“In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”

[RR144]

With this statement, a candidate is baptized and welcomed as a new member of the body of Christ. The phrase taken from Matthew 28:19 followed Jesus' command to baptize all nations. But is this phrase really the saying of Jesus? Or was the scripture altered during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity?

Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, “father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed. Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a “solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord”

Because this scripture is important to the trinitarian belief, there has been little interest in pursuing its authenticity. Yet some scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries believe the scripture was altered. James Martineau, in Seat of Authority, says that the “very account which tells us that at last, after his resurrection, he commissioned his apostles to go and baptize all nations, betrays itself by speaking in the Trinitarian language of the next century and compels us to see in it the ecclesiastical editor.”

In History of Dogma, Adolph Harnack claims Matthew 28:19 is “no word of the Lord” Even the cautious critic Canon Armitage Robinson, in Encyclopedia Biblica, says that Matthew “does not here report the (very words) of Jesus, but transfers to him the familiar language of the church of the Evangelist's own time and locality.”

There are early church writers who also seem to support these views. Eusebius, a fourth century writer, had the greatest library of any early church scribe. It contained manuscripts of the new testament that were at least 200 years older than any existing today. Manuscripts copied by Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others not available today gave him access to almost original material. Eusebius cites Matthew 28:19 eighteen times in his work, always in the same form: “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”

When he comments on the verse, Eusebius places great stress on the phrase, “in my name.” Apparently his sources, Origen, Clement and Justin Martyr, excluded “father” and “holy spirit” from this scripture.

Justin Martyr wrote between 130 A.D. and 140 A.D. While much of his work is no longer available, there is a passage that is generally thought to be a reference to Matthew 28:19:

“God hath not yet inflicted nor inflicts the judgment, as knowing of some that still even today ARE BEING MADE DISCIPLES IN THE NAME OF HIS CHRIST, and are abandoning the path of error, who also do receive gifts each as they be worthy, being illumined by the name of this Christ.”

Aphraates, a Syriac writer of the middle-fourth century, cites the text in yet a different manner, “Make disciples of all nations, and they shall believe in me.”

It probably was not until the middle of the third century that the current rendering of Matthew 28:19 appeared when Bishop Cyprian of Rome insisted on the triple formula for baptism. Ironically, Pope Stephen used only one name, Jesus.

During the fourth century, the orthodox church used the phrase, “in the name of the father, son and holy ghost” as a battle cry against the Macedonians who claimed that no new testament text supported the spirit as part of the trinity. However, by the seventh century the church had wholeheartedly accepted the current rendering of the scripture, and excommunicated the Celtic church for insisting on one name in baptism.

In 1902, the modern scholar F.C. Conybeare summed up the history of the development of Matthew 28:19 as follows: “It is worth considering, however, whether the original text of the gospel did not end at the word 'nations,' and whether the three rival endings of the text were not developed independently, viz: (i) 'in my name' in Justin, Eusebius, and perhaps Stephen of Rome and the Pneumato-machi (ii) (iii) 'and they shall believe in me, in Aphraates, representing the older Syriac version 'baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Ghost; or similar in the Greek gnostic Theodotus, Ter-tullian Latin version of Irenaeus, and the surviving Greek MSS.”

There are four instances of baptism by the Apostles recorded in the book of Acts. In each instance, only the name of Jesus is used in connection with the baptism.

Acts 2:38. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost was followed by a call to those who would become followers of Jesus: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)

Acts 8:16. Philip preached throughout Samaria and gained several converts. However, when Peter and John arrived, those converts had not received the gifts of the spirit that normally accompanied conversion in those days. They then laid their hands upon them, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

Acts 10:48. Cornelius, the first Gentile convert, was baptized after a lengthy conversation with Peter: “So he ordered that they be baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.” (NIV)

Acts 19:5. Paul's initial encounter with the brethren at Ephesus caused him concern as they had been baptized by Apollos with John's baptism. He instructed them regarding Jesus: “On hearing this, they were baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

It is only recently that the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 has come into doubt. As Bible students, we should always examine the translations carefully to assure that we are following the original texts as closely as possible. When dealing with subjects like the trinity, this has especially been true. Although Matthew 28:19 has not yet been agreed upon by a majority of scholars as spurious, there is certainly enough evidence to limit its use. At least it would be wise to consider it inappropriate for use in baptism, given its questionable history and subtle support of the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[Mr GLee]

Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, “father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed. Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a “solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord”

I would think we need to go to the foundation of water baptism (not for welcoming a new believers)no what some call sign gifts we understand or walk by faith the unseen eternal things of Christ the head

Limited to Levites. It was a voluntary requirement as a ceremonial law. H20 a shadow of the Holy Spirit .All forms of living moving H20 to represent the doctrines of Christ that fall and create green living things .The same water of the word doctrines of Christ earthly husbands are to wash thier wives with.

