A problem with premillennialism

[Musicmaster]

Why all the anger?

Perhaps you should not call people ignorant that are sharing thier faith ? Called smite with the fist of wickedness: thinking its seeking the approval of God .Only God can rebuke a lying spirit

No contradiction, no need to get excited about nothing.

hou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

You were slaughtered(was slain) , and You (have redeemed) purchased [people] for God a spiritual unseen work . Holy Spirit working in dying blood blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.'"

What differnce do you see that you say destroys the gospel ?

Saying that someone is ignorant of something that is verified and verifiable, that is not anger and it is not antisocial. We ALL are ignorant in relation to ALL truth, which, yes, includes myself. So, to answer your question:

If you look at those verses carefully, you will see that the elders in the KJV are speaking in first person, which means that they are including themselves among those who had been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. In the NIV, that translation has them speaking in the second person perspective, and therefore EXCLUDING themselves from being among those who had been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.

The implications of this difference goes to the identity of those elders. When we take the KJV rendition, they are representative of the Church in Heaven in that flow of events and timeline. If we take the NIV rendition, we're left with no clue as to who they are.

When you speak of sharing your faith, that also causes alarm, because our faith should not be in translations and the false idea that they do not have contradictions between them. I have just shown to you one of MANY contradictions, and so shattering a misplaced faith. By the NIV putting so very general and non-specific "people" into the text, they have created a man-made dichotomy, which misleads the readers, and thus gives to the readers a grossly distorted understanding of the identity of those 24 elders.

Now, if you are willing to accept the rebuke for your misspeaking against the obvious contradictions between English translations, then perhaps I have won you over to the side of desiring to seek out the truth in more depth and detail. If not, and you're going to stick to a stiff-necked adherence to what you think you know as being infallible, that would speak of a very common problem among the laity these days who gravitate toward stoic indifference to empirical, objective truth. I say this only because I have now shown to you a clear cut, no argument difference in translations. Downplaying the glaring difference in those two translations is also a weapon I've encountered among the willingly ignorant masses out there, and I hope you do not stand with them.

Oh, and I did not say that the differences "destroy the Gospel." Pleased don't misrepresent what I actually said.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Why all the anger?

Perhaps you should not call people ignorant that are sharing thier faith ? Called smite with the fist of wickedness: thinking its seeking the approval of God .Only God can rebuke a lying spirit

No contradiction, no need to get excited about nothing.

hou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

You were slaughtered(was slain) , and You (have redeemed) purchased [people] for God a spiritual unseen work . Holy Spirit working in dying blood blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.'"

What differnce do you see that you say destroys the gospel ?

As a continuance, the importance for understanding the identity of those 24 elders is in the fact that they are right there in Heaven before the Lamb is handed the seven sealed scroll. That is indeed significant in our understanding for the timing of the rapture. That also goes hand in hand with the fact that, where the Church is mentioned voluminously throughout the first three chapters of Revelation, and not once thereafter in the chapters describing the tribulation events, that too speaks directly to the absence of the Church on this earth during that 70th heptad of the 70 heptads of Jacob's Trouble.

The willfully ignorant out there will claim that John had some sort of brain fart by suddenly referring to the Church as merely the "saints" in the chapters dealing with the tribulation events and time period. Not only does that ignore the obvious, but it plays right into the hands of the post-tribulation mindset, which is utterly bankrupt of credibility, given that the Saints are mentioned right up to the very end of all the horrid events of the tribulation.

So, no, John didn't have an aneurism in his brain while writing the book of Revelation, as some would suggest when trying to defend the idea that the "saints" are the Church still on the earth during any part of the tribulation.

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

Saying that someone is ignorant of something that is verified and verifiable, that is not anger and it is not antisocial. We ALL are ignorant in relation to ALL truth, which, yes, includes myself. So, to answer your question:

someone is ignorant
lack of desire to pursue the truth
without excuse for not seeking the truth in the matter.
Sitting there on your duff, and blindly claiming
that's the fall-back of the ignorant masses who have no desire to pursue the truth in all thing

Sounds like anger....... slow down we have the rest of our lives to learn Christ said if he began the good teaching work in us he will to the last day...

