Why so much against Calvinism?

[PeterJens]

Are you a sheep because you believe in Jesus; or, do you believe in Jesus because you are a sheep?

John 10:24-29 (EMTV)
24 Then the Jews encircled Him and said to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, these things testify about Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, just as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I like this question. You have centred around belief. Belief is a response, "God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life" Acts 11:18
The Lord calls and then chooses.
"For many are called, but few are chosen" Matt 22:14
"And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Matt 10:37

Our response matters, but we are also the chosen.
There appears to be an obvious life reality, we have faith in God and love which we recognise in Jesus. Jesus did not declare who He was but let the disciples discover Him themselves. Status and flattery are not the point, it is the relationship and how life and relationships work.

From eternity we could be His sheep, so we respond to His voice. It could also be everyone hears His voice, but like the seed and sower, the word gets snatched away because the heart is hard.

If creation is actually variation which is selected from rather than exact engineering, then choice is part of everything but also predestination. Part of the problem is responsibility for sin and there by just destruction in the lake of fire. Fear of destruction is wisdom, but surprisingly few seemed that bothered. A lot more are bothered by broken relationships with people they love, and those who are healed and forgiven, become disciples to the King.

One of our key witness areas is changed lives, soft hearts, care for needs and seeing others in need. This is partly choice but also fruit of the Holy Spirit working in the heart.

God bless you

 

[Josheb]

Calvinists, what do you think are the reasons? Why [so much against Calvinism]?

Based on my personal experience vigorously defending synergism and taking delight arguing with Cals in the past, as well as about fifteen years of debate in interweb forums where I started out Calminian, I'd say the chief challenge is the perception I was involved in my own salvation and the difficulty submitting our perceptions of our anecdotal experience plainly read scripture. The chief challenge, imo, is psychological and spiritual. The problems in exegesis are secondary to that. Some Arms can acknowledge some of the inferences they assume but rarely can they acknowledge all of them. It's tough to read scripture exactly as written because most, if not all, of us learn to read the Bible alongside weekly sermons, sectarian Bible study, and the individual experience reading selectively extra-biblical sources. The third obstacle is the many straw men associated with monergism. I cannot count the times I've read/heard "robot theology" or "puppet salvation." Aaaaargh! I used them myself to rag on Cals. Dumb

That being said. Those are all sort of smokescreens or red herrings because the real problem is the failure to get up close and personal with our sin and up close and personal with God's holy righteousness or purity. The chasm between the two isn't large, it is infinite. Anyone truly knowing their depravity knows synergy fails because of that depravity. It's like trying to make a fine meal with feces and vomit.

 

[PeterJens]

Based on my personal experience vigorously defending synergism and taking delight arguing with Cals in the past, as well as about fifteen years of debate in interweb forums where I started out Calminian, I'd say the chief challenge is the perception I was involved in my own salvation and the difficulty submitting our perceptions of our anecdotal experience plainly read scripture. The chief challenge, imo, is psychological and spiritual. The problems in exegesis are secondary to that. Some Arms can acknowledge some of the inferences they assume but rarely can they acknowledge all of them. It's tough to read scripture exactly as written because most, if not all, of us learn to read the Bible alongside weekly sermons, sectarian Bible study, and the individual experience reading selectively extra-biblical sources. The third obstacle is the many straw men associated with monergism. I cannot count the times I've read/heard "robot theology" or "puppet salvation." Aaaaargh! I used them myself to rag on Cals. Dumb

That being said. Those are all sort of smokescreens or red herrings because the real problem is the failure to get up close and personal with our sin and up close and personal with God's holy righteousness or purity. The chasm between the two isn't large, it is infinite. Anyone truly knowing their depravity knows synergy fails because of that depravity. It's like trying to make a fine meal with feces and vomit.

I understand the proposition about our failure and Gods purity. But there is a large difference between the righteous and the lost.
If one looks at human society it is the corruption of love and need that leads to death. But it is not that love and wisdom does not exist in peoples lives. It is why many end up universalists, believing the love will draw and purify all in the end.

The Lords testimony is He is the source of life, the source of truth, the source of all our answers. And it is He through Jesus opens the door to heart communion. It has puzzled me how none emotional many are within faith, yet walking with Jesus is walking with an open loving heart. Our mental illnesses come from worry, fear, and not learning what our feelings are and to find appropriate places for them. Paul said through the Holy Spirit and walking with Jesus we can obtain victory and eventually perfection. He went so far as to declare we should aim at perfection.

I speak as one who came from a family who did not understand Jesus or emotions, or their own motivations or their ability to express who they are and encourage and love others. The prison Jesus comes to set us free from is this darkness, lostness and emptiness. The cross is the ultimate symbol of promise, of love, of commitment and where we can put 100% our trust.

