Young Earth/Old Earth

[David1701]

The Masoretic text puts a special notation in Genesis One to reveal to the reader that there is to be a pause between verse 1 and 2.

Why?

The Torah was being taught a people that did not have their own Bibles. They stood and got their teaching directly from Moses .

That note to pause cause an effect like a radio drama taking place where the listener needed to use his imagination to create in his mind images while following the narrative coming from the one speaking. In radio they used to use organ music to show a change in scene giving it a pause between scenes,

The pause is also a technique we see in movies where someone was speaking about something that happened.... and then there is a fade out..... And, then a fade in, unto the time what was being spoken about was taking place. Like when someone was reminiscing about some past event... then a fade out.. to take us to be watching the reliving of what past event in a new scene. That way showing us what that person was remembering as if we are being there..

So?

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth! (very dramatic presentation) . ..

Then.. Pause....

Then. Fade back to a new scene, placing the hearer in the next scene in the point of time of its taking place.

So, when some folks dig in and wish to argue over.. The earth "became" - or - The earth "was" - toho wabohu? It still can mean "was" and still be speaking of another time. For the fade out caused by the pause was taking us out of one point of time, and taking us to another point in time.

So? When it says the earth was in ruin, and having an eerie sense of emptiness surrounding it? (tohu wabohu)
That verse was placing us in a time to view the actual destroyed planet. It does not mean God created it that way.

"God created the heavens and earth,." (then a pause with fade out)..
Then, pause ends and a fade in to show us what became of the earth. But, as if we were viewing it in actual time of its ruined state of being.

Genesis 1:2 simply has us looking at the state of the planet at a given point of time. A moment when God began to move to restore life on the planet to be recovered after tohu wabohu.

Some will ague about ... "It became." Or "It was" tohu wabohu ...all they like. For hey are missing the factor of a fade out/pause after verse One. Followed by a fade into another point in time as seen in Genesis 1:2.

I hope I made that clear enough to help.



grace and peace ...............

It doesn't say that the earth was in ruin. It says that it was unformed and unfilled (as yet).

 

[TB2]

I couldn't agree with your first sentence more.

The author's use of merisms throughout that expresses meaning to the original intended audience continues to enhance understanding for people thousands of years later.

______
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Thanks for the article! Very interesting

 

[TB2]

To me, it seems like Gen 1.1 is a title/summary. A merism as @Inertia notes. Together with Gen 2.1 it forms an inclusio that begins and ends with a statement about the "heavens and the earth." According to Genesis 1, God's first divine act of creation was the creation of (day)light on Day 1 by divine fiat. Exodus 20.11 also says God made "the heaven and earth..." in six days. This too suggests that v 2-3 depict a (chaotic primeval) state of pre-creation before God initiated creation.

I do not have a solution for the problems it poses to have pre-existent matter prior to the start of creation, but Genesis 1 does seem to teach it (and doesn't explain it either).

Exodus 20.11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[GeneZ]

It doesn't say that the earth was in ruin. It says that it was unformed and unfilled (as yet).

Jeremiah who quoted Genesis 1:2 when he prophesied about the destruction (tohu wa bohu) of the rebellious Jews, by telling them they will become simply unformed and unfilled?

When Jeremiah was prophesying about utter destruction and chaos of the land in Jeremiah 4:23?

I don't think you are getting it any better with translators who were weak in their over all Biblical understanding .....

But, Biblical scholars have written books on what I speak....

 

[GeneZ]

The Masoretic text puts a special notation in Genesis One to reveal to the reader that there is to be a pause between verse 1 and 2.

Found the source here....

​

Furthermore, in the Massoretic Text in which the Jewish scholars​

​

tried to incorporate enough "indicators" to guide the reader as to​

​

correct punctuation there is one small mark which is technically​

​

known as Rebhia which is classified as a "disjunctive accent" in-​

​

tended to notify the reader that he should pause before proceeding to​

​

the next verse. In short, this mark indicates a "break" in the text.​

​

Such a mark appears at the end of Genesis 1.1. This mark has been​

​

noted by several scholars including Luther. ​

​

https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html​

grace and peace ..........

 

[prism]

Young. mainly because of the definition of a 'day' in Genesis 1...'evening and morning'...one day. Only seminary students can mess up that plain language/meaning.