 

[Musicmaster]

someone is ignorant
lack of desire to pursue the truth
without excuse for not seeking the truth in the matter.
Sitting there on your duff, and blindly claiming
that's the fall-back of the ignorant masses who have no desire to pursue the truth in all thing

Sounds like anger....... slow down we have the rest of our lives to learn Christ said if he began the good teaching work in us he will to the last day...

Not at all. Please don't assume anger in my words when you can't see my facial expressions in these posts, and you cannot hear the vocal inflections in my voice. Ignorance is not always a bad thing, so don't assume into my tone what is not there. I spoke more generally most of the time, as is evidenced when I spoke of the masses of laity out there who have in their ranks the lazy and indifferent people who have no desire to seek out the truth.

Now, can we get up out of this rut once and for all, and move on, or is this going to remain an excuse for not conversing reasonably? I mean, you tell me, because I do have better things to do than to argue in circles because of a misplaced judgement of my tone.

Those quotes you included, what they show is that I call a spade a spade when I see one.

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

As a continuance, the importance for understanding the identity of those 24 elders is in the fact that they are right there in Heaven before the Lamb is handed the seven sealed scroll. That is indeed significant in our understanding for the timing of the rapture. That also goes hand in hand with the fact that, where the Church is mentioned voluminously throughout the first three chapters of Revelation, and not once thereafter in the chapters describing the tribulation events, that too speaks directly to the absence of the Church on this earth during that 70th heptad of the 70 heptads of Jacob's Trouble

I would offer In that parable (the signified tongue) using the temporal things seen. . . revealing eternal not seen things of Christ.

The 24 elders/priest represent the priesthood of believer (elder = priest) No difference

24 represented by 12 ( the authority God has spoken) tribes as gates to the city .Therefore all of the born again old testament saints. 12 ( the authority God has spoken) apostles as walls represent new testament or restored testament. . saints at the time of reformation .

The golden measure of faith called hidden manna in Rev 2 (the unseen eternal things of God )

No need to know when the last day .Especially today when Satan the king of lying sign to wonder after.is still active. "Wonder marveling" is not believing exercising faith "Satan's limbo".

Therefore even today giving the illusion that our Holy Father is still adding to prophecy . Believer have prophecy to the end of the matter

Not the literal historical understanding. I would think literalizing that parable can cause confusion and go off in many directions .

The golden measure unknown (thousand years) Just like it is used the first three times

The Amil works the best for myself .

 

[Musicmaster]

I would offer In that parable (the signified tongue) using the temporal things seen. . . revealing eternal not seen things of Christ.

The 24 elders/priest represent the priesthood of believer (elder = priest) No difference

24 represented by 12 ( the authority God has spoken) tribes as gates to the city .Therefore all of the born again old testament saints. 12 ( the authority God has spoken) apostles as walls represent new testament or restored testament. . saints at the time of reformation .

The golden measure of faith called hidden manna in Rev 2 (the unseen eternal things of God )

No need to know when the last day .Especially today when Satan the king of lying sign to wonder after.is still active. "Wonder marveling" is not believing exercising faith "Satan's limbo".

Therefore even today giving the illusion that our Holy Father is still adding to prophecy . Believer have prophecy to the end of the matter

Not the literal historical understanding. I would think literalizing that parable can cause confusion and go off in many directions .

The golden measure unknown (thousand years) Just like it is used the first three times

The Amil works the best for myself .

You're certainly free to inject that meaning into the scriptures, but I remain free of that fetter, because eisegetical injections are so much more prone to error. Suffice it to say that the 24 elders represent the Church at bare minimum, which is the only thing that concerns us today since they are not identified as also representing the OT saints before the cross, but could possibly be true. Don't get me wrong, because the Blood of Christ is indeed sufficient and did also redeem the OT saints whose hearts were set upon Torah in the manner that Yah demanded. The OT saints already have their glorified bodies, with all the Church still awaiting ours.