When are we made perfect? When are we cleansed and purified? Now. But we have to learn to walk and work through our weakness and grow in love and grace through the Holy Spirit. If this is just delusion and self righteousness, where is the freedom from sin and cleansing of a guilty conscience.

The problem with self condemnation is it is brutal in the wrong areas, and what most actually need is not trying to be something they are not, but to accept Gods forgiveness, repent, and start loving others and themselves as saved redeemed people.

God bless you

 

[makesends]

Are you a sheep because you believe in Jesus; or, do you believe in Jesus because you are a sheep?

John 10:24-29 (EMTV)
24 Then the Jews encircled Him and said to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, these things testify about Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, just as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Depends on what you mean by "because". You are calling mutually exclusive, what are two different uses of the same term —one by way of Identification, the other by way of Causation.

 

[Illuminator]

I understand the proposition about our failure and Gods purity. But there is a large difference between the righteous and the lost.
If one looks at human society it is the corruption of love and need that leads to death. But it is not that love and wisdom does not exist in peoples lives. It is why many end up universalists, believing the love will draw and purify all in the end.

The Lords testimony is He is the source of life, the source of truth, the source of all our answers. And it is He through Jesus opens the door to heart communion. It has puzzled me how none emotional many are within faith, yet walking with Jesus is walking with an open loving heart. Our mental illnesses come from worry, fear, and not learning what our feelings are and to find appropriate places for them. Paul said through the Holy Spirit and walking with Jesus we can obtain victory and eventually perfection. He went so far as to declare we should aim at perfection.

I speak as one who came from a family who did not understand Jesus or emotions, or their own motivations or their ability to express who they are and encourage and love others. The prison Jesus comes to set us free from is this darkness, lostness and emptiness. The cross is the ultimate symbol of promise, of love, of commitment and where we can put 100% our trust.

When are we made perfect? When are we cleansed and purified? Now. But we have to learn to walk and work through our weakness and grow in love and grace through the Holy Spirit. If this is just delusion and self righteousness, where is the freedom from sin and cleansing of a guilty conscience.

The problem with self condemnation is it is brutal in the wrong areas, and what most actually need is not trying to be something they are not, but to accept Gods forgiveness, repent, and start loving others and themselves as saved redeemed people.

God bless you

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Christians who grow up in functioning families often feel they are missing out on a dynamic "born again" experience when in fact they don't need one.

As a Catholic I knew nothing about being "born again" and therefore had no interest in it. Later in life I was born again. If you aren't born again, you are going to hell.

 

[David1701]

Depends on what you mean by "because". You are calling mutually exclusive, what are two different uses of the same term —one by way of Identification, the other by way of Causation.

What I mean by "because"? It means that this is the cause; in this case, the cause of them not believing was that they were not sheep. Them not being sheep is what caused them not to believe.

The corollary is that others, who are sheep, will believe, because they are sheep. The point is that one is either a sheep or not, while in a state of unbelief. The sheep will believe, at the right time, because God will give them that faith, the others will not, because they are not sheep.

 

[Alive]

Jesus spoke much about some not being “given” eyes to see or ears to hear…
always two things are seen throughout scripture.
God chooses and God does.

 

[David1701]

As a Catholic I knew nothing about being "born again" and therefore had no interest in it. Later in life I was born again. If you aren't born again, you are going to hell.

RCs teach (heretically) that one is born again when sprinkled by an ordained RC priest (they call it "baptism" - wrongly). I discovered this, many years ago, when witnessing to an RC friend. I told him that the RC rituals would not save him and that he needed to be born again and trust wholly in Jesus Christ for salvation. I also encouraged him to read the Bible. He listened and became worried about the state of his soul.

He then went to his priest, who told him that he was born again, when he was "baptised", as an infant. This quashed whatever conviction there might have been and we gradually drifted apart. He started saying that the Psalms didn't speak to him and it became almost impossible to speak to him about the things of God.

That priest will answer to God, unless he repents.

 

[David1701]

Jesus spoke much about some not being “given” eyes to see or ears to hear…
always two things are seen throughout scripture.
God chooses and God does.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

RCs teach (heretically) that one is born again when sprinkled by an ordained RC priest (they call it "baptism" - wrongly). I discovered this, many years ago, when witnessing to an RC friend. I told him that the RC rituals would not save him and that he needed to be born again and trust wholly in Jesus Christ for salvation. I also encouraged him to read the Bible. He listened and became worried about the state of his soul.

He then went to his priest, who told him that he was born again, when he was "baptised", as an infant. This quashed whatever conviction there might have been and we gradually drifted apart. He started saying that the Psalms didn't speak to him and it became almost impossible to speak to him about the things of God.

