Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[Ladodgers6]

Wait a minute.. I thought you were running parallel to what I said.

I thought you were saying he only planned it in his mind. Now you mean had begun arranging plans to have her murdered?
That's another story.

Its not parallel to the Lord being murdered in Lucifer's heart before any angel knew what murder was.

The point I am addressing is that God did not coerce, cause, Adam to sin. This would make God the author of evil. Adam fell by his own free choice to fulfill his own desires, disobeying God and breaking the Covenant with his faithlessness.​

 

[GeneZ]

.............

The point I am addressing is that God did not coerce, cause, Adam to sin. This would make God the author of evil. Adam fell by his own free choice to fulfill his own desires, disobeying God and breaking the Covenant with his faithlessness.​

Just because a father wanted to teach his children a lesson about disobedience?

Does not mean the father made his children to be disobedient so he could teach them..

 

[Mod 5]

The thread has been reviewed and all off-topic or other rule violating content has been removed. Please return to the topic of God's plan for the fall. If the thread turns to bickering, passive aggressive comments, runs far afield of the op, or evidence repeated violations of the Forum's Rules then the thread will either be closed, or the violating poster(s) excluded from the discussion.

A few scriptures to keep in mind:

Isaiah 1:18-20
"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool. If you consent and obey, you will eat the best of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Proverbs 15:1-5
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, but the mouth of fools spouts folly. The eyes of the LORD are in every place, watching the evil and the good. A soothing tongue is a tree of life, but perversion in it crushes the spirit. A fool rejects his father's discipline, but he who regards reproof is sensible.

Ephesians 4:29-32
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Blessings

 

[GeneZ]

Would you mind clarifying that because the "for" creates some ambiguity. Did God plan the fall? Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall? Or did God have an already-existing plan for creation that was always going to happen and conclude exactly as God had already determined even when the fall occurred?

Now, if God knew man would fall?
And, God did know.

And, in God knowing man would fall?
God made a plan to deal with the fall.

This what I said concerning God making his plan...

GeneZ said:
God already planned for the Fall of Man.

Please tell me?
How would you have worded it differently as to avoid the confusion you had with how I said it?

thank you ................

 

[Ladodgers6]

God decreed that Adam would sin from his own free will.
(do you know what that means?)

I don't know if this is a matter of semantics. God allowed or permitted the fall to happen, this is way different than God purposely making Adam sin. Decreeing that he sin.

 

[GeneZ]

I don't know if this is a matter of semantics. God allowed or permitted the fall to happen, this is way different than God purposely making Adam sin. Decreeing that he sin.

Why do you keep wandering to where I did not go?

To me you are talking about what someone else may have said.

Let him answer.

 

[Josheb]

Just because a father wanted to teach his children a lesson about disobedience?

Is that a question? If so then the answer is, "No!" and it appears Ladodgers, you, and I have agreement when saying God did not cause Adam to sin.

Does not mean the father made his children to be disobedient so he could teach them..

Again, the answer is, No," because God can teach His children in any number of ways, a strictly utilitarian ethic is unscriptural, and while it is true God sovereignly reigned over disobedience to teach the disobedient even through their disobedience separated them from a right relationship and obedience is much more effective a teaching method.

The plan component is that God's goal was to make a people unlike any other; a people indwelt with His own Spirit and Adam's sin did not change that plan one bit. In fact, through disobedience the redeemed, regenerate saved believer learns things the angels who fell never learn. We, the saints, know of God's mercy, His grace, His forgiveness, His reconciliation in ways the angels who did not keep their proper place will never know. One day some of us will judge some of them! Those who did not fall are our ministering spirits. Made lower than angels we will all one day be crowned.


Hebrews 2:5-12
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”


That is God's plan.

God created a good world (Gen. 1:31). The world and the creation in which the earth spins, was good and sinless. As far as the earth goes, scripture states Eve was the first sinner (1 Tim. 2:14), but it also states that it was through one man's disobedience that sin enter the world (Rom. 5:12). The timeline also implies the adversary rebelled before Eve's sin, and having been cast down out of heaven, he found himself on earth under the authority of the good, unashamed, and sinless Adam and Eve..... who were made good and sinless but corruptible. They were not made already corrupted; they were made corruptible. They could disobey God.

