A different gospel?

[Eleanor]

Huh?

Taking my breath away.

It was part of the infilling for me, of every part of my being. . .filling places that I didn't even know I had, that were new to me.

 

[Arial]

If knowing that at long last I had come upon the absolute truth counts as peace (and it does) then yes. But you are asking a subjective question and expecting an objective answer imo. You are asking me to use feeling, an experience, to measure a reality.

@Dave-Regenerated Let me add to the absolute truth---and it was good news and was a person--Jesus.

 

[Eleanor]

When you were born again did you experience the peace of God that passes understanding?

If knowing that at long last I had come upon the absolute truth counts as peace (and it does) then yes. But you are asking a subjective question and expecting an objective answer imo. You are asking me to use feeling, an experience, to measure a reality.

Let me say that for a prophet (teacher), the divine power accompanying the testimony to the ABSOLUTE TRUTH of the Scriptures is overwhelmingly convincing. For a prophet, it is the power in the rebirth that transforms him, and plants him forever.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you assuming that your own experience is inadequate then? How is a person supposed to know they are saved unless it is an experience in their subjective consciousness to begin with?
I think you are confusing some type of idea of feelings being bad with feelings that aren't bad. The idea is that emotion = bad thing. THe attached idea is that because an experience is subjective that = automatically wrong. I think it is important to separate that wrong idea from the reality of shared experience.
I also did not ask you about a feeling. I asked you if you experienced what the Bible says is "the peace of God that passes understanding", not some intellectual idea that the truth is a purveyor of peace to the mind.
Idea can give comfort to the mind and assure it of things.
I take it from your testimony that you do not have any knowledge or experience of the peace of God that passes understanding. So I won't bother you further. I wanted to point out that your lack of experience of God in reality and in your subjective mind informs me that you are not even born again, so when you discount other people's subjective experiences claiming they don't happen because you believe they cannot be found in the Bible, wherever you got those ideas from, you are just wrong.

See post #463.
There are different experiences of the new birth. It's not a "one size fits all" event.
@Arial

 

[Arial]

See post #463.
There are different experiences of the new birth. It's not a "one size fits all" event.
@Arial

It definitely is not a one size fits all as we are all unique individuals, and God deals with us as such.

What is interesting to me is that prior to the takeover of Finneyism and the alter call (that more often than not contain no previous content on the person and work of Jesus or our need for a Savior), back in the days when communities were centered around the church; when God was the center of households, and families attended church faithfully; when preachers were expounding on the word of God, and children set in the pews with their parents, rather than in the basement with picture books and coloring books; when people from childhood were hearing and learning the word of God, and there were no altar calls; back then people at some point believed and knew they were saved because they believed, not because they had some dynamic experience.

And I think that there probably are more of these experiences today and for a number of reasons. The first being God's mercy on our dumbed down, watered down churches, and the very hardness of our hearts, steeped as it is in all the fast paced flitting about, the very culture itself with its by product of cynicism. And the proliferation of well know preachers and teachers touting experience after experience as though that was how God's love for you is measured. So I don't discount all experiences as @dave-regenerated claims I do. I myself experienced something rather shocking---and I think these things are personal between God and the person, and therefore private,----but I think the should be put in their proper perspective. What is produced in and for the person is the focal point---in my case it is just what I said. For you it was breathtaking joy. In either case, it is assurance. It is the love of God poured out on us like oil, running down over our head and over our garments.

And another reason, because fewer people grow up in church and many come to belief later in life, hearing the good news later, the contrast from one thing to it opposite is in itself an experience. (How someone cannot recognize that as a rebirth, even before they ever hear of such a thing, is beyond me.) They may see it in hindsight having gained the knowledge and say, "Oh that is what that was!"

 

[Eleanor]

It definitely is not a one size fits all as we are all unique individuals, and God deals with us as such.

What is interesting to me is that prior to the takeover of Finneyism and the alter call (that more often than not contain no previous content on the person and work of Jesus or our need for a Savior), back in the days when communities were centered around the church; when God was the center of households, and families attended church faithfully; when preachers were expounding on the word of God, and children set in the pews with their parents, rather than in the basement with picture books and coloring books; when people from childhood were hearing and learning the word of God, and there were no altar calls; back then people at some point believed and knew they were saved because they believed, not because they had some dynamic experience.

