A different gospel?

[Dave_Regenerated]

I would always encourage reading God's word, for many reasons; however, the Holy Spirit can certainly stir you to action, even if you are being remiss (e.g. he can stir you to start reading the word again!).

That's true. I actually read scripture mainly through Christian literature rather than the Bible most of the time. I don't even know why. I seem to not want to physically pick up a Bible and read it. Maybe I am scared of God, maybe I don't want to be attacked by spirit entities, which seems to happen when I do actually read the Bible. Don't know. Tried deliverance so called by several different people and it didn't work.

 

[David1701]

That's true. I actually read scripture mainly through Christian literature rather than the Bible most of the time. I don't even know why. I seem to not want to physically pick up a Bible and read it. Maybe I am scared of God, maybe I don't want to be attacked by spirit entities, which seems to happen when I do actually read the Bible. Don't know. Tried deliverance so called by several different people and it didn't work.

Christian literature, whilst some can be helpful, is, at best, watered down, compared with the Bible. If you come under some kind of spiritual attack, when you read the Bible, that's a sign that you are doing something right!

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Eleanor]

I believe sanctification is monergistic in nature. Sanctification is a supernatural work of God. It's a process in which man and woman are passive just as they are in regeneration. We don't' work FOR our sanctification. If sanctification were synergistic we would literally be contributing a portion of the grace and power into the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Philippians 1:6). This would mean we would (at least partly) sanctify ourselves, while the Holy Spirit does the rest.

And which to me makes is synergistic, whereas the glove is totally passive, right?

Our role in sanctification is not synergistic, but only an offer. We want to prepare ourselves for good works. Its like saying, "God, I'm ready, transform me more." (2 Corinthians 3:18 "...which comes from the Lord..."). And hopefully what you are offering, like "purify ourselves" (1 Corinthians 7:1) or "cleanse themselves" (2 Timothy 2:21-22) is acceptable and pleasing to God because he can reject it. We only "offer," or paristemi simply means "present, or stand close beside". It carries the idea of "stand-by, until God does his work in you" FROM our sanctification.
The purpose of "paristemi" is God's will performing good works through you.

So there is a "work" for us to do--prepare ourselves. And God's work depends on our work. That to me makes it synergistic, requiring action of both God and me. God does his work in us FROM our sanctification.
So why would we not call the whole process synergistic, requiring participation on both our part and God's part?

Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer (paristemi) your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Timothy 2:21-22 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter ]will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.​

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Christian literature, whilst some can be helpful, is, at best, watered down, compared with the Bible. If you come under some kind of spiritual attack, when you read the Bible, that's a sign that you are doing something right!

Yes but it's wearying.

 

[Eleanor]

Even the presenting (or offering) of ourselves to God as tools of righteousness, is worked in us by the Lord. It is God who works in us the willingness and doing of his good pleasure.

And there you have it. . .again.

I'm gettin' whiplash.

 

[David1701]

Yes but it's wearying.

2 Tim. 2:3,4 (WEB)
3 You therefore must endure hardship, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
4 No soldier on duty entangles himself in the affairs of life, that he may please him who enrolled him as a soldier.

1 Tim. 6:12 (WEB) Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

We're in a war, soldier, not a pillow fight!

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

2 Tim. 2:3,4 (WEB)
3 You therefore must endure hardship, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
4 No soldier on duty entangles himself in the affairs of life, that he may please him who enrolled him as a soldier.

1 Tim. 6:12 (WEB) Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

We're in a war, soldier, not a pillow fight!

It is a pillow fight though. You don't know my dreams of suffocation in the past involving pillows.

 

[David1701]

It is a pillow fight though. You don't know my dreams of suffocation in the past involving pillows.

I'm sorry to hear that. You don't have sleep apnoea, do you?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I'm sorry to hear that. You don't have sleep apnoea, do you?

Nope. Was 17 at the time.

 

[Eleanor]

[/QUOTE]

Nope. Was 17 at the time.

I think one can have sleep apnea at 17 due to weight.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

N T Wright denies some important doctrines.
Three for now:
He denies Adam as being historical.
He denies a crucial component of justification, namely imputation.”
He denies Jesus endured the Fathers wrath in our place.

I think he teaches a different gospel.

Thoughts from both Arminians Calvinists are appreciated?

I never heard of him, and will almost certainly never bother with anything he wrote. if the above is true, he's just another educated heretic.

 

[Eleanor]

I never heard of him, and will almost certainly never bother with anything he wrote. if the above is true, he's just another educated heretic.

You're where I'm headed.

 

[David1701]

Nope. Was 17 at the time.

You can have sleep apnoea at any age, for a few different reasons; but it's good that you don't have it.