God made creation good, but full of yet-to-be-realized dialectics, one of which was obedience or disobedience. The adversary, his followers, Eve, and then Adam, all chose the latter, and because the design structures of creation are such that sin brings death, they all found themselves dead in sin. Not a problem for God because God's Son was already foreknown to enter the earth, made flesh in the likeness of humans, taking on the role of a bondservant even though he owed no debt. That was all decided prior t a single atom ever being breathed into existence. These pre-existing structures dictated the sinning angels face destruction, along with the unrepentant human sinner, but it also dictated the elect, those in Christ, would not receive destruction but eternal life.

From before the beginning this was all decided.

 

[Josheb]

Now, if God knew man would fall? And, God did know. And, in God knowing man would fall? God made a plan to deal with the fall.
This what I said concerning God making his plan... Please tell me?


How would you have worded it differently as to avoid the confusion you had with how I said it?

thank you ................

I believe I have already answered that question and done so in multiple posts, but for the sake of goodwill I will do so again.


God planned creation. God planned creation and God had a plan for creation. God did not plan the fall. God did not have to plan the fall, nor did God have to plan for the fall, because the fall is inconsequential to His plan and His pre-existing plan already, (preemptively, if you like) already addressed all possible secondary causes and all their contingencies - realized or never realized. The adversary disobeyed God and his fate was already decided before he did so. The purpose he'd serve in God's plan was already decided and every choice he freely made and every act he freely worked all conspired to see God's plan for creation manifest. The same holds true of Adam's disobedience. Adam was always going to die, one way or another. He was made mortal and the plan was to take a people who were previously corruptible and mortal, and raise them incorruptible and mortal. That they became corrupted did not change the already-existing plan one bit. As I posted earlier,

God looked at Adam's disobedience, shrugged His omnipotently divine shoulders and said, "Meh... already got it covered; not a problem."

Sin is a problem for humans, not God. He did not need a plan "for" the fall because the plan that preceded the fall already addressed the cause(s) and all the contingencies thereof.

When understanding the "fall," we want to make sure our views do not make God or His plan dependent on sin. That is a self-contradictory position, self-refuting, and logically untenable with the premise of an omni-attributed righteous Creator.

God planed creation and the fall was covered by the plan without having to make a special part of the plan specifically for the fall.

That's how I word it.

 

[Arial]

Wait a minute.. I thought you were running parallel to what I said.

I thought you were saying he only planned it in his mind. Now you mean had begun arranging plans to have her murdered?
That's another story.

Its not parallel to the Lord being murdered in Lucifer's heart before any angel knew what murder was.

I have a question. Why did God plan for the fall of Adam? Secondary question: Did He plan for the fall? I would like to have your answer, in you own words, in one post (the one in response to this) and in clear language.
Thanks.

 

[CrowCross]

Unfallen state? Can you show me this?

Start with Eze 28:11 ish...

‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

 

[CrowCross]

???? Isaiah 14:12-14 does not state Satan walked in the Garden in an unfallen state. In fact, the portion of verse 12 that states, "You have been cut down to the earth," appears to say they exact opposite. He was cut down, and his cutting down placed him on earth. He was cut down to earth having previously fallen from heaven.

Is there some other scriptural basis and/or support for the premise Satan/Lucifer "walked in the garden in an unfallen state"?

There is also ezekiel

‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

 

[makesends]

Is that a question? If so then the answer is, "No!" and it appears Ladodgers, you, and I have agreement when saying God did not cause Adam to sin.

Again, the answer is, No," because God can teach His children in any number of ways, a strictly utilitarian ethic is unscriptural, and while it is true God sovereignly reigned over disobedience to teach the disobedient even through their disobedience separated them from a right relationship and obedience is much more effective a teaching method.

The plan component is that God's goal was to make a people unlike any other; a people indwelt with His own Spirit and Adam's sin did not change that plan one bit. In fact, through disobedience the redeemed, regenerate saved believer learns things the angels who fell never learn. We, the saints, know of God's mercy, His grace, His forgiveness, His reconciliation in ways the angels who did not keep their proper place will never know. One day some of us will judge some of them! Those who did not fall are our ministering spirits. Made lower than angels we will all one day be crowned.


Hebrews 2:5-12
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”


That is God's plan.