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

Not at all. Please don't assume anger in my words when you can't see my facial expressions in these posts, and you cannot hear the vocal inflections in my voice. Ignorance is not always a bad thing, so don't assume into my tone what is not there. I spoke more generally most of the time, as is evidenced when I spoke of the masses of laity out there who have in their ranks the lazy and indifferent people who have no desire to seek out the truth

Sorry but I believe I can hear the anger. Words have meaning attached as foundation. We can forgive each other in a hope God has forgiven.

It seems it becoming less and less important for words to have meaning (Tower of Babble) . Like the new phrase today transsexuals'. . non gender, non human . It would seem the word homosexual. has found new way for new kind attention. Be what ever you desire to be. . Just believe the father of lies

As good increase so do those that consume them. What's next?

 

[Musicmaster]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

We can see that the "wrath" is indeed what the people on this earth are experiencing at the very beginning of the tribulation, therefore the proof against the beliefs out there that the "wrath" is only poured out only at the last half or end of the tribulation. With more than half of the entire world's population being killed in the very first half, and people still claiming that the first half is not God's wrath upon ALL who remain on this earth, they are allegorizing scripture to say whatever they want it to say, and therefore believing a lie.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry but I believe I can hear the anger. Words have meaning attached as foundation. We can forgive each other in a hope God has forgiven.

It seems it becoming less and less important for words to have meaning (Tower of Babble) . Like the new phrase today transsexuals'. . non gender, non human . It would seem the word homosexual. has found new way for new kind attention. Be what ever you desire to be. . Just believe the father of lies

As good increase so do those that consume them. What's next?

Well, it's a sorry practice to inject anger into another's words who is simply speaking matter-of-factly. I've already told you that I'm not angry at you or anyone else here, but if you want to force that into my words, then there really isn't much else to say. You are in effect calling me a liar, which is in itself a form of anger if we dare call it for what it is. What I'm reading in your false accusation against me is a measure of uneasiness toward your own beliefs, which is good. I always encourage others to go the scriptures and read it all for themselves, AND seek the Lord in prayerful venture, as is stated in 1 John 2:27, Who is the Source of ALL Truth.

Amen

MM

 

[Mr GLee]

You're certainly free to inject that meaning into the scriptures, but I remain free of that fetter, because eisegetical injections are so much more prone to error. Suffice it to say that the 24 elders represent the Church at bare minimum, which is the only thing that concerns us today since they are not identified as also representing the OT saints before the cross, but could possibly be true. Don't get me wrong, because the Blood of Christ is indeed sufficient and did also redeem the OT saints whose hearts were set upon Torah in the manner that Yah demanded. The OT saints already have their glorified bodies, with all the Church still awaiting ours.

MM

Not a salvation issue. The simplicity of the gospel. "God saves dying man". More of how can we hear the understanding of the gospel. Like fingerprints everyone is different. God does that work as a laborf of his lve ale a work of fath .

TI do not think i injected meaning comes from the scripture parables Its not is it does not say parable than as for silver or gold parables have thier purpose. The teach us to walk by faith the unseen eternal things . I can remember the first time the spirit worked in me and stared reading the bible everything seems like a parable Some believe it was designed that way, God through parables drawing dying mankind to his understanding. . to give them rest

'If it was not for the milk of the word as that which teaches us God is gracious, merciful, long suffering .I think I would of given up again as usual . kept reading, the things that made no sense. I am a slow learner. I think like Peter.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Parables the mysteries of faith. Faith the unseen eternal things of God Two levels of interpretation the temporal historical nd the unseen spiritual


Seems like you have the wrong kind fear of parables as prophecy Mixing the temporal historical with the unseen eternal things of God they must be mixed or no gospel understanding as a rest

Christ did not leave us as orphan without that valuable 20/20 mixing prescription in order to help us understanding his parables i

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Bible, the mystery of eternal invisible God . LOL best mystery book on the market.Best seller Jesus said search it as it for silver or gold (elements of faith)

 

[Mr GLee]

Well, it's a sorry practice to inject anger into another's words who is simply speaking matter-of-factly.

LOL A matter of whose practice brother ?

Words have meaning. .Jesus wept . Do we need literal tear as evidence?

Hearing of faith not seeing. Some tn that upside down. The hearing brings the seeing of the unseen eternal things .