Beautiful gospel parable. .

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

A sign to all the nations of the world Not a sign unto those who demonstrated the unseen eternal things of God .

Aaron's two Sons first day were washed to represent the renewing of faith. Christ in us . They in selfish false pride added thier own personal touch . They were consumed .Not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire.

Jesus the Son on man from Judah became the high priest of our calling Men and women from all the nations sent out two by two with the gospel .The priesthood of believer.

Same ceremonial law a shadow a sign to the world today . .not unto there own selves

 

[grace2]

With this statement, a candidate is baptized and welcomed as a new member of the body of Christ. The phrase taken from Matthew 28:19 followed Jesus' command to baptize all nations. But is this phrase really the saying of Jesus? Or was the scripture altered during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity?

Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, “father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed. Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a “solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord”

Because this scripture is important to the trinitarian belief, there has been little interest in pursuing its authenticity. Yet some scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries believe the scripture was altered. James Martineau, in Seat of Authority, says that the “very account which tells us that at last, after his resurrection, he commissioned his apostles to go and baptize all nations, betrays itself by speaking in the Trinitarian language of the next century and compels us to see in it the ecclesiastical editor.”

In History of Dogma, Adolph Harnack claims Matthew 28:19 is “no word of the Lord” Even the cautious critic Canon Armitage Robinson, in Encyclopedia Biblica, says that Matthew “does not here report the (very words) of Jesus, but transfers to him the familiar language of the church of the Evangelist's own time and locality.”

There are early church writers who also seem to support these views. Eusebius, a fourth century writer, had the greatest library of any early church scribe. It contained manuscripts of the new testament that were at least 200 years older than any existing today. Manuscripts copied by Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others not available today gave him access to almost original material. Eusebius cites Matthew 28:19 eighteen times in his work, always in the same form: “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”

When he comments on the verse, Eusebius places great stress on the phrase, “in my name.” Apparently his sources, Origen, Clement and Justin Martyr, excluded “father” and “holy spirit” from this scripture.

Justin Martyr wrote between 130 A.D. and 140 A.D. While much of his work is no longer available, there is a passage that is generally thought to be a reference to Matthew 28:19:

“God hath not yet inflicted nor inflicts the judgment, as knowing of some that still even today ARE BEING MADE DISCIPLES IN THE NAME OF HIS CHRIST, and are abandoning the path of error, who also do receive gifts each as they be worthy, being illumined by the name of this Christ.”

Aphraates, a Syriac writer of the middle-fourth century, cites the text in yet a different manner, “Make disciples of all nations, and they shall believe in me.”

It probably was not until the middle of the third century that the current rendering of Matthew 28:19 appeared when Bishop Cyprian of Rome insisted on the triple formula for baptism. Ironically, Pope Stephen used only one name, Jesus.

During the fourth century, the orthodox church used the phrase, “in the name of the father, son and holy ghost” as a battle cry against the Macedonians who claimed that no new testament text supported the spirit as part of the trinity. However, by the seventh century the church had wholeheartedly accepted the current rendering of the scripture, and excommunicated the Celtic church for insisting on one name in baptism.

In 1902, the modern scholar F.C. Conybeare summed up the history of the development of Matthew 28:19 as follows: “It is worth considering, however, whether the original text of the gospel did not end at the word 'nations,' and whether the three rival endings of the text were not developed independently, viz: (i) 'in my name' in Justin, Eusebius, and perhaps Stephen of Rome and the Pneumato-machi (ii) (iii) 'and they shall believe in me, in Aphraates, representing the older Syriac version 'baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Ghost; or similar in the Greek gnostic Theodotus, Ter-tullian Latin version of Irenaeus, and the surviving Greek MSS.”

There are four instances of baptism by the Apostles recorded in the book of Acts. In each instance, only the name of Jesus is used in connection with the baptism.

