A different gospel?

[Binyawmene]

Nice list! However, regarding Sanctification and 1 Co 1:30:

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11) through faith, as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith (Ge 15:6).
Imputation is not actual, but you do "own" it, you can take it to the "bank" and it counts for currency. The same as Adam's sin and guilt. We "own" it and are liable for its consequences; i.e., eternal death (Ro 5:18).

Both Adams' guilt and Christ's righteousness being imputed rather than actual, Christ is our righteousness (1 Co 1:30) in that his death on the cross removed our guilt and unrighteousness, resulting in our imputed righteousness, as well as our holiness; i.e., set apart (from sin and to God) by being declared holy (set apart) through faith in Christ's atoning death on the cross and being made holy (separation from sin) by the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christians (sanctification).

It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us at justification, which is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court--not guilty, time served, free to go.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an imparted righteousness which is by sanctification through obedience by the Holy Spirit, which leads to (actual) righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

I don't have work over the weekends. I have more time if you want to discuss this issue out.

Scripturally, I see three stages in sanctification --

a. Initial Stage (or positionally holy).​

b. Progressive Stage (continuously increasing in holiness).​

c. Final Stage (completion, at the coming of Christ).​

I believe all three stages as being monergistic in nature. I would assume you believe in letter (b. Progressive Stage) as synergistic, and letters (a. Initial Stage and c. Final Stage) is monergistic. But you should make those distinctions, or someone think you believe the all the stages are synergistic in nature. While in sanctification, from the letter (a. Initial Stage) mention above, I can see why someone might get confused by "righteousness" and "holiness" because both are imputed. Righteousness has to do with being declared and holiness has to do with positional. But they are two entirely distinctive doctrines, righteousness can lead into holiness, but they do not overlap or emerge into each other.

 

[Eleanor]

I don't have work over the weekends. I have more time if you want to discuss this issue out.
Scripturally, I see three stages in sanctification --

a. Initial Stage (or positionally holy).​

b. Progressive Stage (continuously increasing in holiness).​

c. Final Stage (completion, at the coming of Christ).​

I believe all three stages as being monergistic in nature. I would assume you believe in letter (b. Progressive Stage) as synergistic,

Well, if you recall you guys have shown me that it is monergistic like the glove on the hand.
My question now regarding the glove is why all the exhortations in the NT to do, when gloves don't do?

and letters (a. Initial Stage and c. Final Stage) is monergistic. But you should make those distinctions, or someone think you believe the all the stages are synergistic in nature. While in sanctification, from the letter (a. Initial Stage) mention above, I can see why someone might get confused by "righteousness" and "holiness" because both are imputed. Righteousness has to do with being declared and holiness has to do with positional. But they are two entirely distinctive doctrines, righteousness can lead into holiness, but they do not overlap or emerge into each other.

I see holiness, same word as sanctification (i.e., actual righteousness), as not just positional, but actual; i.e., an existential setting apart from sin and to God (the meaning of the word "holy/sanctify"),
and righteousness (justification) as imputed (Ro 4:1-11).

 

[Binyawmene]

Well, if you recall you guys have shown me that it is monergistic like the glove on the hand.
My question now regarding the glove is why all the exhortations in the NT to do, when gloves don't do?

I am not sure that I understand your question. But I will take a guess at the interpretation of the "hand in the glove." The hand is the Holy Spirit and the glove is you. Like when you are "in" the Holy Spirit or the glove is "in" the hand. The hand has the power to be active, moving and doing all the leading while the glove is totally passive. Do you take the Holy Spirit for a walk or do you lead the Holy Spirit? I suppose only thing different is that the Holy Spirit can be grieve, and never forces and only promote you to be led by him.

Galatians 3:2 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?​

Is the progressive holiness being perfected by the flesh or by the Holy Spirit? Sanctification started from the Holy Spirit and now you feel you can "cleanse yourself"? I encourage you to do it. Keep in mind that you are not contributing a portion into sanctification. And it won't last very long. Before you know it, you will be sinning again. Just keeping it real. But you can do it through the Holy Spirit. Technically it wouldn't be anything you've accomplished, but rather it's to the glory of God alone. After all, you are not God, and you have no sanctifying power.

I see holiness, same word as sanctification (i.e., actual righteousness), as not just positional, but actual; i.e., an existential setting apart from sin and to God (the meaning of the word "holy/sanctify"),
and righteousness (justification) as imputed (Ro 4:1-11).