And I think that there probably are more of these experiences today and for a number of reasons. The first being God's mercy on our dumbed down, watered down churches, and the very hardness of our hearts, steeped as it is in all the fast paced flitting about, the very culture itself with its by product of cynicism. And the proliferation of well know preachers and teachers touting experience after experience as though that was how God's love for you is measured. So I don't discount all experiences as @dave-regenerated claims I do. I myself experienced something rather shocking---and I think these things are personal between God and the person, and therefore private,----but I think the should be put in their proper perspective. What is produced in and for the person is the focal point---in my case it is just what I said.

For you it was breathtaking joy. In either case, it is assurance. It is the love of God poured out on us like oil, running down over our head and over our garments.

Well, full disclosure: the breath-taking joy was actually a follow-up to the power of it all, giving absolute certainty, more certain than gravity itself, of the absolute truth of the Scriptures (the whole experience originating in the book of Leviticus, no less, and part of a another story).

And another reason, because fewer people grow up in church and many come to belief later in life, hearing the good news later, the contrast from one thing to it opposite is in itself an experience. (How someone cannot recognize that as a rebirth, even before they ever hear of such a thing, is beyond me.) They may see it in hindsight having gained the knowledge and say, "Oh that is what that was!"

 

[Eleanor]

Thanks, guys -- @Arial, @Carbon, @David1701, @ReverendRV.

We got 'er done!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And now for the prosecution:

Are we saying sanctification is passive?

Ro 6:11-19 presents a dying and a living:
a dying to sin and a living to righteousness,
a putting off the old man and a putting on the new,
a ceasing to do evil and learning to do well.

How would we apply the "glove" here?

Any ideas?

 

[Binyawmene]

Thanks, guys -- @Arial, @Carbon, @David1701, @ReverendRV.

We got 'er done!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And now for the prosecution:

Are we saying sanctification is passive?

Ro 6:11-19 presents a dying and a living:
a dying to sin and a living to righteousness,
a putting off the old man and a putting on the new,
a ceasing to do evil and learning to do well.

How would we apply the "glove" here?

Any ideas?

Yes. In post 413.

The NIV uses the word "offer," but paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you". And the "you yield" is plural second person in the present indicative active. Just because the grammar is active voice does not negate God is doing the passive work in us. And it's not a middle active voice by subject is doing himself or herself, rather receiving the action from God, but it's just active voice or the subject state of action.​

 

[Eleanor]

Yes. In post 413.

The NIV uses the word "offer," but paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you". And the "you yield" is plural second person in the present indicative active. Just because the grammar is active voice does not negate God is doing the passive work in us. And it's not a middle active voice by subject is doing himself or herself, rather receiving the action from God, but it's just active voice or the subject state of action.​

Perfect!

Thanks! Issue resolved.

The glove still stands.

 

[Eleanor]

@Arial, @Carbon, @David1701, @ReverendRV

Is all that true, guys, in post #469 (more fully presented in post #413)?

 

[David1701]

@Arial, @Carbon, @David1701, @ReverendRV

Is all that true, guys, in post #469 (more fully presented in post #413)?

It's quite muddled, but there some truth in it.

Rom. 6:7-23 (WEB)
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him;
9 knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him!
10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God.
11 Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 Neither present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be!
16 Don’t you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered.
18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification.
20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here's a translation of verse 13, to bring out a couple of nuances.

Rom. 6:13 Stop presenting your members to sin as tools of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God, as alive from the dead, and your members as tools of righteousness to God.

Regarding the context of the previous conversations: God works in us, to will and do of his good pleasure; but, he also sometimes takes a step back, as it were, so that our flesh reveals what it's like. Everything we (born again Christians) do is either worked in us by the Holy Spirit, or it's from our flesh. God uses his word (e.g. the exhortation to stop presenting out members as tools (or weapons) of unrighteousness) to bring about his purposes (see Is. 55:9-11).

 

[Arial]

@Arial, @Carbon, @David1701, @ReverendRV

Is all that true, guys, in post #469 (more fully presented in post #413)?

I am going to quote #413 so what I am talking about makes sense. And I am not sure of the point that was being made as I got lost----as I did in school---in the passive voice, plural second voice, present indicative active, middle active. So I will give my take on what I think she is saying and she is welcome to correct me if need be.