 

[David1701]

Jeremiah who quoted Genesis 1:2 when he prophesied about the destruction (tohu wa bohu) of the rebellious Jews, by telling them they will become simply unformed and unfilled?

When Jeremiah was prophesying about utter destruction and chaos of the land in Jeremiah 4:23?

I don't think you are getting it any better with translators who were weak in their over all Biblical understanding .....

But, Biblical scholars have written books on what I speak....

That passage in Jeremiah is comparing the darkness and unformed/empty condition of Israel, after judgment upon them, with the unformed and unfilled condition of creation, before it was formed and filled. What it is NOT doing, is saying that the condition of the Earth, before being formed and filled, was a result of ruination.

It is not the translators who were weak in understanding, but interpreters who make unfounded assumptions, as you have done.

 

[TB2]

That passage in Jeremiah is comparing the darkness and unformed/empty condition of Israel, after judgment upon them, with the unformed and unfilled condition of creation, before it was formed and filled. What it is NOT doing, is saying that the condition of the Earth, before being formed and filled, was a result of ruination.

It is not the translators who were weak in understanding, but interpreters who make unfounded assumptions, as you have done.

In fairness, tohu wabohu does express the sense of "total chaos," but I agree with you that it doesn't convey a past or pluperfect tense of "was" or "had been" ruined. There is nothing to indicate God created a perfect state that then *became* ruined. Gen 1.2 simply depicts a pre-creation state of chaos prior to God's first divine act of creation by fiat. The Bible doesn't tell us anymore, so it still is a bit of a mystery.

 

[GeneZ]

That passage in Jeremiah is comparing the darkness and unformed/empty condition of Israel, after judgment upon them, with the unformed and unfilled condition of creation, before it was formed and filled. What it is NOT doing, is saying that the condition of the Earth, before being formed and filled, was a result of ruination.

It is not the translators who were weak in understanding, but interpreters who make unfounded assumptions, as you have done.

You are just not getting it..

Or, maybe? Do not want to get it.

So?

grace and peace .........

 

[David1701]

In fairness, tohu wabohu does express the sense of "total chaos," but I agree with you that it doesn't convey a past or pluperfect tense of "was" or "had been" ruined. There is nothing to indicate God created a perfect state that then *became* ruined. Gen 1.2 simply depicts a pre-creation state of chaos prior to God's first divine act of creation by fiat. The Bible doesn't tell us anymore, so it still is a bit of a mystery.

Here are the BDB Lexicon's entries for the relevant words.

- Original: תּהוּ
- Transliteration: Tohuw
- Phonetic: to'-hoo
- Definition:
1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity
- Origin: from an unused root meaning to lie waste

- Original: בּהוּ
- Transliteration: Bohuw
- Phonetic: bo'-hoo
- Definition:
1. emptiness, void, waste
- Origin: from an unused root (meaning to be empty)

So "formless (or unformed) and empty" would be a very good rendering. This is like a potter with some clay that he has not formed into a vase yet.

 

[GeneZ]

In fairness, tohu wabohu does express the sense of "total chaos," but I agree with you that it doesn't convey a past or pluperfect tense of "was" or "had been" ruined. There is nothing to indicate God created a perfect state that then *became* ruined. Gen 1.2 simply depicts a pre-creation state of chaos prior to God's first divine act of creation by fiat. The Bible doesn't tell us anymore, so it still is a bit of a mystery.

It does not have to directly convey in the grammar "became."

For that was not how it was to be read.

It was a NARRATIVE. Moses spoke to the gathered people and let their imaginations fill in the imagery as Moses read on.

It began with drama!

"In the beginning God created the heavens and earth!"​

Then... the Hebrew reader was to detect the need for a moment of silence with a pause.

Silence....

Then the reader was to to fade back into a new scene....

And the earth was Tohu wabohu...." (it does say 'was!')

To the Hebrew mind there was no need to say it "became" Tohu wabohu. (utter ruin and chaos)
Because the state of the earth as it was described they knew God would not have ever created that way!

That is why some argue to make it read "became."

And, the grammar police demand it is to be read "was."

Both failing to see the the narrative technique indicated to have a pause in the reading. It originally was for the *public reading* of Genesis as Moses was to speak before the people.

