Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[atpollard]

That incident found in Genesis 3 is a fine example of seeing how insight is needed at times to help explain what Scripture states .

Philippians 1:9 tells us we are to have insight, not simply chapter and verse that must tell us the insight.
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

The very thing that gets me into trouble with some who want what was discerned by insight to have its own chapter to show the insight.
Then the term "speculation" is bantered about and the insight is lost to the one who needed to consider.

Are you really setting as the CORNERSTONE of your exegetical philosophy, a word (αἰσθήσει - G144) that appears one time and in exactly ONE verse in the entire New Testament?
I was taught to require "two or three witnesses to establish a matter".

How unusual.

 

[atpollard]

The woman added to the Word of God for some reason.
That is where insight comes in, if insight is to be given.

Since scripture is silent on WHY she added the words, would any answer not fall under the heading of either "eisegesis" or "speculation" (by the definition of those terms) depending on how the answer was worded?

 

[GeneZ]

Are you really setting as the CORNERSTONE of your exegetical philosophy, a word (αἰσθήσει - G144) that appears one time and in exactly ONE verse in the entire New Testament?
I was taught to require "two or three witnesses to establish a matter".

How unusual.

When something is only mentioned once in the Bible its called a hapax legomenon.
Does that mean the hapax legomenon that appear throughout the Bible need to be deleted?



Just the same, we have more than enough witnesses to read what Eve said.
Those are the needed witnesses.

So... Please go back to what was said?

"Why did the woman add to the Word?"

God never told them not to "even touch" the fruit as the woman said.

Also..

Adam fell when he "ate."
Not while touching the fruit.

Eve added to the Word.

There is insight as to why she said that available.

Have a nice Day.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

To understand this correctly are you saying God wanted Adam to sin?

 

[GeneZ]

To understand this correctly are you saying God wanted Adam to sin?

If God stopped Balaam with his donkey speaking?
God could have stopped Adam.

Where does the leave us?


God did not want to stop Adam.

 

[Grumix88]

God did not want the fall of man but his divine plan to save his people was always use if things happen with the devil.

 

[Josheb]

Here is a perfect example of what I speak of. Same chapter. Genesis 3

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. ​

He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” ​

​

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ​

‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, ​

or you will die.’” Genesis 3:1-3.​

That command never said one must not touch the fruit. The woman added to the Word of God.

Do you have insight as to why she added to the command? There is a reason for me asking that.

Please, can you explain why the woman added to the Word of God? ......and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” Genesis 3:1-3.

I can explain it, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with you explaining God's plan for the fall and I know how to stay on topic. I also know how not to shift the onus, and how not to move goal posts.

So perhaps YOU could stay on topic and explain how this has anything to do with God's plan for the fall. That is, after all, the topic we are supposed to be discussing - the topic YOU are supposed to be explaining.


Satan "fell," or disobeyed God and became enslaved to sin by his own actions sometime between Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 3:1. Eve sinned first and then Adam at Genesis 3:6. Some details could be filled in using information from the psalms and other scriptures, but that is the basic timeline scripture gives us. No one here needs instruction for any of that because it's all laid out fairly well in the Genesis 1-3 record.

What we do not know is YOUR beliefs. What we do not know is YOUR answer to "Why did God plan for the fall of man?" We are almost 90 pages into this thread and still do not have YOUR answer to the question YOU asked in YOUR op. Do you realize this is YOUR op and in the opening post YOU ask at least five questions and five pages of posts later you have answered only one of them.

So, stop the griping and stow that off-topic rubbish about everyone needing insight and show some insight - the kind that answers the questions asked in this op.

• Why did God plan for the fall of man?
• Why did God plan for the fall before Adam and Eve were born?
• Why did God give the "green light" to have Adam fall?
• Did God want the fall to take place?
• Did the fall serve God's purpose to have it happen?

All questions asked in this opening post and only one of them has been answered. Let's not forget there are still a handful of my questions awaiting answers.

• When asked if God condoned sin the answer you gave was, "It looks bad, but in the long run it would work for God's glory." This is a utilitarian ethic whereby the ends justify the means. That is thoroughly incompatible with the premise God does not call good "evil," nor does He call evil, "good." How then can God plan for sin, want sin to occur, and then condone it because it works for His plan, and God's righteousness and goodness not be compromised?
• Did God plan for Jesus, or did God plan for sin? Did God plan Jesus. Did God plan sin? are the differences in these questions recognized?
• Post #44 states, "Adam was not in was called the Holy Mount of God. Nor were there fiery stones for Adam to walk among. It was a different Garden." There is a typographical error in that first non-sentence. Would you please clarify what that was intended to say? Is it being asserted Adam was not in the garden of Eden?
• Please cite the scriptures supporting the assertion satan walked in the garden in an unfallen state before tempting Eve. (I may have that particular statement confused with another poster so if it wasn't you who asserted the unfallen garden satan then ignore the request)
• What does satan having his desire have to do with God planning for the fall?
• What was satan's desire?

Just answer the questions asked. Help everyone understand. Focus on God and God's plan for the fall.