God created a good world (Gen. 1:31). The world and the creation in which the earth spins, was good and sinless. As far as the earth goes, scripture states Eve was the first sinner (1 Tim. 2:14), but it also states that it was through one man's disobedience that sin enter the world (Rom. 5:12). The timeline also implies the adversary rebelled before Eve's sin, and having been cast down out of heaven, he found himself on earth under the authority of the good, unashamed, and sinless Adam and Eve..... who were made good and sinless but corruptible. They were not made already corrupted; they were made corruptible. They could disobey God.

God made creation good, but full of yet-to-be-realized dialectics, one of which was obedience or disobedience. The adversary, his followers, Eve, and then Adam, all chose the latter, and because the design structures of creation are such that sin brings death, they all found themselves dead in sin. Not a problem for God because God's Son was already foreknown to enter the earth, made flesh in the likeness of humans, taking on the role of a bondservant even though he owed no debt. That was all decided prior t a single atom ever being breathed into existence. These pre-existing structures dictated the sinning angels face destruction, along with the unrepentant human sinner, but it also dictated the elect, those in Christ, would not receive destruction but eternal life.

From before the beginning this was all decided.

I can't help but think you and I simply have a semantics difference.

Does God decree all things whatsoever comes to pass? I think you would say that yes, he does. Does God cause all things whatsoever comes to pass? You would say no —at least, that God did not cause anyone to sin. I say yes, EVERYTHING that is decreed is caused, and God is first cause. All else, results —caused. Do you get around this by saying that only sin is not caused by God, it being only the privation of good, and not properly of itself a "thing"?

"Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"

 

[makesends]

Start with Eze 28:11 ish...

‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

I see no reason to think from this that the Serpent was unfallen when tempting Eve.

 

[CrowCross]

I see no reason to think from this that the Serpent was unfallen when tempting Eve.

Satan, the serpent, fell prior to tempting Eve.

It is unknown how long the time period between day 7 when God announced all creation was VERY GOOD and the tempting of Eve.

 

[GeneZ]

I have a question. Why did God plan for the fall of Adam?

Because God knew it was going to happen.
Does not someone board up the windows when they know a hurricane is coming?

Secondary question: Did He plan for the fall?

The fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, I believe answers that question for you.

 

[GeneZ]

Start with Eze 28:11 ish...

‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

Different Eden.

The angels had their Garden in heaven.
Adam had his on earth.

Just as the tabernacle on earth was a parallel to the tabernacle in Heaven!

​

They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. ​

This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: ​

“See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on​

the mountain.” Hebrews 8:4b-5​

What was in Heaven God had a copy made of it on earth!
And, where do we ever see fiery stones to be found in the Garden Adam walked in?

“You were the seal of perfection,​

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.​

You were in Eden, the garden of God;​

Every precious stone was your covering:​

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,​

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,​

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.​

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes​

Was prepared for you on the day you were created. ​

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;​

I established you;​

You were on the holy mountain of God;​

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.​

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,​

Till iniquity was found in you.​

​

Ezekiel 28:12-15​

Again?

Where do we see any fiery stones to be found in the Garden Adam walked in?

And, also again?

The angels had their own tabernacle in Heaven.
Their's was the one that the one on earth was a copy of!


We are here to think..... Not to simply repeat for a written test without thinking.

God has these truths placed in the Word to make us think!

Philippians 1:9​

​

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

grace and peace ..................

 

[CrowCross]

Different Eden.

Where does the bible mention 2 gardens both called Eden?

The angels had their Garden in heaven.
Adam had his on earth.

Just as the tabernacle on earth was a parallel to the tabernacle in Heaven!

​

They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. ​

This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: ​

“See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on​

the mountain.” Hebrews 8:4b-5​

What was in Heaven God had a copy made of it on earth!
And, where do we ever see fiery stones to be found in the Garden Adam walked in?

Where does the bible say the garden was a copy?

“You were the seal of perfection,​

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.​

You were in Eden, the garden of God;​

Every precious stone was your covering:​

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,​

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,​

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.​

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes​

Was prepared for you on the day you were created. ​

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;​

I established you;​

You were on the holy mountain of God;​

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.​

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,​

Till iniquity was found in you.​

​

Ezekiel 28:12-15​

Again?

Where do we see any fiery stones to be found in the Garden Adam walked in?

What are the fiery stones?

And, also again?

The angels had their own tabernacle in Heaven.
Their's was the one that the one on earth was a copy of!


We are here to think..... Not to simply repeat for a written test without thinking.

God has these truths placed in the Word to make us think!

Philippians 1:9​

​

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

grace and peace ..................