When you say, "actual" are you saying "practical"? Because the Initial Stage is both positional and practical.
For example:

Positional (anyone who is sanctified is called to be holy, call is positional or called in that position)

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:​

Practical (is the state of the new nature, old has gone and newness of life, a moral change)

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:​

 

[Eleanor]

I am not sure that I understand your question. But I will take a guess at the interpretation of the "hand in the glove." The hand is the Holy Spirit and the glove is you. Like when you are "in" the Holy Spirit or the glove is "in" the hand. The hand has the power to be active, moving and doing all the leading while the glove is totally passive. Do you take the Holy Spirit for a walk or do you lead the Holy Spirit? I suppose only thing different is that the Holy Spirit can be grieve, and never forces and only promote you to be led by him.

Galatians 3:2 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?​

Is the progressive holiness being perfected by the flesh or by the Holy Spirit? Sanctification started from the Holy Spirit and now you feel you can "cleanse yourself"?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I encourage you to do it. Keep in mind that you are not contributing a portion into sanctification. And it won't last very long. Before you know it, you will be sinning again. Just keeping it real. But you can do it through the Holy Spirit. Technically it wouldn't be anything you've accomplished, but rather it's to the glory of God alone. After all, you are not God, and you have no sanctifying power.

Thanks, but you're dodging my question, and I know it is not your intent to disparage, for you are too nice a person, but is it not being asserted that I am suggesting sanctification by the flesh?
There are NT exhortations galore regarding "doing." It's a fair question that I would like to resolve.
And I know you know all that.
My fall-back position would be that God works through means, and the exhortations point us to the means.
What do you think about that?

When you say, "actual" are you saying "practical"? Because the Initial Stage is both positional and practical.

If absence of unrighteousness, is the "first stage," then I agree with you.
But righteousness is either imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11) or imparted to us in sanctification which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

For example:

Positional (anyone who is sanctified is called to be holy call is positional or called in that position)

Sanctify and holy are the same word, with the same meaning; i.e., set apart (from sin and to God).

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:​

Practical (is the state of the new nature, old has gone and newness of life, a moral change)

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:​

 

[David1701]

I'm back. . .so why all the exhortations in the NT to do?

Exhortations are to tell us what we ought to do. Once we know that, we should seek God to work in us the willingness and doing of it.

Another facet of this is that God's word always accomplishes what he sends it out to achieve; so, when we read the exhortations, God brings his purposes to pass through them.

 

[Eleanor]

Exhortations are to tell us what we ought to do. Once we know that, we should seek God to work in us the willingness and doing of it.

Another facet of this is that God's word always accomplishes what he sends it out to achieve; so, when we read the exhortations, God brings his purposes to pass through them.

And thanks again!

That was where I was going to land, the exhortations are means.

You're a nice guy to have around,

 

[Binyawmene]

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Thanks, but you're dodging my question, and I know it is not your intent to disparage, for you are too nice a person, but is it not being asserted that I am suggesting sanctification by the flesh?
There are NT exhortations galore regarding "doing." It's a fair question that I would like to resolve.
And I know you know all that.
My fall-back position would be that God works through means, and the exhortations point us to the means.
What do you think about that?

My only advice I can give you is testing any form of exhortations.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,​

If an exhortation led you to conformity, then it was predestined.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.​

And it comes from the Holy Spirit and not from yourself.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

If absence of unrighteousness, is the "first stage," then I agree with you.
But righteousness is either imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11) or imparted to us in sanctification which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

No. Righteousness is from justification. The word justified [right-standing] is a DECLARED RIGHTEOUS, which is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners, like a judge who pardon a criminal and reinstate him as “right” or “just” in the eyes of the law again. In the same sense, God accepted us as “justified” by being vindicated us in a declarative ‘righteous-standing’ in his eyes.

Both righteousness and holiness accompany each other in the self-same imputation. They are not each other. Example, a two-side coin is one coin that has both heads and tails. But heads is not tails and tails is not heads.

1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.​

Sanctify and holy are the same word, with the same meaning; i.e., set apart (from sin and to God).

Amen.

 

[Arial]

And thanks again!

That was where I was going to land, the exhortations are means.

You're a nice guy to have around,

Isn't he though. And he is from my ancient ancestral home! Good old Scotland. "You may take my life, but you will never take my freedom!"

I think @David1701 said it very well. I see it as the Christian is given imperatives in the scriptures as to how a child of God ought to present themselves and conduct their lives. (as opposed to laws.) So we as children have a duty or responsibility to obey our Father. His word teaches us, the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit stirs our desires in that direction because of the love of God that has been poured into us and through which we love Him, and we follow our desires. And when we do not He convicts us and corrects us, through His word or us remembering His word.

 

[Binyawmene]

If absence of unrighteousness, is the "first stage," then I agree with you.
But righteousness is either imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11) or imparted to us in sanctification which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

I was doing some google search about this "imparted righteousness" and realized it's a Wesleyan concept.

