Why Did God Tell Israel That He is One?

[Arial]

Levi~care to share more of what they teach?

Kind of off topic isn't it? It would make a great thread.
Thanks.

 

[LeviR]

Levi~care to share more of what they teach?

I disagree with them on what body the faithful dead are raised with.
They say it’s a mortal body. The scripture says it’s an immortal body.

I am a futurist, they are historicist.

 

[Red Baker]

Kind of off topic isn't it? It would make a great thread.
Thanks.

I agree a separate thread.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

I disagree with them on what body the faithful dead are raised with. They say it’s a mortal body.
The scripture says it’s an immortal body.

1Cor 15:51-54 is kinda vague.

The bodies of Jesus' deceased followers will undergo two improvements. The first
one is relative to putrefaction, and the second is relative to immortality. I can't
really tell for sure whether the two improvements take place simultaneously.
_

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

I was Christadelphian until I spoke up against their denial that the faithful will be raised (resurrected from the dead) incorruptible.
I was disfellowshipped for it.
I would have left anyway because teaching that the faithful are not raised incorruptible is a false gospel.

I am not sure, but this has been an issue in the US and Canada, with possibly a few other problems. I can only ever remember my Dad speaking about this subject on one occasion. I believe that we are first raised from the dead and then face the Judgement Seat before we are accepted and given everlasting life, or rejected. There are two fellowships in the US/Canada, but I am unaware of their numbers and locations that would endorse your concept. The main fellowship problems in Australia were on the Atonement, but the two fellowships were mostly reunited through the ministry of John Carter in 1958.

With the eight meetings in our region we retain many of our Young People, partly due to our local private school, our young people's classes and activities, and our local Bible School with its three weeks of study and fellowship, and also other occasions. For my own part I feel sustained by access to many interesting and informative video talks, both local and overseas, and these have become much more plentiful since covid. I also enjoy many of our books, and I am one of the two librarians at our meeting. The latest is a very thorough commentary on Isaiah, with the first volume of three now available. I have read up to his coverage of Isaiah 6, one of my favourite OT chapters.

I am a futurist, they are historicist.

I am a historicist. We spent about six years studying the Book of Revelation recently in our Senior Sunday School Class, partly based upon John Thomas' five volume exposition "Eureka" that he wrote in the 1860's.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Trevor~would you give a short summary of your understanding of the the Deity of Jesus Christ as taught in the faith of Christadelphian. I'm convinced I know since I have debated you personally on this subject a few years back, but refresh my memory, or your present position~maybe you have change a little. My memory said that you totally reject Jesus as a complex person~fully God, and fully man.

Maybe Levi will start a thread on Christadelphian's eschatology, addressing such teachings as: "I believe that we are first raised from the dead and then face the Judgement Seat before we are accepted and given everlasting life, or rejected."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings prism and Greetings again Red Baker,

But the Jewish mind in the time of Christ? Paul, ....

Romans 1:1–7 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

But the Jewish mind in the time of Christ? ...., Peter

Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:32–36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV):1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

But the Jewish mind in the time of Christ? ...., John

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 1:3 (KJV): That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

But the Jewish mind in the time of Christ? .... James ?

James 1:1 (KJV): James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Greetings Trevor~would you given a short summary of your understanding of the the Deity of Jesus Christ as taught in the faith of Christadelphian.

Jesus is a human, now exalted and sitting at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

you totally reject Jesus as a complex person

I do not like your use of the word "complex" here. Jesus is unique, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. In some respects this is very simple and clear, but from another perspective this is complicated as to how Jesus could become the sinless human being, full of grace and truth, 11 PM here in Australia, signing out for another 15 hours until 2 PM tomorrow, Thursday.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

I am not sure, but this has been an issue in the US and Canada, with possibly a few other problems. I can only ever remember my Dad speaking about this subject on one occasion. I believe that we are first raised from the dead and then face the Judgement Seat before we are accepted and given everlasting life, or rejected. There are two fellowships in the US/Canada, but I am unaware of their numbers and locations that would endorse your concept. The main fellowship problems in Australia were on the Atonement, but the two fellowships were mostly reunited through the ministry of John Carter in 1958.