You continue to present speculation as biblical truth.

 

[Josheb]

I have a question. Why did God plan for the fall of Adam? Secondary question: Did He plan for the fall? I would like to have your answer, in you own words, in one post (the one in response to this) and in clear language.
Thanks.

There's a word that's rarely being used in these conversations: the word "had," or "have."

Why did God have to plan for the fall? God had to plan for the fall. The had-to/have-to implies a necessity and a necessity implies requirement, determinism, obligation, as well as a potential lack on His part (because X is a problem and if He doesn't plan for X then X will continue to be a problem.... for Him). All of that is antithetical to divine omni-attributes.

The potential problems holding a correct knowledge and understanding of "God's plan for the fall" is not only that God planning the fall AND planning for the fall are at least potential) problems because God is not the author of sin and neither God nor His plan can be dependent on sin or its necessity. It is also that any creaturely necessity or product of creation cannot be more power than God.

 

[Josheb]

There is also ezekiel

‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13You were in Eden, the garden of God.

???
Not sure how that is relevant to what I posted (although I do understand it applies to content others have posted). Do you read verse 12 and 13 to be simultaneously occurring or sequential in occurrence. If the former, then how is that reconciled with the Eden and its garden and the garden being on earth with the fact the adversary was cast down as the adversary to earth? His being in Eden would then occur after his fall, after his being the seal of perfection. Similarly, if the serpent is an animal in the garden and Adam (and Eve) are given power and authority over all the animals in the garden the, logically, Adam (and Eve) had authority (and power) over the serpent (not the other way around) and failed to exercise it (which would be another aspect of disobedience beside that of their eating the forbidden kiwi).

In other words, they disobeyed God twice in a single act: First, by not ruling over the serpent and then again by eating the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden. Notice Paul's Romans 5 commentary does not specify the act of disobedience. Adam and Eve were given two commands; one positively asserted as an affirmative set of actions and the second one negatively asserted as a prohibited action.

1. Multiple, subdue, and rule.
2. Do not eat.

Failing the former command potentially leads to being subdued and ruled. Failing the latter command leads to death. The consequences of each were both prescribed prior to the existence of any angel, either human and any tree and its fruit.

 

[Josheb]

I can't help but think you and I simply have a semantics difference.

Does God decree all things whatsoever comes to pass?

Well, the word is "ordained," not "decreed." I'm not interested in splitting hairs, but "decree" is one, but not the only definition of "ordain," and the Bible itself uses the term in diverse ways. They are not all causal. We should not be defining the term in any way contrary to the whole of scripture. For the sake of this exchange, I'd stick to the words of the Confession and not change them.

I would also not inject an "only" into that sentence because God decreed a plethora of conditions besides "things whatsoever come to pass." I would also read the "whatsoever comes to pass" within the limits stipulated by the rest of the article and the rest of the confession. He did not author sin. He does no violence to creaturely volition or secondary causes and their contingencies.

Does God cause all things whatsoever comes to pass? You would say no —at least, that God did not cause anyone to sin. I say yes, EVERYTHING that is decreed is caused, and God is first cause.

The problem there is that is a selective use of the Confession. The Confession itself provides its own stipulations for its own assertions. There is a very big, important, and necessary "yet" in the first statement. There are also two "nors".

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.​

Reading the first clause as if it is stated independent of the other clauses is incorrect practice. Article 3.1 is not four separate statements. It's a single statement with multiple conditioned clauses.

All else, results —caused.

Many of which are "secondary," and the secondary cause have their own contingencies - and to neither of which did God's decrees do violence.

Do you get around this by saying that only sin is not caused by God, it being only the privation of good, and not properly of itself a "thing"?

"Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"

I believe I have made my position clear. I believe the WCF is also clear and not ambiguous in any way. Whatever God ordained (and God ordained whatsoever comes to pass) He ordained without authoring sin and without doing violence to human volition, and without doing violence to secondary causes and their contingencies. As I believe I have already posted, the WCF asserts sin as something not authored by God; it asserts human volitional agency, and it asserts the existence of secondary causes and it asserts those secondary causes have contingencies.

If you're going to subscribe to the WCF then subscribe to all of it and all of it exactly as stated.

Or, if you have areas of disagreement then acknowledge those differences as YOUR points of disagreement and don't impose them on others. I have points of disagreement with the WCF (none relevant to this thread) and I try not to use the WCF as a common measure in those areas.