If it's a recurring fear (the pillow suffocation dream), God can deliver you from that.

 

[Binyawmene]

I understand what you are saying, but in Regeneration & Justification we are passive, once we are made alive in Christ, we are for the first time active. Once we are alive and freed from the bondage of sin, we can walk in the newness of Life, because we are now new creations in Christ. But in this new life we are already redeemed, this new life does not contribute anything to our redemption, for we are already redeemed. We do not boast in what we do or will do, we always boast in the Cross, and nothing else.

Here's the Apostle Paul on the matter.
​

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I am a 5 point Classical Calvinist and believe that it's all of Grace Alone. But God decided to allow us to take part in our sanctifying walk. But always trusting that Christ is my redemption, Justification and Sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). And it is by Christ and his merits Alone that I am saved.​

Here's one of my favorite theologians Michael Horton on the topic.

Thanks for sharing the video. But I disagree according to the Scriptures. For instance, the "Union With Christ" precedes before "Regeneration," and "Union With Christ" coincide in the same instance of time in "Regeneration" (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13). The "union" is "perfect and complete" (John 17:23, Colossians 2:10), and John described the "Union With Christ as an abiding presence in the application of the Holy Spirit (John 14:20-23, John 15:4-12, John 17:21-23, 1 John 3:24) and fellowship with the Father and the Son (John 14:23, 1 John 1:3, 1 John 2:22-25, 1 John 5:20), This is proved by Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." In the light of this verse, we can say that it is Christ and not we who walk in newness of life. We know this by our experience.

Sanctification is is monergistic in nature.

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,​

​

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,​

​

​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Thanks for sharing the video. But I disagree according to the Scriptures. For instance, the "Union With Christ" precedes before "Regeneration," and "Union With Christ" coincide in the same instance of time in "Regeneration" (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13). The "union" is "perfect and complete" (John 17:23, Colossians 2:10), and John described the "Union With Christ as an abiding presence in the application of the Holy Spirit (John 14:20-23, John 15:4-12, John 17:21-23, 1 John 3:24) and fellowship with the Father and the Son (John 14:23, 1 John 1:3, 1 John 2:22-25, 1 John 5:20), This is proved by Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." In the light of this verse, we can say that it is Christ and not we who walk in newness of life. We know this by our experience.

Sanctification is is monergistic in nature.

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,​

​

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,​

​

​

Thanks Brother/Sister in the Faith! I am from the camp by Grace Alone & Monergistic Salvation. I also believe that it is the Holy Spirit is conforming us into the image of his Son. I also believe that we are sanctified in Christ. Not only is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, but his sanctification is also imputed us to.
​

John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of hime you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

So, when we are redeemed in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works. The old man is buried with Christ, and we are raised a new man; a new creation being saved from sin, death, condemnation and Satan, because of Christ and his merits. Now we can walk as free men in Christ, obey him as Lord, because he is our Savior. We want to follow him and do what he commands us. Which Love God and our Neighbors. We do this because it is by his Grace and power that we can. I am not taking any credit for God work. But we shouldn't just sit back and say and wait, we do because we want to do, because of Christ; always boasting only in Christ and the Cross.

And I agree with the passages you have provided. I am inspired by your Faith, keep fighting the goos fight!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You can have sleep apnoea at any age, for a few different reasons; but it's good that you don't have it.

If it's a recurring fear (the pillow suffocation dream), God can deliver you from that.

No, it only happened once. Around the same time I had a dream of some kind of tribal guy cutting himself with a knife until his innards spilled out. I later read in a book about Shamanism that can be a common dream.

 

[Binyawmene]

Thanks Brother/Sister in the Faith! I am from the camp by Grace Alone & Monergistic Salvation. I also believe that it is the Holy Spirit is conforming us into the image of his Son. I also believe that we are sanctified in Christ. Not only is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, but his sanctification is also imputed us to.
​

John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of hime you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

So, when we are redeemed in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works. The old man is buried with Christ, and we are raised a new man; a new creation being saved from sin, death, condemnation and Satan, because of Christ and his merits. Now we can walk as free men in Christ, obey him as Lord, because he is our Savior. We want to follow him and do what he commands us. Which Love God and our Neighbors. We do this because it is by his Grace and power that we can. I am not taking any credit for God work. But we shouldn't just sit back and say and wait, we do because we want to do, because of Christ; always boasting only in Christ and the Cross.

And I agree with the passages you have provided. I am inspired by your Faith, keep fighting the goos fight!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

Amen. Your brother in Christ.