 

[Carbon]

Revelation 7:9, 13-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There are those who deny the importance of these scriptures, but the bottom line is that regardless of their strange hermeneutics, they cannot get around the fact that those spoken of in the above verses are those who are saved in the tribulation to come, and who only have palm branches in their hands, wearing white robes and are from the GREAT tribulation, which is not something that has been ongoing through the ages since the cross to therefore include us. That strange interpretational model ignores much else of what is stated quite clearly.

MM

Another dipsy?

 

[Tambora]

Lets say the premill understanding of the millennial age is a biblical one. (I dont believe it is) But let's say for a minute it is.
What would be the consequences of this interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10?

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations (Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15). Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, that is - Jerusalem.

That's definitely something to ponder.

It would not be unreasonable to consider the time Satan is released from the pit would be the time he pulls no punches, doesn't hold back, inflicts the maximum.
Thus it could very well be seen as the time Daniel 12 spoke of as being a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.
Which would not be pre-mil.

 

[Mr GLee]

That's definitely something to ponder.

It would not be unreasonable to consider the time Satan is released from the pit would be the time he pulls no punches, doesn't hold back, inflicts the maximum.
Thus it could very well be seen as the time Daniel 12 spoke of as being a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.
Which would not be pre-mil.

No signs were given to wonder after . Believers have prophecy till the end under time under the Sun . Satan still free to try and add to prohecy with his lying signs and wonders

The time of the first century reformation had come The promise of Joel came to pass marking the beginning of the last days

Acts 2:15-17King James Version For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day .But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The abomination of desolation . Kings in Israel a pagan foundation No woman prophets as priest holding out the gospel .Men's only shadow worshiping ceremonial club Same as Catholicism, venerate dying mankind above all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ).

A terrible tribulation like never before or ever again for the outward Jew that is hoping thier flesh will count for something . A gospel explosion to the whole world one like never before ever again. men and women Jew and gentile freed to worship together as one body uniting family members

The 2 walls came down forbidding Jewish women from participating in the ceremonial laws .Jewish Men only club. And another high wall 15 foot separated men and woman gentiles from the Jews

The vail was rent there was no Jewish King of kings sitting in the holy Place. Satan fell he could no longer deceive al the nations of the world to believe that God is Jewish man as King of kings

Revelation 20:1-3 King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years (,a unknown no sign was given yto wonder after ) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the (all the) nations no more, till the thousand years (a unknown) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Plans to build the another abomination of desolation (temples made with the dying hands of mankind ) is in the works . Christ the Holy Spirit will come not expected on the last like a thief in the night Just as in the time of Noah . no sign were given to wonder after. He will come
on the last day like the time flood

 

[Josheb]

You know, I've answered this nonsense already...

No, you have not and Post #86 proves it.

There is not a single verse in the entire post explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth physically reigning for a literal 1000 years. Anyone and everyone can type "Cntrl F" and search for the word "earth" and readily see not a single verse quoted explicitly states Jesus is on earth. What that search will reveal is you adding the word "earth" to the scriptures in you eisegetic commentary and, again, not answering the question asked.

Calling this "nonsense" is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to ridicule." Fallacy is what ensues when a poster cannot answer the questions asked. We've already seen ad hominem posted...

by utilizing the same system of hermeneutics that you used...

Never happened. I would NEVER add eisegetic inferences to scripture (and if I ever did so I hope someone would have the courtesy to piint it out so I can correct it - as I am now doing with you).

But, let's look at this:

Zechariah 14:1-3
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

It doesn't say "come down," it says what it says, which is a LATERAL action in person, not a vertical one, and it's not figurative in the Hebrew or the Greek of this verse in the OT. The Septuagint predates the Masoretic texts of your modern English translations by centuries, so please don't try to go there to prove your impossible case.

Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Luke 1:31-32
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Not a single explicit mention of Jesus physically being on earth.

Your whacked out hermeneutic...

Is irrelevant.

I simply asked for any verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth, physically reigning for a literal 1000 years and you've attacked me personally with ad homine, called the inquiry nonsense, and attempted to shift the onus away from the one, single, solitary, very valid and legitimate question asked to a fallacious appeal to ridicule and shifting onus.