Imparted righteousness is a term used mostly in Wesleyan and Methodist circles to explain sanctification. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. Impartation is seen as separate from imputation, although the two work in conjunction. According to Wesley’s theology, we are justified when Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us; after that, we begin to be sanctified when God’s righteousness is imparted to us through the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, empowering us to live in a holy manner. According to some in the Wesleyan tradition, this imparted righteousness can lead to sinless perfection.​

Do you believe in "sinless perfection"?

 

[Eleanor]

My only advice I can give you is testing any form of exhortations.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,​

If an exhortation led you to conformity, then it was predestined.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.​

And it comes from the Holy Spirit and not from yourself.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

Good advice. Thanks.

No. Righteousness is from justification. The word justified [right-standing] is a DECLARED RIGHTEOUS, which is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners, like a judge who pardon a criminal and reinstate him as “right” or “just” in the eyes of the law again. In the same sense, God accepted us as “justified” by being vindicated us in a declarative ‘righteous-standing’ in his eyes.

Which would be a forensic righteousness, right?

Righteousness is:
1) forensic (justification, Ro 4:2-3) - in good legal standing with the Court,
2) imputed - accounted/credited to one's person,
3) actual - (holiness) by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

Both righteousness and holiness accompany each other in the self-same imputation. They are not each other. Example, a two-side coin is one coin that has both heads and tails. But heads is not tails and tails is not heads.

It seems to me holiness (actual) is presented as a process through obedience (Ro 6: 16, 19, 22).
Could you parse out for me the above three as you understand them.

1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.​

We are foolishness, ignorant and blind in spiritual matters, and he is made wisdom for us.
We are guilty and offenders of justice, and he is made righteousness for us, our great atoning sacrifice.
We are depraved (Ro 8:7-8) and corrupt, and he is made the source of our spiritual life, it being communicated from him to the body of Christ in sanctification of holiness.
We are in bonds to condemnation (Ro 5:18) and wrath (Ro 5:9), and he is made redemption for us, our Redeemer, Savior and deliverer.

He is not identification with us, but remedy for us.

 

[Eleanor]

Isn't he though. And he is from my ancient ancestral home! Good old Scotland. "You may take my life, but you will never take my freedom!"

I think @David1701 said it very well. I see it as the Christian is given imperatives in the scriptures as to how a child of God ought to present themselves and conduct their lives. (as opposed to laws.) So we as children have a duty or responsibility to obey our Father. His word teaches us, the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit stirs our desires in that direction because of the love of God that has been poured into us and through which we love Him, and we follow our desires. And when we do not He convicts us and corrects us, through His word or us remembering His word.

So you're Scottish.
I would be French (Jewish), Irish, English, with the Irish being the most visible.
(Sounds like an identity crisis.)

 

[Eleanor]

I was doing some google search about this "imparted righteousness" and realized it's a Wesleyan concept.

Imparted righteousness is a term used mostly in Wesleyan and Methodist circles to explain sanctification. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. Impartation is seen as separate from imputation, although the two work in conjunction. According to Wesley’s theology, we are justified when Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us; after that, we begin to be sanctified when God’s righteousness is imparted to us through the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, empowering us to live in a holy manner. According to some in the Wesleyan tradition, this imparted righteousness can lead to sinless perfection.​

Do you believe in "sinless perfection"?

Indeed I do not, nor am I Weslayan.

But I do like the sound (logic) of his theology on this point.
What do you think?

 

[Arial]

So you're Scottish.
I would be French (Jewish), Irish, English, with the Irish being the most visible.
(Sounds like an identity crisis.)

I have a few other things in me as well but the Scottish is the biggest chunk and I think the hottest blood in my heart and veins. I am actually related to very, very, very, distantly, Robert the Bruce. And probably through the uncle or cousin line though I have not been able to go back that far. I have traced the Bruce's to the early 1600's in the grandfather line, and one of his sons was the first record I have of emigration to the US.

 

[Binyawmene]

Righteousness is:
1) forensic (justification, Ro 4:2-3) - in good legal standing with the Court,

The word justified [right-standing] is a DECLARED RIGHTEOUS, which is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners, like a judge who pardon a criminal and reinstate him as “right” or “just” in the eyes of the law again. In the same sense, God accepted us as “justified” by being vindicated us in a declarative ‘righteous-standing’ in his eyes.

2) imputed - accounted/credited to one's person,

In the book of Romans chapter 4 teaches “Imputed Righteousness” the word imputed in Greek is λογίζομαι and transliteration as logizomai, which means “to pass to one’s account, to transferred” (CREDITED, or counted Romans 4:3, 5, reckoned Romans 4:4, 10, and imputed Romans 4:6, 8, 11, 22, 23, 24) which is mentioned 10 times. The righteousness of God/Christ is transferred to us by faith.