Here is that Hebrew grammatical modifier.....

Furthermore, in the Massoretic Text in which the Jewish scholars​

tried to incorporate enough "indicators" to guide the reader as to​

correct punctuation there is one small mark which is technically​

known as Rebhia which is classified as a "disjunctive accent" ​

intended to notify the reader that he should pause before ​

proceeding to the next verse. ​

​

In short, this mark indicates a "break" in the text.​

Such a mark appears at the end of Genesis 1.1. ​

​

This mark has been noted by several scholars including Luther. ​

​

https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html​

Please note that!

For the conventional traditional arguments, have become like a dog wearing himself out chasing his tail.

grace and peace ....................

 

[TB2]

It began with a "Boom!"

There is no "boom!" in the Hebrew

Then... the Hebrew reader was to detect the need for a pause

Or it indicates Gen 1.1 is a title/summary.

And the earth was Tohu wabohu...."

To the Hebrew mind there was no need to say "became" Tohu wabohu.
Because the state of the earth described they knew God would not have ever created that way!

Like I said, it is closer to Egyptian parallels to the widely believed primeval chaos state of things prior to creation. Scripture doesn't explain or solve the problem it creates. But what you're suggesting is not actually a translation of Scripture, but an explanation to try to solve the theological problems a pre-existent primeval state of chaos creates prior to creation.

 

[GeneZ]

There is no "boom!" in the Hebrew

Or it indicates Gen 1.1 is a title/summary.

Like I said, it is closer to Egyptian parallels to the widely believed primeval chaos state of things prior to creation. Scripture doesn't explain or solve the problem it creates. But what you're suggesting is not actually a translation of Scripture, but an explanation to try to solve the theological problems a pre-existent primeval state of chaos creates prior to creation.

Why should not some Egyptians have such a revelation? God only works though names mentioned in the Bible?

 

[EarlyActs]

Here are the BDB Lexicon's entries for the relevant words.

- Original: תּהוּ
- Transliteration: Tohuw
- Phonetic: to'-hoo
- Definition:
1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity
- Origin: from an unused root meaning to lie waste

- Original: בּהוּ
- Transliteration: Bohuw
- Phonetic: bo'-hoo
- Definition:
1. emptiness, void, waste
- Origin: from an unused root (meaning to be empty)

So "formless (or unformed) and empty" would be a very good rendering. This is like a potter with some clay that he has not formed into a vase yet.

But surely you can't overlook the one other time the expression is used, Jer 4:23. The city of Jerusalem is destroyed and called tw-b. Not that that clears up everything, but perhaps with some other NT clues, there is a picture (those Peter and Jude references to rebellious angels and where they were imprisoned.)

 

[TB2]

Why should not some Egyptians have such a revelation? God only works though names mentioned in the Bible?

Don't understand what you mean. What I'm referring to is this.

 

[EarlyActs]

But surely you can't overlook the one other time the expression is used, Jer 4:23. The city of Jerusalem is destroyed and called tw-b. Not that that clears up everything, but perhaps with some other NT clues, there is a picture (those Peter and Jude references to rebellious angels and where they were imprisoned.)

This is not saying there was human history before this. Maybe a clarification about the image of God will help. Such images were markers of territories. That in itself meant that the 'territory' might have been someone else's before, and was now marked by Yahweh as his.

I don't think every early narrative in Genesis was directed at Egyptian theology, because there were other cultures (the Nephilim) in Cana before the Egyptian setting.

 

[TB2]

I don't think every early narrative in Genesis was directed at Egyptian theology, because there were other cultures (the Nephilim) in Cana before the Egyptian setting.

Only Genesis chapter 1

 

[EarlyActs]

Only Genesis chapter 1

yet the image of God principle would apply to any competitors.

 

[TB2]

yet the image of God principle would apply to any competitors.

See the following

 

[David1701]

But surely you can't overlook the one other time the expression is used, Jer 4:23. The city of Jerusalem is destroyed and called tw-b. Not that that clears up everything, but perhaps with some other NT clues, there is a picture (those Peter and Jude references to rebellious angels and where they were imprisoned.)

This came up earlier in the thread.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/young-earth-old-earth.455/post-25158