign to fail.

 

[Musicmaster]

Revelation 7:9, 13-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There are those who deny the importance of these scriptures, but the bottom line is that regardless of their strange hermeneutics, they cannot get around the fact that those spoken of in the above verses are those who are saved in the tribulation to come, and who only have palm branches in their hands, wearing white robes and are from the GREAT tribulation, which is not something that has been ongoing through the ages since the cross to therefore include us. That strange interpretational model ignores much else of what is stated quite clearly.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Additionally, what's manic are those scholars out there who strangely have a following of their own, fully believing that one manuscript...just one stinking, single manuscript, which renders the 24 elders speaking in second person, just one manuscript, mind you, somehow overshadows, with any degree of credibility over all others, and that was altered as much as five times in places, is magically authoritative over thousands of others! It would almost be easier to believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddie than letting just one manuscript force all others into the shadows of untrustworthiness.

MM

 

[Ghada]

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

It expires. And Jesus with His saints are no longer executing His law and will over the earth.

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations

We can also say by prohecy of Scripture, that Jesus Christ is now sitting on the throne in heaven, watching what many of them on earth do with Satan loosed to once again to tempt and decieve:

Psa 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

(Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15).

Assumptions without any sense don't prove or disprove anyting, but only show someone assuming things that make no sense. It weakens the argument by making irrational arguments.

A thousand years later may have many of the same names of nations, but not the same people living for a thousand years. Nothing in Scripture says anything about the life duration of people on earth. Only the Lord and His resurrected saints are immortal.

And even in the beginnning, the longest life span of man was short of a thousand by 31 years.

Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves,

True. However, so as not to assume anything, Scripture says nothing about any saints being there at the time. It was their camp surrounded, not necessarily the saints. And if there were resurrected saints in the camp, then what do they care for such foolish things of rebellious reprobates?

One would think after Pharoah charging into the dry Red Sea bed, and the slaught of all gathered around Armageddon to make war with the Lamb and His saints, that they would remember and not gather themselves together in one place again, to fight with the Lord and His saints.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

that is - Jerusalem.

This is assumption, that ignores the normal difference between cities and camps. Jersualem no doubt is the beloved city, but the camp is a camp, not a city. Prophecy shows such camps without walls during the Millennium, since no walls are needed from warfare.

Today, the only cities with walls are from olden times that needed them for safety and defence. Some are even restored for tourism. And one such wall is surrounded by idolators still wailing the loss of their idolatrous temple over a thousand years ago...

This revolt ends when fire comes fddown from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil who deceived them.

As with senseless conclusions, arguements are also weakened by sloppy errors.

Satan is not consumed by any fire, until he is cast into the LOF.

But the question remains, Who are these people whom the devil received, who then revolt against God, only to be consumed by fire from heaven?

Rebellious people, who would not rebel while the Lord and His saints were executing His law.

It's called outward obedience to the letter of the law, for the sole purpose of not being executed by the law.

It's nothing new, and will continue under the Lord's millennial government, as witnessed by their outward rebellion at the end of His millennial government.

According to Premills one group of people on earth during the millennial age are the redeemed.

True. The sheep judged good in works are born again, as they enter into the King's heavenly kingdom, as well as His church on earth.

He first came to build His churches on earth, after all the world was judged in unbelief. He comes again to build again His churches on earth, after all the world was once again judged in unbelief, which is by the resurrection of His saints into the air.

No one believes that it is possible for such people who have been raised from the dead in the general resurrection, and who are now glorified, to participate in a revolt like the one depicted in Rev 20.

Like duh. The sky will also be blue and the grass green.

None of the faithful born saints will be part of the rebellion either. It's not even sure they will be in the city and camp surrounded.

believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged

Which is all the people of nations at His return, that were not saints resurrected into the air with Him, and who remain alive after the Lord's wrath and warfare. They shall be judged sheep or goats by their works.

and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

Only the good sheep and their offspring.

All citizens of the King of nations will also be saints newborn into the Lord's church and commonwealth of Israel, as today. And their children shall be raised in the admonition of the Lord, with no devil on earth to tempt otherwise. However, that is no guarrentee the children will believe with pure hearts unto salvation and justification of Christ.

My conclusion is, that if this sloppy and dishonest argumentation is an example of how anti-mils argue, then it argues mostly against being antimil. If the same kind of stuff must go into making the antimil argument, then it shows the mind must allow itself to become ruined and useless for making disciplined and honest arguments.

That kind of mind ruin, is common to the destruction that comes by arguing against the truth of Scripture, whether it be for any doctrine or prophecy made up by a person's own faith and will alone:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The first manner of destruction is in the heart and mind. As the saying goes, The mind is a terrible thing to waste. And worse to destroy from common sense and rational argumentation skill.