Romans 6: 13, 16, 19 NIV

13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
The NIV uses the word "offer," but paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you". And the "you yield" is plural second person in the present indicative active. Just because the grammar is active voice does not negate God is doing the passive work in us. And its not a middle active voice by subject is doing himself or herself, rather receiving the action from God, but its just active voice or the subject state of action.

In a straightforward interpretation of the scripture with the word "offer" underlined as she did, Paul is saying that when we offer ourselves to sin, that is, we sin, which is the same position we had with sin, its slave, before we were redeemed. So we ought not do that as it is as though we are still the slaves of sin. Instead, as taken out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into His kingdom, what we ought to do is offer ourselves to God, that is, to obedience.

And I think @Binyawmene is affirming what we have been saying. That just because the voice of "offer" carries the possible context of a synergistic work on our part, that is not what it means. When she says, "rather receiving the action from God" I am a bit unclear as to what she means. If it is in the sense that I describe a particular instance in my life where I had do do something that was very painful to do, and that I could not do on my own, but did anyway, as God putting one foot in front of the other (mine) until I was packed, truck loaded, and on my way down the road, then yes. And I knew it was Him doing that. But at the same time it was my feet moving.

 

[Binyawmene]

And I think @Binyawmene is affirming what we have been saying.

I believe sanctification is monergistic in nature. Sanctification is a supernatural work of God. It's a process in which man and woman are passive just as they are in regeneration. We don't' work FOR our sanctification. If sanctification were synergistic we would literally be contributing a portion of the grace and power into the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Philippians 1:6). This would mean we would (at least partly) sanctify ourselves, while the Holy Spirit does the rest.

That just because the voice of "offer" carries the possible context of a synergistic work on our part, that is not what it means. When she says, "rather receiving the action from God" I am a bit unclear as to what she means. If it is in the sense that I describe a particular instance in my life where I had do do something that was very painful to do, and that I could not do on my own, but did anyway, as God putting one foot in front of the other (mine) until I was packed, truck loaded, and on my way down the road, then yes. And I knew it was Him doing that. But at the same time it was my feet moving.

Our role in sanctification is not synergistic, but only an offer. We want to prepare ourselves for good works. Its like saying, "God, I'm ready, transform me more." (2 Corinthians 3:18 "...which comes from the Lord..."). And hopefully what you are offering, like "purify ourselves" (1 Corinthians 7:1) or "cleanse themselves" (2 Timothy 2:21-22) is acceptable and pleasing to God because he can reject it. We only "offer," or paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you" FROM our sanctification.

The purpose of "paristemi" is God's will performing good works through you.

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer (paristemi) your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Timothy 2:21-22 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter ]will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

I believe sanctification is monergistic in nature. Sanctification is a supernatural work of God. It's a process in which man and woman are passive just as they are in regeneration. We don't' work FOR our sanctification. If sanctification were synergistic we would literally be contributing a portion of the grace and power into the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Philippians 1:6). This would mean we would (at least partly) sanctify ourselves, while the Holy Spirit does the rest.

I understand what you are saying, but in Regeneration & Justification we are passive, once we are made alive in Christ, we are for the first time active. Once we are alive and freed from the bondage of sin, we can walk in the newness of Life, because we are now new creations in Christ. But in this new life we are already redeemed, this new life does not contribute anything to our redemption, for we are already redeemed. We do not boast in what we do or will do, we always boast in the Cross, and nothing else.

Here's the Apostle Paul on the matter.
​

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I am a 5 point Classical Calvinist and believe that it's all of Grace Alone. But God decided to allow us to take part in our sanctifying walk. But always trusting that Christ is my redemption, Justification and Sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). And it is by Christ and his merits Alone that I am saved.​

Our role in sanctification is not synergistic, but only an offer. We want to prepare ourselves for good works. Its like saying, "God, I'm ready, transform me more." (2 Corinthians 3:18 "...which comes from the Lord..."). And hopefully what you are offering, like "purify ourselves" (1 Corinthians 7:1) or "cleanse themselves" (2 Timothy 2:21-22) is acceptable and pleasing to God because he can reject it. We only "offer," or paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you" FROM our sanctification.