3) actual - (holiness) by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

This is what I place into question. So, number 3 is the talking point of discussion.

Scripturally, I see three stages in sanctification --

a. Initial Stage (or positionally holy).
b. Progressive Stage (continuously increasing in holiness).
c. Final Stage (completion, at the coming of Christ).

Number 3 does not fit with letter a. Initial Stage (or positionally holy).

It seems to me holiness (actual) is presented as a process through obedience (Ro 6: 16, 19, 22).

I would say that it fits the context of letter b. Progressive Stage (continuously increasing in holiness).

Could you parse out for me the above three as you understand them.

I did.

 

[Binyawmene]

Indeed I do not, nor am I Weslayan.

But I do like the sound (logic) of his theology on this point.
What do you think?

It does sound interesting. But it's placed into question from my standpoint.

That in the "initial act of sanctification" (1 Corinthians 1:30 -- impartation of holiness), or by the synchronous interrelated in the temporal or chronicle sense, that imparted holiness occurs simultaneously with regeneration (Titus 3:5 "the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," Romans 15:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "the sanctifying work of the Spirit," 1 Peter 1:2) which the logical conjunction is consistent and demonstrates my point that we are clearly passive in that particular sense.

 

[Arial]

a. Initial Stage (or positionally holy).

@Eleanor Biny let me know if I am stating it as you mean here.

The initial stage is sanctified----in the sense that we are set apart to God as holy. We are holy vessels unto Him. The moment we are placed in Christ through faith. We belong to Christ, therefore are holy. Though I have to say that having been predestined to salvation there is a sense that we were always holy to God. In salvation then it is the position (yes) in God in which He begins through the Holy Spirit to conform us more and more to the image of Christ, which is God's image in which we were created. Sanctification.

Then comes truly sanctified made truly righteous at the restoration of all things. Our fallen nature is gone then and all the wicked and all wickedness including the evil one are gone.

 

[Binyawmene]

@Eleanor Biny let me know if I am stating it as you mean here.

The initial stage is sanctified----in the sense that we are set apart to God as holy. We are holy vessels unto Him. The moment we are placed in Christ through faith. We belong to Christ, therefore are holy. Though I have to say that having been predestined to salvation there is a sense that we were always holy to God. In salvation then it is the position (yes) in God in which He begins through the Holy Spirit to conform us more and more to the image of Christ, which is God's image in which we were created. Sanctification.

Then comes truly sanctified made truly righteous at the restoration of all things. Our fallen nature is gone then and all the wicked and all wickedness including the evil one are gone.

Wayne Grudem, "Systematic Theology" An Introduction To Biblical Doctrine
Chapter 38, p 747

1. Sanctification Has a Definite Beginning at Regeneration. A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration, for Paul talks about the "washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). Once we have been born again, we cannot continue to sin as a habit or a pattern of life (1 John 3:9), because the power of new spiritual life within us keeps us from yielding to a life of sin.​

And if you go to page 753, its talks about sanctification being synergistic.

 

[Eleanor]

It does sound interesting. But it's placed into question from my standpoint.

That in the "initial act of sanctification" (1 Corinthians 1:30 -- impartation of holiness), or by the synchronous interrelated in the temporal or chronicle sense, that imparted holiness occurs simultaneously with regeneration (Titus 3:5 "the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," Romans 15:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "the sanctifying work of the Spirit," 1 Peter 1:2) which the logical conjunction is consistent and demonstrates my point that we are clearly passive in that particular sense.

Well, Arial is praying for me here, so I'm sure I'll end up in the right place.

 

[Eleanor]

Wayne Grudem, "Systematic Theology" An Introduction To Biblical Doctrine
Chapter 38, p 747

Let me just ramble with this:

1. Sanctification Has a Definite Beginning at Regeneration. A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration,​

The remission of our sin in itself, which sin is unrighteousness, would be a moral change, as well as the change of our disposition from enemy of God to son of God.
No actual sanctification implied.

for Paul talks about the "washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

Washing = cleansing of unrighteousness by the remission of our sin in its atonement.
Renewal = re-impartation of God's divine eternal life within our immortal human spirit (which Adam lost in the rebellion).
No actual sanctification implied.

Once we have been born again, we cannot continue to sin as a habit or a pattern of life (1 John 3:9), because the power of new spiritual life within us keeps us from yielding to a life of sin.

So, none of the phrases above indicate an actual sanctification at regeneration.

And if you go to page 753, its talks about sanctification being synergistic.

 

[Arial]

Well, Arial is praying for me here, so I'm sure I'll end up in the right place.

Pretty sure you already are.