Your ignorance of language and your lack of desire to pursue the truth....

And you do it to others, too.

Proverbs 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son [heareth] his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.

MM

Still no scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth physically reigning.


I've asked thrice. After each attempt the response failed to answer the question asked. The conclusion is that 1) there is no verse in the Bible explicitly stating Jesus will physically live on the earth physically reigning, 2) the position is, at best, reached ONLY through an inferential reading of scripture, 3) if and when a subscriber to the "physically on earth," position is asked about this that subscriber cannot and will not answer the question asked, cannot and will not post any such scripture, will not be honest and forthcoming and correctly say, "There is no explicit statement; it is a position reached from a solely inferential reading of scripture," 4) will readily resort to a plethora of fallacious responses in an attempt to avoid the facts of scripture, and 5) will not further the discussion (because the answer, "there is none," should have been immediate and we could then move on to discuss why it is someone would believe a doctrine that can be reached only by reading scripture inferentially). I'm going to list those problems again:

There is no verse in the Bible explicitly stating Jesus will physically live on the earth physically reigning,
The position is, at best, reached ONLY through an inferential reading of scripture,
If and when a subscriber to the "physically on earth," position is asked about this that subscriber cannot and will not answer the question asked, cannot and will not post any such scripture, will not be honest and forthcoming and correctly say, "There is no explicit statement; it is a position reached from a solely inferential reading of scripture,"
The "physically on earth" subscriber will readily resort to a plethora of fallacious responses in an attempt to avoid the facts of scripture,
The "physically on earth" subscriber will not further the discussion (because the answer, "there is none," should have been immediate and we could then move on to discuss why it is someone would believe a doctrine that can be reached only by reading scripture inferentially).

All that was asked was, "Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?"
The correct answer should have been immediate and posted in goodwill: There is none.


So now my question is: Can you see what this position does to you and other subscribers? Can you see having to answer what should be an easily answered question near instantly becomes an occasion of rancor and aggression where you suddenly began attacking your fellow siblings in Christ instead of answering a very easy to answer question with goodwill?

No other eschatology does this sort of thing to its adherents.

Note: no one here dodged a question, tried to change the subject, baselessly questioned and impugned the faculties of others, or resorted to other logical fallacies. You did all of that all on your own.

So.....

For the last time: "Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?"

Can you give and honest, correct, forthcoming answer, "There are no verses explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth"? If so, then please do so. If not, then whatever else is posted will not matter because the question asked has not been answered despite having been asked repeatedly. Just answer the question asked, please.


One of the problems with premillennialism is that nowhere does scripture explicitly state Jesus is physically on earth physically reigning for a literal 1000 years..... but it is very difficult to get a premillennialist (especially someone of the Dispensationalist variety) to see scripture's silence on that exact point. It is, likewise, very difficult to get a premillennialist to see and acknowledge the solely-inferential reading of scripture employed in the silence of scripture. It is impossible to discuss the inferential-only reading if it is not recognized and acknowledged.

Where does scripture explicitly state
Jesus will physically be living on earth
physically ruling the earth?​

There is no such verse, Josh. I arrived at that position via inferences, not something explicitly stated in scripture, and I apologize to you and the others for the unnecessarily unkind content I posted.

 

[Josheb]

If you're going to say that He could do all those things from His Throne in Heaven, that's true,

Yes, that is true. Not only is it true, it is exactly what scripture explicitly states and I, unlike you, can actually post scripture stating that fact.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

The Lord (Jesus) remains seated at the LORD's right hand until the LORD defeats all the Lord's enemies. That is what the verse explicitly states. I did not read the verse inferentially. I did not add anything to the verse, nor subtract anything from it. I did not allegorize or "spiritualize" the verse in any way. Three of the four gospel writers quote Jesus quoting this verse.

but it's not the portrait the text paints for us.

"Portrait"? We're supposed to do some kind of exegesis-by-portrait technique AND do it in direct, overt contradiction to the facts 1) scripture NEVER explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth physically reigning for a liter 1000 years but there is a plethora of scripture explicitly stating he is in heaven?