That priest will answer to God, unless he repents.

I know the RC's teach water baptism is salvation or being born again. I was water baptised as a new born baby. After I was born again later in life I wanted to be water baptised as a believers baptism. The local Anglican church people told me they couldn't do it because I was infant Baptised. I still haven't had it yet, even though I was definitely saved 9 years ago in my bedroom. I am waiting on a Baptist church to have it done. Obviously I don't believe water baptism saves.

 

[Josheb]

I understand the proposition about our failure and Gods purity. But there is a large difference between the righteous and the lost.
If one looks at human society it is the corruption of love and need that leads to death. But it is not that love and wisdom does not exist in peoples lives. It is why many end up universalists, believing the love will draw and purify all in the end.

The Lords testimony is He is the source of life, the source of truth, the source of all our answers. And it is He through Jesus opens the door to heart communion. It has puzzled me how none emotional many are within faith, yet walking with Jesus is walking with an open loving heart. Our mental illnesses come from worry, fear, and not learning what our feelings are and to find appropriate places for them. Paul said through the Holy Spirit and walking with Jesus we can obtain victory and eventually perfection. He went so far as to declare we should aim at perfection.

I speak as one who came from a family who did not understand Jesus or emotions, or their own motivations or their ability to express who they are and encourage and love others. The prison Jesus comes to set us free from is this darkness, lostness and emptiness. The cross is the ultimate symbol of promise, of love, of commitment and where we can put 100% our trust.

Little of that has anything to do with the inquiry of the opening post.

When are we made perfect?

In resurrection. We are NOT made perfect now.

When are we cleansed and purified? Now.

Yes. Cleansed and purified but not perfect.


And it is statements like that which may lead others not to accept Calvinist soteriology.

But we have to learn to walk and work through our weakness and grow in love and grace through the Holy Spirit. If this is just delusion and self righteousness, where is the freedom from sin and cleansing of a guilty conscience.

Relevance?

The problem with self condemnation is it is brutal in the wrong areas, and what most actually need is not trying to be something they are not, but to accept Gods forgiveness, repent, and start loving others and themselves as saved redeemed people.

God bless you

Relevance?

 

[makesends]

Proposition 1: A reductionist framework were all are equally lost and incapable of being saved or acceptable, other than if changed. And the change when created is permanent, irrefutable and eternal. If this is ones belief system then there is no choice or resolution in which people partake just Gods will. I am not saying from some perspectives this is actually true, but God equally can create the environment were meaningful choice does take place. The tension is expressed in how Pharaoh responded to Moses's request to let Israel go and the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart. But equally choice does exist, and the disciples were called and they responded. What I am responding to is the expression by some that any participation by a believer in the outcome of the walk with Jesus is self righteousness and heresy, is a denial of the dynamic of who Jesus is and His appeal to His people. In one real sense we are drawn unto Him, because His light is so stunning, we walk on. In one way there is a choice but in another nothing else comes close. So I am reticent to say any description is finished, rather it is an infinite patchwork, where we grasp the beginning of just some of the implications.

I'm not just sure which side of this question you are on. You seem to accept that the logic is valid, that if the Creator has predetermined all things, that would then necessarily imply no valid choice on the part of the creature. That logic is not valid.

God is every bit that much above us; in fact, not only is it 'mechanically' true that his decree ESTABLISHES all things, in that all things subsequent to creation are indeed created things, by way of the chains of causation, and thus they are established fact; but it is also according to what you mention in your last paragraph and I discuss below in answer to you, that it is in him, to him, and for him, that all things are what they are and what they will be, and, that principle being established by him over his creation implies that he has established not only what we would properly call "things", but also every principle by which we operate —to wit: Our ability to choose, is established by God, and, in fact, our very choices themselves are established in every particular, by God. —Again, this does not logically imply that our choices are not valid. — It is the only way that our choices can be valid.

And, looking back at the flighty nature of our best choices, experience should bear this out. Our choices are not valid unless HE works them in us.


Makesends said: "Your last paragraph sounds like homemade philosophy. Not at all like scripture. What makes you assume we are born equally loving? Where do you come up with the notion of sin as revenge on betrayal? I don't at all follow how that has anything to do with being made in the image of God and desiring to be in the Kingdom. What you mean by "real choice" in the first sentence of the last paragraph? Are you assuming that "real choice" implies ability to choose either way? The lost, even when they suppose to "choose Christ", if it is not done as a result of God's regenerating them, are still not choosing Christ."