With the eight meetings in our region we retain many of our Young People, partly due to our local private school, our young people's classes and activities, and our local Bible School with its three weeks of study and fellowship, and also other occasions. For my own part I feel sustained by access to many interesting and informative video talks, both local and overseas, and these have become much more plentiful since covid. I also enjoy many of our books, and I am one of the two librarians at our meeting. The latest is a very thorough commentary on Isaiah, with the first volume of three now available. I have read up to his coverage of Isaiah 6, one of my favourite OT chapters.


I am a historicist. We spent about six years studying the Book of Revelation recently in our Senior Sunday School Class, partly based upon John Thomas' five volume exposition "Eureka" that he wrote in the 1860's.

Kind regards
Trevor

I believe John Thomas confuses the 4 living creatures and 24 elders who are immortal with the 144,000 who are mortal. They are not the same persons.

 

[Mr GLee]

I disagree with them on what body the faithful dead are raised with.
They say it’s a mortal body. The scripture says it’s an immortal body.

I am a futurist, they are historicist.

Hi Thanks

Interesting. ."Futurist". I never thought the word futurist could be used as a synonym for the word a prophet . .one the declares the word of God. like your own self .

The scriptures refer to them as the Watchers having the a foundation in the word as a vision the watching tool . Like Noah he knew he was coming but not the day, hour, year knows none.

Christ informs believers to look to the invisible eternal things of faith or power a labor of His love in us with us not the dying temporal

Jerimiah adds to the futurist watching doctrine .

Jeremiah 1:11-13New International Version The word of the Lord came to me: ‘What do you see, Jeremiah?’
‘I see the branch of an almond tree,’ I replied. The Lord said to me, ‘You have seen correctly, for I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled. ’(two is the witness God has spoken ) The word of the Lord came to me again: ‘What do you see?’‘I see a pot that is boiling,’ I answered. ‘It is tilting towards us from the north.’

Used that way throughout the bible .Watching him. . . teaching us to watch by faith the invisible things of Christ not after the temporal dying oral traditions .

Jeremiah 4:16-17 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Watchers the priesthood of believers .Exodus uses it to define the foundation of the priesthood of believers. . Two witness to indicate God has spoke . (one)Christ using Moses to represent the invisible presence of Christ and (two) Aaron the church .

Exodus 7: 1-2 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Two hidden witnesses. 1st lepers' dead flesh no sensitivity to the Spirit of Christ . the 2nd . .restored born again of the Holy Spirit

Exodus 4:6-12 And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs,( Two sets of two signs ) neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land. And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Moses is not used to represent the watcher or futurist You could say the watching futurist.

Maybe why he is not shown as entering .Moses represents our invisible God who is not subject to salvation.

 

[LeviR]

Hi Thanks

Interesting. ."Futurist". I never thought the word futurist could be used as a synonym for the word a prophet . .one the declares the word of God. like your own self .

The scriptures refer to them as the Watchers having the a foundation in the word as a vision the watching tool . Like Noah he knew he was coming but not the day, hour, year knows none.

Christ informs believers to look to the invisible eternal things of faith or power a labor of His love in us with us not the dying temporal

Jerimiah adds to the futurist watching doctrine .

Jeremiah 1:11-13New International Version The word of the Lord came to me: ‘What do you see, Jeremiah?’
‘I see the branch of an almond tree,’ I replied. The Lord said to me, ‘You have seen correctly, for I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled. ’(two is the witness God has spoken ) The word of the Lord came to me again: ‘What do you see?’‘I see a pot that is boiling,’ I answered. ‘It is tilting towards us from the north.’