Big fail.

Not once does Revelation 19 or 20 explicitly state Jesus is physically on the earth. The entire text of Revelation leading up to chapter 21 repeatedly states Jesus is in heaven commanding commands that have their effect in heaven and on earth, but he is NOT physically on earth. Jesus is not explicitly stated to come to earth until chapter 21.

David's throne isn't in Heaven. It's an earthly throne of rule over the nation Israel, in the Millennial kingdom, it will be the throne to rule over the entire world with that rod of iron.

Acts 2 defines David's throne for the Christian. Peter, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost explained to thoce in attendance what had previously been hidden from the Jews; he explained the true meaning of the throne.

Acts 2:29-36 ESV
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

When God swore an oath to set one of David's descendants on his throne God spoke about the resurrection of His Son. The promised thrown is the resurrection from the grave, the promise that we would not see decay in Sheol but be raised to eternal life. That is what the text of scripture actually, explicitly states. There's no warrant, nor is there any need to read anything into the text, add anything to it, subtract anything from it, allegorize it, "spiritualize," it or read the verse in any way other than exactly as written. Peter is quoting Psalm 110. The Lord will remain seated in heaven until the LORD defeats the Lord's enemies.

So, we see another problem with premillennialism is its tendency to Judaize New Testament eschatology, it Judaizes Christian eschatology AND refuses to take literally what is plainly, explicitly stated in God's word both Old and New.

Now, YOU show to me where it says that Yahshuah goes back to Heaven after defeating Israel's enemies...

That is a red herring. Scripture does not say Jesus comes and goes before and after this or that AND there will be no shifting the onus until you have answered the question first asked you.

What scripture does explicitly state is Jesus remains enthroned in heaven at his Father's right hand on his Father's throne, commanding commands that have effect in heaven and on earth until the LORD defeats all the Lord's enemies. No coming and going back and forth.

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations (Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15). Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, that is - Jerusalem. This revolt ends when fire comes fddown from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil who deceived them............

So, one of the problems with premillennialism is the fact Jesus' physical 100-year long reign ends in failure.

Other problems include,

• There's no verse in the Bible explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth, physically reigning for a literal 1000 years.
• The "physically-on-earth" position conflicts with many verses in the Bible reporting Jesus is in heaven during premillennialist claims.
• Because of the contradictions, and the indefensibility of those contradictions, those holding to premillennialism typically behave unchristlike when asked about the contradictions. Others are unjustly attacked, and fallacy ensues in avoidance of questions that can and can and should be answered readily in goodwill. No other eschatology causes that condition with anywhere near the frequency or intensity observable in this thread.
• Premillennialism denies what is plainly stated in scripture.
• Premillennialism neglects or ignores the fact Act 2 defines the throne of David in any atypical way, in a manner much, much different than the Jews wrongly interpreted Tanakh absent the newer revelation.
• Premillennialism is selective with its use of scripture, preferring an emphasis on the Old over than the New when the newer revelation explains many things veiled, hidden, or unstated in the older revelation.
• Premillennialism Judaizes Christian eschatology.
• Premillennialism is an inference-only eschatology. Despite claims of reading scripture literally and exegetically, the fact is premillennialism inherently takes an inferential approach to scripture. It does not start with what is explicitly stated and then exegetically reason from what is first stated to what can be exegetically inferred. It starts with inference and builds more inference on top of the inferentially read inferences. One of the places this is most obvious is in the case of Jesus physically living on the physical earth, physically reigning for a literal 1000 years before letting rebellion re-occur (another obvious place is the building of another temple of stone ).

I'm sure other problems will come up as the thread furthers but nine problems is sufficient for any objective Christian to reject premillennialism.

 

[Josheb]

Ending His Millennial reign on earth according to the prophesied thousand years, is fulfilling prophecy, not failing in His reign.

Ending His life on a cross is fulfilling prophecy, not failing in His life.

Ending His OT is fulfilling prophecy, not failting in His OT.

I am still writing for you to answer the question asked.

Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?


Until there is a verse provided explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on the earth Post 89 is a meaningless dodge NOT built on scripture.