Homemade philosophy. What is it to be made in the image of God? We love, it is in the chore of who humans are. Just listen to people and their songs, which have love as the highest ethic, often opposed with disappointment and betrayal. Our commonest conversation among guys is I never knew my dad. Or a common dream is expressing love father to son, and son to father. Some of my friends spent their early years trying to get their dads to be proud of them. When you strip psychology down it is resolving these broken relationships and seeing God as our true Father, and Jesus as our brother as well as Saviour and Lord.

'Common' does not imply 'equal'.

When you mentioned, earlier, sin as "revenge on betrayal" did you mean, sinning in anger at the fact that God allowed one to be betrayed?

BUT, regardless of what we do know about love, we don't know what love is, until we see him as he is.

And here, too, is visible the theme/principle referred to below.

There is only one real choice in the universe to walk deeper with Jesus. To walk away is to walk into darkness and life falling apart. C S Lewis in the great divorce put it in terms of being like a ghost that over time becomes real. Choices, where I live, who I marry, do I want children, this type of job. It can feel like these are real and significant, but for me they are out shone by the walk with Jesus. And in a real way this is a daily choice, a daily giving, listening and walking in the way.

God bless you

There's a very real sense in which CS Lewis is right, there. He does have a way with words, doesn't he!? Jesus said, "Apart from me you can do nothing." —I like to say that apart from him we ARE nothing. This is the essence of the Christian walk, of what theologians refer to by, 'sanctification'. And this is the very reason for God making us. It is in our nature to become what we will be. We are not yet complete creatures. And God himself is our completion. One with God. When we see him as he is, the sons of God are revealed. Not even the angels have this, and it is for this that they love us, because God loves us.

 

[makesends]

What I mean by "because"? It means that this is the cause; in this case, the cause of them not believing was that they were not sheep. Them not being sheep is what caused them not to believe.

The corollary is that others, who are sheep, will believe, because they are sheep. The point is that one is either a sheep or not, while in a state of unbelief. The sheep will believe, at the right time, because God will give them that faith, the others will not, because they are not sheep.

I suppose that can be a valid way to put it. It certainly does imply predestination and election. But I tend to think in terms of that we are not his sheep until we are regenerated. Thus my POV better supports monergism. We can't hear his voice until he dwells within us.

As far as I know, neither way is denied by Scripture.

 

[Alive]

There's a very real sense in which CS Lewis is right, there. He does have a way with words, doesn't he!? Jesus said, "Apart from me you can do nothing." —I like to say that apart from him we ARE nothing. This is the essence of the Christian walk, of what theologians refer to by, 'sanctification'. And this is the very reason for God making us. It is in our nature to become what we will be. We are not yet complete creatures. And God himself is our completion. One with God. When we see him as he is, the sons of God are revealed. Not even the angels have this, and it is for this that they love us, because God loves us.

Amen! Outside of Christ since the fall, we were creatures destined to die as the animals do. The life force that animated us (if you will) was 'death'.
Christ came, that we might have Life and that Life is Christ.

 

[civic]

I suppose that can be a valid way to put it. It certainly does imply predestination and election. But I tend to think in terms of that we are not his sheep until we are regenerated. Thus my POV better supports monergism. We can't hear his voice until he dwells within us.

As far as I know, neither way is denied by Scripture.

same here we become His sheep once we believe, those who do not believe are not His sheep. In the end the result is the same- unbelief keeps one out of Gods kingdom and they remain unsaved and faith places one in His kingdom and they are saved.

 

[civic]

So why does Christ call them lost sheep if they aren't?

all we like sheep have gone astray and He goes after the one stray sheep and leaves the 99. The 1 was part of the 100 who strayed. When we are faithless ( stray away ) He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. We will most likely agree to disagree on this topic and I'm ok with that now.

 

[Alive]

all we like sheep have gone astray and He goes after the one stray sheep and leaves the 99. The 1 was part of the 100 who strayed. When we are faithless ( stray away ) He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. We will most likely agree to disagree on this topic and I'm ok with that now.

Is there a distinction in being like sheep in the characteristic of tending to stray and 'being' a sheep?

 

[civic]

So I see you actually do believe they are sheep, sheep that are lost and must be regathered. John 10:16.

well kind of , sort of

 

[David1701]

I suppose that can be a valid way to put it. It certainly does imply predestination and election. But I tend to think in terms of that we are not his sheep until we are regenerated. Thus my POV better supports monergism. We can't hear his voice until he dwells within us.

As far as I know, neither way is denied by Scripture.

Your POV is denied by Scripture (the view that we only become sheep when regenerated), although it's not a very serious mistake.

It's another mistake to think that unbelievers cannot hear God's voice. God can cause anyone to hear his voice, in one way or another (e.g. Balaam, Belshazzar, etc.).

John 10:15,16 (EMTV)
15 Just as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

The "other sheep" are the elect Gentiles, whom God would later cause to hear the gospel and join the one flock.