Acts 2:38. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost was followed by a call to those who would become followers of Jesus: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)

Acts 8:16. Philip preached throughout Samaria and gained several converts. However, when Peter and John arrived, those converts had not received the gifts of the spirit that normally accompanied conversion in those days. They then laid their hands upon them, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

Acts 10:48. Cornelius, the first Gentile convert, was baptized after a lengthy conversation with Peter: “So he ordered that they be baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.” (NIV)

Acts 19:5. Paul's initial encounter with the brethren at Ephesus caused him concern as they had been baptized by Apollos with John's baptism. He instructed them regarding Jesus: “On hearing this, they were baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

It is only recently that the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 has come into doubt. As Bible students, we should always examine the translations carefully to assure that we are following the original texts as closely as possible. When dealing with subjects like the trinity, this has especially been true. Although Matthew 28:19 has not yet been agreed upon by a majority of scholars as spurious, there is certainly enough evidence to limit its use. At least it would be wise to consider it inappropriate for use in baptism, given its questionable history and subtle support of the doctrine of the trinity.

Very interesting.

It seems to make sense.

thank you for your great addition.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer.

Baptism. . a ceremonial sign or shadow. A gospel sign to the whole un-believing world. It does nothing to the performers, again as shadow of the Holy Spirit working in the heart of those born again ..

The foundation of the priesthood the tribe of Levi, volunteers not all Levites served as priest. It was promised to the tribe of Judah (Jesus)
pased on from John the Baptist

The time of the first century reformation had come. . shadows became substance .

The sign of Joel had come to pass. A new priesthood men and women prophets from all nations declaring' the gospel to the world .

The 2 high walls that separated Jewish men from Jewish women (men's only club) And another wall dividing nation of from nation came down Mixed families could now gather together as one the bride of Christ.

The gospel explosion one like never before or ever again still doing its living work .

Acts 2:15-17King James Version15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Today the use of water needed to represent the doctrines of Christ that fall like rain (Deuteronomy 32:1-2) are the same doctrines that worked in the Levites

Below the baptism of the Holy Spirit

Deuteronomy 32King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

We are warned not to duplicate that of Aarons two sons.(Blasphemy) On the first day they refused to be use it as a sign to the unbelieving words but added their own personal touch called strange fire (forbidden) I did it. . it proves I am born again .They were consumed by fire

The ceremonial attire a shadow to the world not a hint of smoke

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[ChristB4us]

With this statement, a candidate is baptized and welcomed as a new member of the body of Christ. The phrase taken from Matthew 28:19 followed Jesus' command to baptize all nations. But is this phrase really the saying of Jesus? Or was the scripture altered during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity?

Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, “father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed. Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a “solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord”

I would say that the singular name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost by that name we are to be water baptized by is Jesus. They do not have to say it like the way Jesus did in Matthew 28:19 when that name is Jesus.

As for 1 John 5:7 being spurious, there are extrabiblical sources citing 1 John 5:7 regarding the 3 Witnesses in Heaven as original scripture.

Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?

1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.

www.chick.com

200 AD	Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD	Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD	Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD	Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD	Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD	Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD	Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD	Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are: A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven" B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.] C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

There is more in that list at that link above.

When you read 1 John 5:6-9, when you remove the verse of the 3 Witnesses in Heaven, then how can the One Witness of the Father regarding His Son in verse 9 be greater than the many witnesses of men in the earth?

Also, God requires more than one witness to establish a true witness.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Even in the New Testament, Jesus continues to endorse this rule for establishing a testimony or for judging anyone.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Paul states the same;

2 Corinthians 13:This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

So as God commands of men, will He not do as well to establish a testimony or to judge anyone?

Jesus as that Word of God had asked the Father to create man after our image and after our likeness and the Father agreed for how the Word of God created man after His image and after His likeness with the Father's permission and the compliance of the Holy Spirit in agreement.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jesus as the Word of God, did it again when judging the people at the tower of Babel for He made that request to the Father and then the Word of God scattered the people by the permissive will of the Father and the compliance of the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The Hebrew word for Elohim is plural for gods and yet that is the One God that Elohim is referring to in Genesis.

There is more verses testifying to the plurality within the One God.

There is a prophesy of how the Lord God Our Redeemer that is speaking was to be sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

This was fulfilled at Jesus's water baptism.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the witness of the Holy Spirit alighting on Jesus from Heaven was required to add to the verbal testimony of the Father from heaven to make the Father's witness true regarding His Son as God.

When you look at what happens to us when we are born again, there is a plurality mention in regards to how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is in us.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him....26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So there are Three Witnesses within the One God for how the Word of God establishes a word in creation or to judge anyone per the will of the Father. "They" are considered One God as the Father is greater than the Son only because it is the Father's will to be done that both the Son and the Holy Spirit are submissive to.

to be continued...

 

[ChristB4us]

Continued.....