Psa 96:13
Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Isa 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

That LORD that is promised to come and judge and govern all nations upon the earth, shall be the Lord Jesus Christ roaring out of Zion as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Unto His house and mountain shall the nations of the earth flow.

The righteous shall be glad, and the unrighteous and unbelieving shall be ashamed.

A common tool for false doctrine and prophecy, is to isolate one Scripture from another.

2 Cor 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Co 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;

Not a single verse posted explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth physically reigning for a literal 100 years. In fact, there is only one verse that explicitly states Jesus comes to earth, and it has him judging the earth, not ruling it. The exact same abuse of scripture is found in Post 92. Piles of verse never mention the word "earth." So.... as is the case with @Musicmaster, we see premillennialists cannot and will not post one single verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth ruling it for a literal 1000 years. Instead, a bunch of verses are read inferentially to mean something they do not state, many of them never even mentioning the earth or Jesus physically being on the earth, and they do this inferential reading in eisegetic support of the premillennial view of the end times.

I will give you the exact same number of tries I gave Music. Let's try this one more time.


Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?


Either post the verse that answers the specific question asked, or say, "There is no verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth for the 1000-year millennial reign."

 

[Ghada]

Translations, although useful for putting something into the hands of the uneducated masses who happen to be able to read,

Beautiful. Spoken like a truly educated scholar.

Jhn 7:15
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

I have no problem with scholarship, until it is a cloke for corrupting plain words any child can read.

Jhn 15:22
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

I.e. if not dcome and spoken in plain Hebrew, Greek, and English.

which is in decline these days because of the intentional failures of public schools,

Thanks be to really educated scholars that cloke their rejection of simple science, to play ideologues instead.

That goes for the Bible as well as the sciences. They got rid of the Bible first, to make way for the ideological sciences and gospels.

2 Timothy
{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
1 Cor
{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So, you can stick with the inferior English translation of your choice,

Thanks. It serves well enough for faith and obedience to the Scriptures as written.

I learned long ago not to let the excitement of original languages divert from the truth, to come up with something else, that any english-reading child can understand is not the english they can plainly read.

Your cavalier indifference to seeking out all truth,

As I've noted, your scholarly stuff in the end, is only used to avoid truth, that your arguments are proving to reject.

We ought never rise so high into the aer, that we equate rejecting our own stuff with rejecting truth.

Oba 1:4
Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

Amo 5:26
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

1Co 4:6

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

1Co 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

and it makes me glad that I did not sit under your tutelage authority

Thanks for the compliment, I suppose. My only tutelege authority is what I have from Scripture.

Mat 7:29
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

, which is no authority whatsoever

Sorry. No take backs.

given your lack of concern for doing the work it takes to research

See above about your boatloads of research work.

Mar 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Wasn't Judas reputed to be a great scholar? Or, maybe that was just that TV Jesus movie, that made such a splash back in the 70's.

and seek the Lord for His instruction in all things.

Then put your nose back in the Book without all the bells and whistles, and just begin to believe what is written, and then of course repent to obey it.

Paul spent a couple years in Arabia doing so. It's not that all his nor your scholarship is for nought, it just needs to stop being scholar's cloke for refusing to believing plain word for little children in our language.

But of course, it always comes down to the first step of salvation in Christ Jesus: Repentance.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

That includes repentance from dead works, not just vain thoughts:

Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Heb

Heb{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

That includes all our sins and trespasses:
Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Sorry, but some things need to be clarified without exception. There's just so much changling teachings and gospels out there...

Maybe if you also repent of any thoughts and ways at enmity with Jesus Christ, then you too can teach the simple truth in plain words like Paul. I mean, he learned to be a scholar that taught on a level easily understood by all us uneducated masses.

Then perhaps you too by sound Scriptural correction and rebuke, can also enjoy the exacting discipline and exercise of refuting all the higher stuff up there in the aer. Including all that seemingly bottomless deep stuff down low:

Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

Now that for me is the most enjoyable and satisfying exercise of a sound mind, that I have ever found and still know. It's like finding that never-dying little worm bobbing and weaving through the fabric of pseudo-scripture, and grabbing it by it's tail and yanking it out with clear precision. Then watching that whole fair cloke unravel itself to the ground.