[Post edited by mod]

 

[atpollard]

God never told them not to "even touch" the fruit as the woman said.

Where did God tell the woman ANYTHING (Before the fall)?
That is EISEGESIS … you are reading what is not written.
We have no idea how Eve gained her information.

• Did God talk to Eve separate from God’s talk with Adam?
• Did Adam tell Eve what God has said?
  • Did Adam communicate incorrectly?
  • Did Eve add to what God had said?
• Was the information revealed by an Angel?

Scripture is silent, so all is speculation.

 

[ReverendRV]

Where did God tell the woman ANYTHING (Before the fall)?
That is EISEGESIS … you are reading what is not written.
We have no idea how Eve gained her information.

• Did God talk to Eve separate from God’s talk with Adam?
• Did Adam tell Eve what God has said?
  • Did Adam communicate incorrectly?
  • Did Eve add to what God had said?
• Was the information revealed by an Angel?

Scripture is silent, so all is speculation.

Touch and taste ~ by ReverendRV * November 22

Genesis 3:3 KJV; But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Did God really say that if Eve would touch that fruit, she would die? We read earlier in Genesis that God told Adam that if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil he would die; Eve added the part about the touch. Oh how the Serpent jumped on this mistake; he told her she surely would not die. Imagine her delight upon finding out that when she touched the fruit she didn’t die! The Serpent went on to tell her God knows when she eats the fruit she will be like God. No wonder she and Adam would eat the fruit after she didn’t die from the touch. But when they took a bite, their eyes were instantly opened and they saw their Nakedness; which was symbolic of their Spiritual death. ~ Sometimes we make it too easy for the Devil, don’t we? Not understanding the Truth well enough can be like not understanding it at all. But what if Eve understood the Truth better than we thought she did? Maybe she was a better helpmate to Adam than we think she was…

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life are symbolic of God’s Covenant of Works and his Covenant of Grace. Elsewhere in the Bible we find another analogy picturing two other women; Hagar and Sarah. Hagar symbolized Mount Sanai and Sarah symbolized spiritual Jerusalem. Mount Sanai represents the Covenant of Works, just like the Tree of Knowledge also represents it. The Ten Commandments epitomize the Covenant of Works; the Bible also calls them ‘killing letters’. ~ In the book of Exodus we are told that Mount Sanai was burning and quaking! God said that if the people approached the mountain to touch it, they would die. Have you approached this fierce mountain? Stones with writing on them have been cast to the ground; one says thou shalt not take the LORD’s name in vain. Have you ever used God’s name as a cuss word? Yes? You have touched the mountain! Your eyes are opened and you are naked before God! You look back at that cruel rock and see more writing; it says thou shalt not Murder. The Bible says that even if we break just one Commandment, we are guilty of broken them all. That boulder is covered with the Ten Commandments of God. You have spiritually died and will go to Hell as eternal punishment. Does this bother you even a little?

But there is a Tree of Life and there is a Spiritual Jerusalem; Mount Calvary. The second woman Sarah had a husband named Abraham. He obeyed the word of God and took his Promised son to Mount Calvary to be a burnt offering. God stopped Abraham from slaying his son that day and provided a substitute for the offering. Around 2000 years after this, Jesus Christ died on a Cross as a bloody sacrifice for Sin. Since he led a faultless Life, only Jesus was qualified to purge Sin from out of existence. He died and was buried three days but arose to life again; walking among witnesses for fifty days. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus, apart from Meritorious Works which we might be tempted to touch and taste. Repent of your Sins, find a Bible believing Church that will help you understand Truth better. ~ Was Eve the first Prophet of God? Did Eve really get the word of God right when she said that touching the Law would lead to certain death? She was wrong about her touching it because she was a pure Being, but she was right about our touching it as Fallen creatures…

Psalm 34:9 NIV; Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.

 

[GeneZ]

Where did God tell the woman ANYTHING (Before the fall)?
That is EISEGESIS … you are reading what is not written.
We have no idea how Eve gained her information.

• Did God talk to Eve separate from God’s talk with Adam?
• Did Adam tell Eve what God has said?
  • Did Adam communicate incorrectly?
  • Did Eve add to what God had said?
• Was the information revealed by an Angel?

Scripture is silent, so all is speculation.

Adam told her.....

 

[Josheb]

@GeneZ , @Ladodgers6 , @Marilyn C , @CrowCross , @Rella , @atpollard , @ReverendRV , the lurkers and anyone I may have left out,


I'd like to make an observation and a recommendation.

The observation: Everyone is being baited by a variety of off-topic comments and inquiries. Whether intended or not, their function is to distract from the question asked in the title of this op: Why did God plan for the fall? As I have already observed: that question is not being answered; it is being avoided. As a result, the thread is breaking down into multiple tangents, none of which will answer the op's inquiry unless those distracted bring the digression(s) back to the question asked in this op.

The recommendation: Help @GeneZ . Help him stay on topic. Help him focus his posts on answering his own question. Help him stay on topic and explain his views on why God planned for the fall. Help yourselves and help each other.


@GeneZ ,

Why did God plan for the fall?

Prove God planned the fall, prove God planned for the fall, and then explain why.