However, just because there is a Triune God, does not mean we can honor the father by honoring the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son as there are no scriptures for that practice at all but we can only come to the Father by the only way provided and that is by His Son and we can only honor the father by only honoring the Son BECAUSE the moment we stop honoring the Son, we are no longer honoring the Father.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The role of the holy Spirit is to testify of the Son through us to glorify the Son and so He would not lead us to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory but of the Son in seeking His glory in order for us to glorify God the Father by.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So that is why the Holy Spirit is the perfect Divine Witness as He will lead us to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and that has to include worship in truly honoring the Father by only honoring the Son.

There is no other way to honor the father by; not by honoring the Holy Spirit and not by honoring the "blessed Trinity" as sometimes hymnals do defer from His will, but by only honoring the Son is how we honor God the Father by in everything.

it is because of the spirits of the antichrist that are in the world that would come into the worship place with signs and lying wonders is why all invitations to come to the Son and continue to come to the Bridegroom is to avoid those spirits of the antichrist.

Antichrist, as applied in scripture means "instead of Christ" or to be more precise since Jesus is the Christ, "instead of the Son" which the indwelling holy Spirit would never take our eyes off of the Son but the visiting spirits of the antichrist would with their signs and lying wonders.

So may believers not apply the Trinity doctrine as if that is another way to honor God the Father by when that is not. may they narrow the way back to the straight gate and climb up no other way, not even the broad way, not even by the "blessed Trinity" way les they be left behind.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

It does matter what direction you take in coming to God the Father for anything in prayer, worship or fellowship and that is thru His Son only.

 

[donadams]

Does this mean Jesus is not divine anymore!

Thks

 

[Mr GLee]

Three is used to identify the end of a matter...throughout the Bible

1John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (of the father) and the Holy Ghost: (the spirit of the father ) and these three are one.(the voice of the father) And there are three (the same) that bear witness in earth, (hear o ye earth, Deuteronomy 3) the Spirit, (represented by water ) and the water, and (mixed )the blood: and these three agree in one.

Deuteronomy 32King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:


The dynamic dual representing one God has spoke . The Holy Spirit eternal God not seen the power of the father working in the Son of man the temporal historical seen

The mixing formula needed to rightly divide the parables which without Christ spoke not

2 Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does this mean Jesus is not divine anymore!

Thks

Hi Don

Jesus the Son of man is our brother in the "Devine invisible Lord"

Whosoever does the will of the invisible head Christ.

Jesus the Son man is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters .Matthew 12:50...Mark 3:35

God is not a dying mankind under a curse (appointment to die once ). . as us.

Devine has no shape or form and neither would it require the temporal dying things. . walking by sight (no faith)..

Christ working in us . . .Not Christ is dying mankind. . .us..

The Catholic book of the oral traditons of the legion of dying fathers

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".

 

[Fred]

With this statement, a candidate is baptized and welcomed as a new member of the body of Christ. The phrase taken from Matthew 28:19 followed Jesus' command to baptize all nations. But is this phrase really the saying of Jesus? Or was the scripture altered during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity?

Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, “father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed. Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a “solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord”

Because this scripture is important to the trinitarian belief, there has been little interest in pursuing its authenticity. Yet some scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries believe the scripture was altered. James Martineau, in Seat of Authority, says that the “very account which tells us that at last, after his resurrection, he commissioned his apostles to go and baptize all nations, betrays itself by speaking in the Trinitarian language of the next century and compels us to see in it the ecclesiastical editor.”

In History of Dogma, Adolph Harnack claims Matthew 28:19 is “no word of the Lord” Even the cautious critic Canon Armitage Robinson, in Encyclopedia Biblica, says that Matthew “does not here report the (very words) of Jesus, but transfers to him the familiar language of the church of the Evangelist's own time and locality.”

There are early church writers who also seem to support these views. Eusebius, a fourth century writer, had the greatest library of any early church scribe. It contained manuscripts of the new testament that were at least 200 years older than any existing today. Manuscripts copied by Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others not available today gave him access to almost original material. Eusebius cites Matthew 28:19 eighteen times in his work, always in the same form: “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”

When he comments on the verse, Eusebius places great stress on the phrase, “in my name.” Apparently his sources, Origen, Clement and Justin Martyr, excluded “father” and “holy spirit” from this scripture.

Justin Martyr wrote between 130 A.D. and 140 A.D. While much of his work is no longer available, there is a passage that is generally thought to be a reference to Matthew 28:19:

“God hath not yet inflicted nor inflicts the judgment, as knowing of some that still even today ARE BEING MADE DISCIPLES IN THE NAME OF HIS CHRIST, and are abandoning the path of error, who also do receive gifts each as they be worthy, being illumined by the name of this Christ.”

Aphraates, a Syriac writer of the middle-fourth century, cites the text in yet a different manner, “Make disciples of all nations, and they shall believe in me.”