The purpose of "paristemi" is God's will performing good works through you.

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer (paristemi) your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

​

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

​

2 Timothy 2:21-22 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter ]will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.​

​

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.​

Here's one of my favorite theologians Michael Horton on the topic.

 

[Arial]

Our role in sanctification is not synergistic, but only an offer. We want to prepare ourselves for good works. Its like saying, "God, I'm ready, transform me more." (2 Corinthians 3:18 "...which comes from the Lord..."). And hopefully what you are offering, like "purify ourselves" (1 Corinthians 7:1) or "cleanse themselves" (2 Timothy 2:21-22) is acceptable and pleasing to God because he can reject it. We only "offer," or paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you" FROM our sanctification.

As in "Submit yourselves to God and the devil will flee from you." I think we are on the same page in this, though there may be differing but not changing nuances in the way we view it. And maybe not. It is a very difficult thing to describe to another.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I understand what you are saying, but in Regeneration & Justification we are passive, once we are made alive in Christ, we are for the first time active. Once we are alive and freed from the bondage of sin, we can walk in the newness of Life, because we are now new creations in Christ. But in this new life we are already redeemed, this new life does not contribute anything to our redemption, for we are already redeemed. We do not boast in what we do or will do, we always boast in the Cross, and nothing else.

Here's the Apostle Paul on the matter.
​

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I am a 5 point Classical Calvinist and believe that it's all of Grace Alone. But God decided to allow us to take part in our sanctifying walk. But always trusting that Christ is my redemption, Justification and Sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). And it is by Christ and his merits Alone that I am saved.​

Here's one of my favorite theologians Michael Horton on the topic.

The fact is that we can choose to sin even though we are saved. This tells me that we don't just lie down and go into suspended animation and contribute nothing towards sanctification, somehow just relying on God's grace to refrain from sin. If we still have the old nature alongside the new (Romans) it stands to reason we have to fight against it because it induces us into sin. In fact, it is a mark of being born again that we fight sin.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The fact is that we can choose to sin even though we are saved. This tells me that we don't just lie down and go into suspended animation and contribute nothing towards sanctification, somehow just relying on God's grace to refrain from sin. If we still have the old nature alongside the new (Romans) it stands to reason we have to fight against it because it induces us into sin. In fact, it is a mark of being born again that we fight sin.

Amen brother! Now that we have been baptized in Christ and redeem in Christ. We can now live to God. This does not contribute anything to our redemption, because Christ is our redemption, justification, sanctification. Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God forbid!​

 

[David1701]

I believe sanctification is monergistic in nature. Sanctification is a supernatural work of God. It's a process in which man and woman are passive just as they are in regeneration. We don't' work FOR our sanctification. If sanctification were synergistic we would literally be contributing a portion of the grace and power into the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Philippians 1:6). This would mean we would (at least partly) sanctify ourselves, while the Holy Spirit does the rest.



Our role in sanctification is not synergistic, but only an offer. We want to prepare ourselves for good works. Its like saying, "God, I'm ready, transform me more." (2 Corinthians 3:18 "...which comes from the Lord..."). And hopefully what you are offering, like "purify ourselves" (1 Corinthians 7:1) or "cleanse themselves" (2 Timothy 2:21-22) is acceptable and pleasing to God because he can reject it. We only "offer," or paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you" FROM our sanctification.

The purpose of "paristemi" is God's will performing good works through you.

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer (paristemi) your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

​

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

​

2 Timothy 2:21-22 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter ]will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.​

​

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.​

Even the presenting (or offering) of ourselves to God as tools of righteousness, is worked in us by the Lord. It is God who works in us the willingness and doing of his good pleasure.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Even the presenting (or offering) of ourselves to God as tools of righteousness, is worked in us by the Lord. It is God who works in us the willingness and doing of his good pleasure.

I think that generally only happens if you stay in the reading of the Word. Otherwise, the spirit has a tendency to be dormant.

 

[David1701]

I think that generally only happens if you stay in the reading of the Word. Otherwise, the spirit has a tendency to be dormant.

I would always encourage reading God's word, for many reasons; however, the Holy Spirit can certainly stir you to action, even if you are being remiss (e.g. he can stir you to start reading the word again!).