Dan 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

It's really is amazing how sometimes, just one little Scripture of truth can cause years worth of doctrine made from the idol of one's own mind and fath alone, to come crashing down back to the earth it rose from.

Rev 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Sorry. I do get wordy. I mean such things just keep rolling on and on from one Scripture of truth to another. But perhaps as a fellow scholar, at least of the classic sort, you might at least enjoy the parallelling allusions, if not agree with them.

Manuscript wars no doubt have their own attraction, since they have nothing to do with obeying the truth of Christ. But so far as intelligence goes, I much prefer this stuff. INcluding how to write it as clear and concisely as possible.

2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

It's even getting to the point where I don't need much editing, other than spell-check and punctuation.

Psa 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:16
I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

 

[Mr GLee]

As a continuance, the importance for understanding the identity of those 24 elders is in the fact that they are right there in Heaven before the Lamb is handed the seven sealed scroll. That is indeed significant in our understanding for the timing of the rapture. That also goes hand in hand with the fact that, where the Church is mentioned voluminously throughout the first three chapters of Revelation, and not once thereafter in the chapters describing the tribulation events, that too speaks directly to the absence of the Church on this earth during that 70th heptad of the 70 heptads of Jacob's Trouble.

No sign was given to wonder after. . . its a evil generation natural unconverted mankind that does seek after a sign .(rather than prohecy)

Believers have prophecy till the end of time. Adding to the living word with signs to wonder after. . . . . Satan the king of lying sign with all power to deceive His way of pretending to add to prophecy with false prophecy

Believers are empowered to walk or understand the hidden things of God by faith the eternal things not after the temporal historical . As you say (Brain fart) ...LOL

 

[Ghada]

. In fact, there is only one verse that explicitly states Jesus comes to earth, and it has him judging the earth, not ruling it.

Psa 96:13
Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

If you mean this prophecy of the resurrected LORD Jesus Christ, then true. But He will also govern upon the earth.

Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Once again, the favorite tool of mishandlers of Scripture, is to isolate certain Scriptures from others, rather than allow all Scriptures together to teach the doctrine and prophecy of Christ.

They wrongly dividing the words of truth from one another. Which is dividing Christ Himself. (And we see here, that it is being done by an unbeliever in the Lord Jesus Christ's Millennium, by dividing Jesus from being the LORD of prophecy coming to fulfill it...)

And unsurprisingly, we find those that willingly do one, also wilfully do the other.

I am still writing for you to answer the question asked.

Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?

If your Christ is not the Lord promised to come upon the earth and govern all nations, then you've got another Christ than Jesus.

Either post the verse that answers the specific question asked, or say, "There is no verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth for the 1000-year millennial reign."

Mat 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

This insistent demand is very familiar.

Does Scripture explicitly state that Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, is the LORD and God of Israel prophecied to come to earth and die on a cross, be buried, and rise again the third day?

The creators of their own Christ, that reject Jesus Christ as both Lord and God, also make a similar demand of God, that He ought to have written plainly, that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

The Lord Jesus Christ does not bow down to the gainsayers. His words are written for them that believe, so that they must rightly divide His doctrine and prophecy from the Scriptures as given. He says things plainly enough, but not like the unbelievers demand. Because He knows full well, that even if He did speak the words they demand, they still wouldn't believe, but only mock Him and accuse Him of being a liar.

Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

And so, since the only Christ prophesied in Scripture, that can possibly also fulfill the prophecy of the LORD God of Israel coming upon the earth to inherit, judge, and govern all nations, is named Jesus, then so be it: It's none other than the risen LORD and GOD of Israel Jesus Christ, that will do so Himself, when He comes again in great power and glory upon all the earth.

Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

I've just got to keep on saying it. It is truly a marvellous delight to see how the true Christ has written His Scripture so sure and simple, so as to confirm His doctrine and prophecy in any given place of Scripture.

Job shall surely see his Redeemer stand upon the earth in the last times, as the true God with all power over earth. (He'll also give that promised land Abraham walked on, to Abraham personally standing upon the earth...)