Used that way throughout the bible .Watching him. . . teaching us to watch by faith the invisible things of Christ not after the temporal dying oral traditions .

Jeremiah 4:16-17 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Watchers the priesthood of believers .Exodus uses it to define the foundation of the priesthood of believers. . Two witness to indicate God has spoke . (one)Christ using Moses to represent the invisible presence of Christ and (two) Aaron the church .

Exodus 7: 1-2 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Two hidden witnesses. 1st lepers' dead flesh no sensitivity to the Spirit of Christ . the 2nd . .restored born again of the Holy Spirit

Exodus 4:6-12 And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs,( Two sets of two signs ) neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land. And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Moses is not used to represent the watcher or futurist You could say the watching futurist.

Maybe why he is not shown as entering .Moses represents our invisible God who is not subject to salvation.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Mr GLee]

But the Jewish mind in the time of Christ? Paul, Peter, John James etc?

God is not a racist.

I would ask?

What kind of Christ as a teaching authroity. . anti?? Two is the one witness God has spoken

Which kind of Jew? Outwardly dying flesh or born again inwardly a living spirit ?

Which Israel. . born again Israel or after Jacob non converted outward Jew?

Romans 2:29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:5-7King James Version5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Just like, all who name the name Christian are Christians .Some went out from us, (believers)

Like usual the father of lies would make it about the temporal dying oral traditons as if the they were of living invisible Spirit.

Seducing mankind to believe its all one in the same teaching authority taking away the spiritual value. making the living word of God with no effect

We have the mind of Christ as the power of Christ as it is written

 

[prism]

Greetings prism and Greetings again Red Baker,

Romans 1:1–7 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:32–36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV):1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 1:3 (KJV): That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

James 1:1 (KJV): James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


Jesus is a human, now exalted and sitting at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Jesus is fully God, fully man.
As far as the Jewish mind goes, are you saying that the Jewish mind is different today than at the time of Christ? If so, what made the difference?
Paul...
Philippians 3:5-6 KJV
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Or are you thinking in these terms?...
1 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Or this?...
Romans 3:9-10 KJV
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus is fully God, fully man.
As far as the Jewish mind goes, are you saying that the Jewish mind is different today than at the time of Christ? If so, what made the difference?
Paul...
Philippians 3:5-6 KJV
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Or are you thinking in these terms?...
1 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Or this?...
Romans 3:9-10 KJV
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Jewish mind? Sorry God is not a racist.

Sounds like a wile of the devil. Putting Peter as a Pope God a Jewish man as King of kings .


Mathew 16:22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Remember when the veil was rent there was no Jewish man as King of kings siting in the holy of holies . Satan could no longer deceive all the nations of the whole world God is a Jewish man as King of kings . At the end of the age he will again deceive dying mankind that God is a Jewish man as King of king .

Our king Christ reigns in our new born again hearts, soul and mind

Revelations 20: 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again prism,

As far as the Jewish mind goes, are you saying that the Jewish mind is different today than at the time of Christ?

I suggest that the Jewish mind in the time of Christ is the same as today, and is based on the simple and clear teaching of the OT. They find it very difficult to accept the Trinity which is based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy. Our major pioneer of our present fellowship experienced this when in 1958 he was invited to talk at a large gathering of Jews in New York. He had been invited to speak by a Trinitarian Jew who had failed to make any progress with his Jewish contemporaries. The Trinitarian Jew did not allow our pioneer to talk again after he expounded the OT teaching of the Yahweh Name.

A clear example of the Jewish mind is revealed in the following:
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

the Trinity which is based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy.

Proof?

 

[prism]

I suggest that the Jewish mind in the time of Christ is the same as today, and is based on the simple and clear teaching of the OT. They find it very difficult to accept the Trinity which is based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy. Our major pioneer of our present fellowship experienced this when in 1958 he was invited to talk at a large gathering of Jews in New York. He had been invited to speak by a Trinitarian Jew who had failed to make any progress with his Jewish contemporaries.