 

[Ladodgers6]

If God stopped Balaam with his donkey speaking?
God could have stopped Adam.

Where does the leave us?


God did not want to stop Adam.

The question is, did God want Adam to sin? It's not about God stopping Adam, as I said before, God gave Adam Total Free-Will, and made a Covenant with Adam. Adam chose freely to disobey God by his own free choice. This is a huge difference from what you are saying.

You suggest that God wanted Adam to sin, right? I am opposed to this idea of yours. If God coerced or planned for Adam to sin, then God is the author of evil. Which is contrary to Scripture. God wanted Adam to be Faithful in the Covenant made, but failed due to his own actions.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

No need to keep asking the same question that I have already answered more than once.

You didn't answer it or clarify it, that's why I keep asking.

 

[Josheb]

I am trying to build a needed foundation rather than just leaping to the end result.

I believe you.

The problem is a very poor job of building the foundation has occurred because the posts are all about Adam and Eve and Job and satan and everyone but God.

Start with God!

Why? Because He is the foundation of His plan! Start with God because God's plan was made before anything was created, before any of the creatures in the Bible (angelic, human or not) ever existed. Everyone here (so far) agrees on this point. That is the foundation. Furthermore, it should not take 100 posts to "build a foundation." That stretches the limits of reason, not only our patience. The question to be answered is...


Why did God plan for the fall of man?

Prove He planned the fall. Then prove He planned for the fall. Then explain why. That is the foundation that should be built. Why? Because to assume that which needs to be proven is called begging the question and begging the question is always and everywhere a logical fallacy. Do not expect us to accept the premise before it is proven. Build the foundation that justifies talking about Adam and Eve and Job and satan. Build that foundation first. It won't take 100 posts if done concisely. Stay on topic and please keep the posts about the posts, not the posters .


Why did God plan for the fall of man?

Great question, @GeneZ, why did God plan for the fall of man?

 

[GeneZ]

Why did God plan for the fall of man?

Great question, @GeneZ, why did God plan for the fall of man?

To set a trap for His enemies to make them into His footstool.

Yes. that's what I said.

Problem is. You have too many apparent preconceived concepts that need to be settled before I can bring it to what you ask for.

One being, some here keep claiming Satan fell in the Garden just shortly before Adam fell.
Satan and his angels fell and were in conflict with God in prehistoric times.
God created man when God chose to create man, to resolve that prehistoric angelic conflict.

Man was always to be created in God's mind. Its the timing of that creation that God brought in to begin
to put an end to the endless lies and denials that Satan had been presenting in his denial of God being righteous and just.

If I can't get past that way of thinking? I might as well take my melting pot elsewhere.

 

[sawdust]

To set a trap for His enemies to make them into His footstool.

Yes. that's what I said.

Problem is. You have too many apparent preconceived concepts that need to be settled before I can bring it to what you ask for.

One being, some here keep claiming Satan fell in the Garden just shortly before Adam fell.
Satan and his angels fell and were in conflict with God in prehistoric times.
God created man when God chose to create man, to resolve that prehistoric angelic conflict.

Man was always to be created in God's mind. Its the timing of that creation that God brought in to begin
to put an end to the endless lies and denials that Satan had been presenting in his denial of God being righteous and just.

If I can't get past that way of thinking? I might as well take my melting pot elsewhere.

I'm still waiting to hear the end of the story. If you can ignore all those disagreeing with your reasoning before you even give it or asking questions not realising that sometimes the unfolding of the story answers one's questions along the way, then I promise to be quiet until the end.

 

[Ladodgers6]

To set a trap for His enemies to make them into His footstool.

Yes. that's what I said.

Problem is. You have too many apparent preconceived concepts that need to be settled before I can bring it to what you ask for.

One being, some here keep claiming Satan fell in the Garden just shortly before Adam fell.
Satan and his angels fell and were in conflict with God in prehistoric times.
God created man when God chose to create man, to resolve that prehistoric angelic conflict.

Man was always to be created in God's mind. Its the timing of that creation that God brought in to begin
to put an end to the endless lies and denials that Satan had been presenting in his denial of God being righteous and just.

If I can't get past that way of thinking? I might as well take my melting pot elsewhere.

Without getting into the realm of speculation, why trap them in the first place? Which leads to the obvious question...

 

[GeneZ]

Without getting into the realm of speculation, why trap them in the first place? Which leads to the obvious question...

How did the prophet Nathan trap David into confessing his guilt concerning the murder of Bathsheba's husband?

Read 2 Samuel 12.

 

[Ladodgers6]

How did the prophet Nathan trap David into confessing his guilt concerning the murder of Bathsheba's husband?

Read 2 Samuel 12.

This is not apples for apples. Both are already fallen creatures, right?

If you planned to kill somebody, maybe your wife for example. Would you be guilty?

 

[GeneZ]

This is not apples for apples. Both are already fallen creatures, right?

If you planned to kill somebody, maybe your wife for example. Would you be guilty?

​

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ ​

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has ​

already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mat 5:27-28​

Lucifer had murdered the Lord in his "heart."