The doctrine "Union With Christ" underlines every aspect of the whole salvation (according to 2 Timothy 2:10 “…obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus”) which reveals a detail Scriptural pattern of salvation (and according to 2 Timothy 3:15 “…make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus”). The doctrine itself carries the whole salvation package from "Election” (Ephesians 1:4) all the way up to “Glorification" (Colossians 1:27). This "union" is between Christ and his elect, which was planned in eternity by the divine counsel and foreknowledge through his sovereignty. In which, Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Ephesians 3:11, 1:4, 11) by the provision of Christ through the application of the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being UNITED WITH CHRIST, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is UNITED WITH THE LORD is one with him in spirit.​

The “union” is indicated by the preposition “in” (Paul’s language usage, like: “in Christ,” “in Him,” “with Christ,” and “through Christ” etc.) which carries a wide range of implications in a Soteriological sense. The phrase "in Christ" is also used in the sense that you are a CHRISTIAN (Romans 16:7, Ephesians 1:13). Paul also uses another type of language like "created in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:10), even our identification is symbolically represented in water baptism, and uses a certain phrase "baptized into Christ" (Galatians 3:27) in reference to our Union With Christ, like "Crucified With Christ," "Buried With Christ," "Raised With Christ," and "Alive With Christ" (Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:11-13). And we are encouraged to "set your hearts on things above" (Colossians 3:1-3) and "Seated With Him" (Ephesians 2:6).

The "Union With Christ" in the Soteriological pattern would go something like this:
⦁ Election (Ephesians 1:3-4)
⦁ Regeneration (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)
⦁ Faith (Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:16-17)
⦁ Justification (2 Corinthians 5:21, Philippians 3:8-9)
⦁ Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30)
⦁ Adoption (Galatians 3:26)
⦁ Eternal Security (Romans 8:38-39)
⦁ Glorification (Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

 

[Eleanor]

And there you have it. . .again.

I'm gettin' whiplash.

I'm back. . .so why all the exhortations in the NT to do?

 

[Eleanor]

Amen. Your brother in Christ.

The doctrine "Union With Christ" underlines every aspect of the whole salvation (according to 2 Timothy 2:10 “…obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus”) which reveals a detail Scriptural pattern of salvation (and according to 2 Timothy 3:15 “…make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus”). The doctrine itself carries the whole salvation package from "Election” (Ephesians 1:4) all the way up to “Glorification" (Colossians 1:27). This "union" is between Christ and his elect, which was planned in eternity by the divine counsel and foreknowledge through his sovereignty. In which, Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Ephesians 3:11, 1:4, 11) by the provision of Christ through the application of the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being UNITED WITH CHRIST, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is UNITED WITH THE LORD is one with him in spirit.​

The “union” is indicated by the preposition “in” (Paul’s language usage, like: “in Christ,” “in Him,” “with Christ,” and “through Christ” etc.) which carries a wide range of implications in a Soteriological sense. The phrase "in Christ" is also used in the sense that you are a CHRISTIAN (Romans 16:7, Ephesians 1:13). Paul also uses another type of language like "created in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:10), even our identification is symbolically represented in water baptism, and uses a certain phrase "baptized into Christ" (Galatians 3:27) in reference to our Union With Christ, like "Crucified With Christ," "Buried With Christ," "Raised With Christ," and "Alive With Christ" (Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:11-13). And we are encouraged to "set your hearts on things above" (Colossians 3:1-3) and "Seated With Him" (Ephesians 2:6).

The "Union With Christ" in the Soteriological pattern would go something like this:
⦁ Election (Ephesians 1:3-4)
⦁ Regeneration (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)
⦁ Faith (Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:16-17)
⦁ Justification (2 Corinthians 5:21, Philippians 3:8-9)
⦁ Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30)
⦁ Adoption (Galatians 3:26)
⦁ Eternal Security (Romans 8:38-39)
⦁ Glorification (Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Nice list! However, regarding Sanctification and 1 Co 1:30:

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11) through faith, as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith (Ge 15:6).
Imputation is not actual, but you do "own" it, you can take it to the "bank" and it counts for currency. The same as Adam's sin and guilt. We "own" it and are liable for its consequences; i.e., eternal death (Ro 5:18).

Both Adams' guilt and Christ's righteousness being imputed rather than actual, Christ is our righteousness (1 Co 1:30) in that his death on the cross removed our guilt and unrighteousness, resulting in our imputed righteousness, as well as our holiness; i.e., set apart (from sin and to God) by being declared holy (set apart) through faith in Christ's atoning death on the cross and being made holy (separation from sin) by the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christians (sanctification).

It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us at justification, which is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court--not guilty, time served, free to go.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an imparted righteousness which is by sanctification through obedience by the Holy Spirit, which leads to (actual) righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).