Perhaps we see the problem explained here...

Romans 11:25 NKJV
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

I believe John Thomas confuses the 4 living creatures and 24 elders who are immortal with the 144,000 who are mortal. They are not the same persons.

I am not sure that this gives much weight in the decision of accepting the continuous historic view or futurism. From memory, John Thomas first applies the 144,000 to events to mortals in the fourth Century. As a side issue I would be interested in how you understand the cherubim, the seraphim and the 4 living creatures. I consider my view and the Christadelphian view of these is rather unique.

I do not know if you still possess the Christadelphian "The Bible Companion". This contains "The Commandments of Christ" and a Bible Reading Chart which takes us through the OT once and the NT twice. This was introduced by Robert Roberts in the 1860's and has been widely used since then and most members in our meeting use this. Many cover all these readings each day, but I am only a 1/3rd Christadelphian and I read only one portion in the morning. This year I am reading the second portion, and this morning the reading was Daniel 2. I consider that Daniel 2 is a major foundation for the continuous historic view. The interpretation Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome is well established and the parallel prophecy of Daniel 7 is also well understood. My experience of the many diverse Futurist interpretations of Daniel, not only of these two chapters, but also the various time periods, is nothing short of speculative.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fred,

Proof?

The following extracts may go some way in establishing this:

History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.

Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.

Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again prism,

I suggest that the Jewish mind in the time of Christ is the same as today, and is based on the simple and clear teaching of the OT. They find it very difficult to accept the Trinity which is based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy. Our major pioneer of our present fellowship experienced this when in 1958 he was invited to talk at a large gathering of Jews in New York. He had been invited to speak by a Trinitarian Jew who had failed to make any progress with his Jewish contemporaries. The Trinitarian Jew did not allow our pioneer to talk again after he expounded the OT teaching of the Yahweh Name.

A clear example of the Jewish mind is revealed in the following:
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Trinitarian claims that “He” , “Him” , “I”, and “Me” is three persons.

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

I am not sure that this gives much weight in the decision of accepting the continuous historic view or futurism. From memory, John Thomas first applies the 144,000 to events to mortals in the fourth Century. As a side issue I would be interested in how you understand the cherubim, the seraphim and the 4 living creatures. I consider my view and the Christadelphian view of these is rather unique.

I do not know if you still possess the Christadelphian "The Bible Companion". This contains "The Commandments of Christ" and a Bible Reading Chart which takes us through the OT once and the NT twice. This was introduced by Robert Roberts in the 1860's and has been widely used since then and most members in our meeting use this. Many cover all these readings each day, but I am only a 1/3rd Christadelphian and I read only one portion in the morning. This year I am reading the second portion, and this morning the reading was Daniel 2. I consider that Daniel 2 is a major foundation for the continuous historic view. The interpretation Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome is well established and the parallel prophecy of Daniel 7 is also well understood. My experience of the many diverse Futurist interpretations of Daniel, not only of these two chapters, but also the various time periods, is nothing short of speculative.

Kind regards
Trevor

I would say that John’s going up in spirit through the door that was opened in heaven was not on a Sunday but rather the day of wrath. The day of the Lord, when God is to execute His written judgments upon His people and the nations by the man He appointed His executioner. They are Jesus and his immortal saints who will come with him to perform the work.
J. Thomas, I believe is correct when he identifies who the 24 elders and 4 living creatures are. That they are immortalized men(saints).
This means that Jesus and his immortalized saints are already in heaven when God’s judgments begin.
This begs the question as to who are the 144,000 mortals who follow Jesus.
A reasonable explanation is that from the time the faithful dead are raised and the living faithful translated, there we be a period of time for a following of believers to develop in Jerusalem.
This would mean Jesus’ second coming is in a two-fold sense.
Similarity, there was a period of 49 years or so after Jesus ascended to the Father and the Temple destroyed in AD 70.