It probably was not until the middle of the third century that the current rendering of Matthew 28:19 appeared when Bishop Cyprian of Rome insisted on the triple formula for baptism. Ironically, Pope Stephen used only one name, Jesus.

During the fourth century, the orthodox church used the phrase, “in the name of the father, son and holy ghost” as a battle cry against the Macedonians who claimed that no new testament text supported the spirit as part of the trinity. However, by the seventh century the church had wholeheartedly accepted the current rendering of the scripture, and excommunicated the Celtic church for insisting on one name in baptism.

In 1902, the modern scholar F.C. Conybeare summed up the history of the development of Matthew 28:19 as follows: “It is worth considering, however, whether the original text of the gospel did not end at the word 'nations,' and whether the three rival endings of the text were not developed independently, viz: (i) 'in my name' in Justin, Eusebius, and perhaps Stephen of Rome and the Pneumato-machi (ii) (iii) 'and they shall believe in me, in Aphraates, representing the older Syriac version 'baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Ghost; or similar in the Greek gnostic Theodotus, Ter-tullian Latin version of Irenaeus, and the surviving Greek MSS.”

There are four instances of baptism by the Apostles recorded in the book of Acts. In each instance, only the name of Jesus is used in connection with the baptism.

Acts 2:38. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost was followed by a call to those who would become followers of Jesus: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)

Acts 8:16. Philip preached throughout Samaria and gained several converts. However, when Peter and John arrived, those converts had not received the gifts of the spirit that normally accompanied conversion in those days. They then laid their hands upon them, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

Acts 10:48. Cornelius, the first Gentile convert, was baptized after a lengthy conversation with Peter: “So he ordered that they be baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.” (NIV)

Acts 19:5. Paul's initial encounter with the brethren at Ephesus caused him concern as they had been baptized by Apollos with John's baptism. He instructed them regarding Jesus: “On hearing this, they were baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (NIV)

It is only recently that the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 has come into doubt. As Bible students, we should always examine the translations carefully to assure that we are following the original texts as closely as possible. When dealing with subjects like the trinity, this has especially been true. Although Matthew 28:19 has not yet been agreed upon by a majority of scholars as spurious, there is certainly enough evidence to limit its use. At least it would be wise to consider it inappropriate for use in baptism, given its questionable history and subtle support of the doctrine of the trinity.

Zero Greek manuscripts read otherwise.

 

[Mr GLee]

With this statement, a candidate is baptized and welcomed as a new member of the body of Christ. The phrase taken from Matthew 28:19 followed Jesus' command to baptize all nations. But is this phrase really the saying of Jesus? Or was the scripture altered during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity?

I would offer the two kinds of references to the word wash or baptize . One Literal temporal h20. . the other unseen spiritual eternal.

Satan who turns things upside down as usual would make it all one in the same. Therefore no spiritual understanding as it is written (sola scriptura)

The what you see is what your get ."Out of sight. . . out of mind" The foundation of all the pagan religions of the world. Imagine, wonder, doubt, wonder, suffer limbo purgatory

Literal temporal h20 must be mixed with Chrsits faith or labor of love , (the water of the word) the unseen eternal things of Christ the husband.

The washing and renewing of the bride in the same way he washes His bride the church Daily baptizing the wife with the water of the word the doctrines that fall like rain from heaven giving life on earth

Deuteronomy 32King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

The baptism of the water of the word. . the gospel baptizing all the nations as families of this world . The idea of making that verse literal h20 baptism of the world. . . like the flood . . it will not occur . Fire will consume . Spiritual not seen eternal.

Not h20 . the temporal seen must be compared to the spiritual eternal not seen things of God . Then we can enter his rest when they are mixed in parables.

Ephesians 5:25-27King James Version25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The two must be mixed our no faithful gospel rest. The parables will remain mysteries hid from natural un- converted mankind . They will receive no rest The historical temporal must be mixed .Takes a little digging .Not just rake the leaves

Hebrews 4King James Version Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The ceremonial baptism does use h20 as a gospel sign to the unbelieving world. It was passed down to a new kingdom of priest, men and women from all the nations of the world .Not a sign unto themselves Aarons two sons attempted 15 seconds of false fame the adding to the living word (strange fire consumed them both Not a hint of smoke on the priestly attire .

No signs were giver to wonder after .believer has prophecy .Jesus the prophet said it is a evil faithless generation that does seek after sign to wonder after .Satan the king of lying sign is busy today .

Our heavenly Father lovingly commands "marvel not" ,but rather believe as a anchor to ones new born again soul